New festool vac/saw setup questions

[jhark123]

Santa will be bringing me a new ct26 for christmas, but I am trying to decide what hoses to set it up with.

When I am doing finish carpentry I have three tools set-up for which I would like to have dust extraction: A miter saw (most use), Ras 115 for coping and a table saw.

The vac gets setup behind the mitersaw and the ras will sit on top of the vac with the Table saw setup where ever there is room.

I will be getting the Y adapter and then I was thinking I would substitute for the 16' or 22' D36 hose when I ordered the vac, then cut the hose to make two, is there an adapter so that I can connect the D36 to the ras 115?  I was thinking the D36 because sometimes the long hose will be connect to the table saw or ts55.

The other option is to get an 8' D50 hose in addition to the D27 that comes with the vac (would this collect dust better on the miter saw?)

One consideration is that I will be doing lead paint sanding with the ras, so the longer the hose the better. (I could cut the 22' d36 at 6' leaving myself with a 16' long hose)

Thanks for your help, I'm sandbagged by the options.

 

[nickao]

I have found that using the largest diameter, shortest hose you can use comfortably for each job is always best. So just follow those rules.

Use 50 as short as you can when you can. The 22 as short as you can when needed, etc.

And make a blast gate for the Y as the vac always work better with one side of the Y closed off,unless both hoses on the Y go to the same tool. Which does not mean you have to make a blast gate, just that it always works a bit better with a gate if you are only using one tool. I always wondered why Festool just does not make the Y with a blast gate on at least on one side to begin with.

The small hose is the one I use for sanding because it is the most comfortable and it still catches every bit of dust, but for the larger tools the bigger hoses are best. If the larger hoses were comfortable I would use them for sanding as well.

 

[Sparktrician]

Since you've said that you'll be using the RAS to cut lead paint, I'd recommend against using the CT, and instead rent a dust extractor that is designed specifically for lead abatement.  Check with the environmental protection folks in your community for requirements and recommendations. 

[smile]

 

[chrisrosenb]

Since you've said that you'll be using the RAS to cut lead paint, I'd recommend against using the CT, and instead rent a dust extractor that is designed specifically for lead abatement.  Check with the environmental protection folks in your community for requirements and recommendations. 

[smile]

The CT26/36 & the CT22/33 have HEPA filters. You are the first I have heard to say not to use them for lead abatement.

 

[Sparktrician]

Since you've said that you'll be using the RAS to cut lead paint, I'd recommend against using the CT, and instead rent a dust extractor that is designed specifically for lead abatement.  Check with the environmental protection folks in your community for requirements and recommendations. 

[smile]

The CT26/36 & the CT22/33 have HEPA filters. You are the first I have heard to say not to use them for lead abatement.

Chris, I understand about the HEPA filters.  I do think it wiser to use someone else's equipment that is dedicated to lead abatement, rather than risk contaminating one's own equipment.  I'm also suggesting it wise to bone up on local requirements before proceeding. 

[smile]

 

[jhark123]

Thanks for the advice sparky, but we don't need to turn this into a discussion on which vac is best for lead abatement.

I am a GC and will be taking the RRP class in a month.  It's a dedicated HEPA vac and that's good enough for me.  I have no interest in wasting 1k on a alto or netfisk that won't transport my systainers.

Thanks

 

[jhark123]

Another question.  For the 50mm hose, so miter/table saws need the antistatic hose?

 

[AlexThePalex]

It's a dedicated HEPA vac and that's good enough for me. 

I don't think it's a dedicated hepa vac. It only has hepa rated filters. For full hepa compliance a lot more has to be done.

 

[WarnerConstCo.]

It's a dedicated HEPA vac and that's good enough for me. 

I don't think it's a dedicated hepa vac. It only has hepa rated filters. For full hepa compliance a lot more has to be done.

not really.

That just requires filters being certified along with a sealed container.

The rules/definitions are so vague and full of mumbo jumbo anyways.

 

[jhark123]

The type of lead work I would be doing falls under the jurisdiction of the American EPA RRP rules.  The type of vacuum is specified in the rule here:

"Final rule requirements. Vacuums used as part of the work practices being finalized in this final rule must be HEPA vacuums which are to be used and emptied in a manner that minimizes the reentry of lead into the workplace. The term "HEPA vacuum'' is defined as a vacuum which has been designed with a HEPA filter as the last filtration stage. A HEPA filter is a filter that is capable of capturing particles of 0.3 microns with 99.97% efficiency. The vacuum cleaner must be designed so that all the air drawn into the machine is expelled through the filter with none of the air leaking past it."

To me, the Festool vacuum meets this definition.  Fein has specifically stated that their Turbo I-III qualifies.  As the EPA has no certification standard or list, it's all speculative.

Here is a JLC article on the subject: http://www.jlconline.com/cgi-bin/jlconline.storefront/EN/UserTemplate/69?c=2ffdea612e95959a378d70524c180929#EPA

 

[Ken Nagrod]

Rick Bush from Festool and I had a good discussion about this when we were at the Baltimore, Maryland show.  He feels that it's kind of a big joke the whole HEPA regs.  Vacs can't totally seal what's going in them from the exhaust. Usually there's leakage around the motor to container seal even with the best of them.  I agree with him and also agree when he said that you try and do the best you can, but you'll never achieve the ideal standards of the regs.

 

[jhark123]

I agree with that sentiment.

The actual goal is to protect children under 6 from exposure to harmful levels of lead dust.  By laying 6mil in the area and using hepa vacs on tools with integrated dust extraction, that achieves the goal.

The way the government has implemented this regulation is ridiculous and the $300 fee for nothing to each firm is truly ridiculous (and hurts our bottom line against the hacks).

