New Guide Rail Square - Made in Canada

[ChuckM]

You would need to look at the patent to know if it is infringing.

It doesn't matter at all if TSO indeed has not filed for a Canadian patent, since the Insta Square is being sold in Canada and not the US. The same plight the SAWSTOP is in. On the other hand, if TSO held a Canadian patent, that's outright infringement and I would not support this Canadian product.

Perhaps TSO will shed some new light on the topic over the weekend or so.

As for the 45-degree edge feature, I will wait for a user review before thinking it is useful in practice. The mitre edge, good in theory, doesn't seem to be long enough to register for dead-on long mitre panel cuts.

 

[Oldwood]

"If TSO held a Canadian patent,"
A patent on what? We need to know what the details to know if the patent has been infringed on. The TSO square is somewhat similar to the Qwas square and some of the other previous offerings. There is probably some innovative portion of the TSO product that is covered in the patent.

It will be interesting to see what the result of this is. [popcorn]

 

[ben_r_]

Anyone know the patent number? All I can find is "Patent Pending" statements. Isnt there a number assigned to the application while its pending?

 

[Svar]

A patent on what? We need to know what the details to know if the patent has been infringed on. The TSO square is somewhat similar to the Qwas square and some of the other previous offerings. There is probably some innovative portion of the TSO product that is covered in the patent.

If I had to guess it's how it fastens to the rail: hooks into bottom t-slot and clamps to the top one pressing horizontally towards the rail edge. Quick, strong, accurate, and repeatable. That's the key feature, which many seem to disregard making it about "inventing" a square.
All other squares are simply fastened with t-slot nuts, potentially allowing some wiggle room in horizontal plane.

Hopefully it will be settled nicely and results in better products.

 

[nickao]

If it's patent pending they don't  have the patent, it very well could be it's denied and the people selling this square will get a patent themselves!

Right off a link from the patent office regarding patent pending items:

Therefore, it would not be appropriate to allow patent applicants to stop others from making, using, selling, and importing the invention (e.g. patent rights) described in their patent application because it is possible the Patent Office might later determine a patent should not be granted.


This alone should of stopped Dan from pulling anything at all.

There are provisional rights, but until the patent has been granted and the company feels they want to go after someone everything these guys selling this new square are doing is legal in Canada and the US.

Dan  should put that back on his site becasue he is hurting the people making it, who are we to decide TSO is the one that is in the right, that's not our call at all. Maybe this guy(or company) showed his design 3 years ago on another forum. Maybe he is pulling out his hair saying how dare TSO use this design. Maybe they both thought of it concurrently, but we can think they copied, we know nothing at all. And to my eye it NOT identical. Would it aggravate me if I was TSO, heck yes, but business sucks.

Patent Pending means just that, it's pending. That being said I bought TSO and will stick with them.

 

[Bob D.]

"What can be done with one, can be done with the other."

Except for using a clamp with the rail and square, there is
no notch to accept the clamp. I know the DeWalt square had
that feature and they've been out for a year or two I believe.

 

[Cheese]

Isnt there a number assigned to the application while its pending?

Yes, but its internal to the patent office and the inventor. Patent Pending is the ideal state to be in, it announces to everyone that a patent has been applied for, so you better be careful,  however, it also does not divulge any of the "secrets/art". It's sitting in the cat bird seat...

 

[nickao]

Anyone know the patent number? All I can find is "Patent Pending" statements. Isnt there a number assigned to the application while its pending?

Actually under patent pending there  isn't a patent number at all,  when pending they call it an "application number".

 

[ben_r_]

If it's patent pending they don't  have the patent, it very well could be it's denied and the people selling this square will get a patent themselves!

Right off a link from the patent office regarding patent pending items:

Therefore, it would not be appropriate to allow patent applicants to stop others from making, using, selling, and importing the invention (e.g. patent rights) described in their patent application because it is possible the Patent Office might later determine a patent should not be granted.


This alone should of stopped Dan from pulling anything at all.

There are provisional rights, but until the patent has been granted and the company feels they want to go after someone everything these guys selling this new square are doing is legal in Canada and the US.

Dan  should put that back on his site becasue he is hurting the people making it, who are we to decide TSO is the one that is in the right, that's not our call at all. Maybe this guy(or company) showed his design 3 years ago on another forum. Maybe he is pulling out his hair saying how dare TSO use this design. Maybe they both thought of it concurrently, but we can think they copied, we know nothing at all. And to my eye it NOT identical. Would it aggravate me if I was TSO, heck yes, but business sucks.

Patent Pending means just that, it's pending. That being said I bought TSO and will stick with them.