 

[semenza]

Hi,

I would go with .....

    The D36 for routers (except OF1010), power planes, Kapex and TS55 / 75 when cutting MDF.

    The D27 for everything else.

    Both in Anti-static.

Seth

srs

 

[Jesse Cloud]

Rick Bush from Festool and I had a good discussion about this when we were at the Baltimore, Maryland show.  He feels that it's kind of a big joke the whole HEPA regs.  Vacs can't totally seal what's going in them from the exhaust. Usually there's leakage around the motor to container seal even with the best of them.  I agree with him and also agree when he said that you try and do the best you can, but you'll never achieve the ideal standards of the regs.

I'll confess that I used to work for a regulatory agency (in their computer department), knew lots of people involved with writing, inspecting, enforcing regs.  Its a real mess.  Congress passes a law, which is usually poorly written.  The regulators have to write a reg to implement the law whether they agree with it or not.  The fact that there is no device on the market that can do what the law requires is no excuse, they still have to publish the reg and hope that it will motivate someone to develop that device. 
What they do to make the whole thing somewhat workable is to give examples of how a reg might be complied with or to 'certify' products that 'may meet the reg.'  Generally, if you have a certified product, they will not bug you, whether its actually doing the job or not.  Alternatively, they cannot force you to use one of the certified products - you can do it your own way as long as you meet the intent of the reg BUT its incumbent on you to prove that what you do meets the reg.  Understandably, most everyone does what the reg "suggests."
To make it even more complicated, many agencies, including the EPA have "Agreement States" where the state may choose to enforce the regulation instead of the EPA doing it.  Different states have different motivations for doing this and thats all I'm saying on that [wink].  The Agencies are supposed to ensure that the Agreement States enforce the regs consistently, but as one senior manager told me "its complicated."
Jeez, I'm glad I'm retired.  Wood makes a lot more sense.

 

[Kevin Stricker]

There is a difference between HEPA vacs and standard vacs, and a filter is only part of it.  Otherwise you could buy a $20 shop vac from home depot with a $30 HEPA filter and a dust bag and viola instant HEPA vac......

The Fein vac is your best (cheapest)bet if you want to be compliant, the main difference is with the seal on the vacuum and the HEPA vac bags.  At least take the class first and/or  check with your local code enforcer, otherwise you may end up with 2 vacs.

A Y adaptor without a blast gate is not going to be acceptable either as you will decrease your vac pressure dramatically if you are using a large diameter hose to your chop/table saw.  The 36 for the chop and table saw will work well, it will be bulky for sanding though.  Consider buying the  Tradesman/Installer Cleaning Set to get your larger hose.

If you plan to use your CT for general shop use you really should get a separate vac for lead abatement, especially if you have kids of your own.

 

[Brice Burrell]

........What they do to make the whole thing somewhat workable is to give examples of how a reg might be complied with or to 'certify' products that 'may meet the reg.'  Generally, if you have a certified product, they will not bug you, whether its actually doing the job or not.....

There in lays the problem with the vacs for the new RRP rules, there are no certified products, period.

......The Fein vac is your best (cheapest)bet if you want to be compliant....

Kevin, I've read conflicting posts on the net about what Fein says about their vacs.  I read they put it writing that their vacs comply and I've read they only give you in writing the specs from the testing they had done, which doesn't necessarily mean they comply.  Anyone know what they really give you in writing??

 

[Ken Nagrod]

Kevin,

Rick was trying to get across to me and in turn others that HEPA vacs do not have a 100% seal from returning particulate matter back into the air that is supposed to be filtered out.  No company has designed something so perfect it could receive such a certification.  When going through my RRP, the instructor was careful to point out that you try and follow the letter of the law as best as humanly possible and that's what the inspectors want after their personal interpretation of the rules.  Yes, there are many interpretations, but they can't ask for more than you can properly deliver for real world compliance.  There are so few inspectors relative to contractors and enforcement is quite difficult, so if you're making an honest attempt to comply, don't sweat it.

 

[nickao]

Its crap. If the newer Hepa vacs are the best we can do then that's better than the nothing my grandpa worked in for 50 years! I even went no mask in old buildings when I was a young teen.

The point should be to make it safer and the point should not be to meet some unattainable standard. This standard can make everyone sneak around and probably use a less effective method than the higher end vacs that supposedly do not meet the standard.!

 

[Sean7a]

........What they do to make the whole thing somewhat workable is to give examples of how a reg might be complied with or to 'certify' products that 'may meet the reg.'  Generally, if you have a certified product, they will not bug you, whether its actually doing the job or not.....

There in lays the problem with the vacs for the new RRP rules, there are no certified products, period.

......The Fein vac is your best (cheapest)bet if you want to be compliant....

Kevin, I've read conflicting posts on the net about what Fein says about their vacs.  I read they put it writing that their vacs comply and I've read they only give you in writing the specs from the testing they had done, which doesn't necessarily mean they comply.  Anyone know what they really give you in writing??

Well put Brice, there are ZERO EPA certified vacs.  Aside from the small quote someone posted above, there is no guideline, spec sheet, standardized testing to allow a manufacturer to create or a customer to know they are purchasing an EPA certified vac.  End of story.

In regards to Fein, they have chose to claim that their vacs are EPA certified.  This is not an EPA proclamation, rather Fein pushing the envelope.  It's a large risk.  Consider a contractor who purchases a Fein, under the impression it's EPA certified, only to be fined $36k by the EPA.  Fein's legal staff will have quite a mess on their hands once said contractor approaches them looking for retribution of damages.

 

[jhark123]

What I read from Fein stated that they felt their vac complied with the snipet I posted above.  I don't remember anything saying "certified."