Thats what I thought. Now, wonder what it would cost to get the Insta shipped to the US as the conversion from USD to CAN makes the Insta quite a bit cheaper depending on the shipping cost.

 

[Klemm]

to all:
TSO is humbled by the outpouring of support from customers and FOG friends in the face of a blatant imitation of our flagship product – the GRS-16.
We also could not help notice the number of FOGGERS vouching for ULTIMATE TOOLS - shown with Dan Clermont’s “HOLD” announcement taking the high road on a product they are not involved with design or manufacture.

TSO invested significant resources in the development of the GRS-16 product line:
The first product to completely break the reliance on T-slots for accuracy.
The first product to automatically compensate for rail and tool variations.
The first product to do so with no tools, loose parts or secondary calibration need.
The first product to offer these benefits worldwide with prompt availability.

Thos of you who know us, are well aware that we're not newcomers to innovation. We have a keen ear for the "Voice of the Customer" on the FOG and elsewhere. When we heard customers bemoaning the inability to buy an 18" OTT Triangle when they need it, we came to the rescue with the PTR-18 with a few small enhancements. We then took it  further with our innovative MTR-18 SYSTEM Triangle - refining the offering as customer input came forth on the FOG and elsewhere.
You can count on more innovation to increase the utility of FESTOOL and other leading tools.

 

[Klemm]

- ooops - looks like our posting skills need remedial training. Here goes the rest of our post that disappeared in cyberspace:

at our TSO annual Business Review June 10th we set the stage to begin taking our products to retail distribution. - A perfect time to pick up where our Eric had left off with Dan Clermont a while back about a retail partnership. (sorry Conspiracy Theorists: no drama here [wink]

We're really pleased our Canadian customers will soon enjoy the convenience of in-country purchasing and delivery directly from Canadas newly authorized retailer of TSO Products:
                              ULTIMATE Tools    www.ultimate tools.ca

Hans and Eric
info@tsoproducts.com

 

[dltflt]

Anyone know the patent number? All I can find is "Patent Pending" statements. Isnt there a number assigned to the application while its pending?

Actually under patent pending there  isn't a patent number at all,  when pending they call it an "application number".

Patent pending is a good thing. As long as there is an application for patent, no one can copy the product. The patent life does not start until it is a true patent. So you can extend the time that your product can't be copied due to patent pending.

 

[Dan Clermont]

Hello Everyone

As I mentioned earlier in this thread Ultimate Tools does not manufacture any products.

We rely on companies to create innovative, leading edge products and our success has been based on providing premium products and services to our customers.

Our lines include Festool, Felder, Woodpecker, Whiteside, Lie Nielsen, Powermatic, SawStop and TSO PRODUCTS

I had a lengthy conversation with Eric and Hans today about the FOG and how it has helped shape our businesses. The FOG is where we both turned to for support and product enhancement.

We at Ultimate Tools are excited about carrying the TSO line of products and look forward to providing our customers with even more innovative products in the future.

Best Regards
Dan Clermont

 

[sancho57]

All I can say is wow, what I'd truly like too say would get me band permanently from this forum.

Tom

Me to buddy

So Ill just say I wont be getting one

 

[Bob D.]

And before that was the DeWalt for their track saw: LINK

[attachimg=1]

This YouTube video from 2008 would suggest that the DeWalt DWS5027 TrackSaw™ T-Square
pre-dates them all. I wonder if DeWalt applied for a patent. I noticed they trademarked the word
TrackSaw, so if they went that far I just wonder if they patented the T-Square accessory.
Notice how in the video the T-Square does not require any tools to install.

From the DeWalt website:

  The DWS5027 TrackSaw™ T-Square has a self-aligning design and delivers 
    accurate 90° cuts. For use with TrackSaw™ cutting system.

 

[ChuckM]

Sounds like a good conclusion for now to this matter (I, too, don't believe in any conspiracy thing about the new distribution development). Looks like Canadian customers will soon be able to buy the TSO squares from some Canadian retailers including Ultimate Tools.

What is not clear from TSO Products' latest statement is if it has any Canadian patent on its guide rail squares. If it hasn't, then the INSTA SQUARE is not considered an infringement of its innovation IN CANADA, at least in my book. An imitation, yes.

Also unknown for the time being is, of course, how much the Canadian price is for the TSO square (vs the price $169 for the INSTA SQUARE).

 

[Brian Livingstone]

Awesome news !  I will be adding one of the TSO products to my next Ultimate Tools order in the coming weeks.

Ultimate Tools, Gary, Dan and Chris are the best !

Brian
Fall River, Nova Scotia Canada.

 

[Svar]

This YouTube video from 2008 would suggest that the DeWalt DWS5027 TrackSaw™ T-Square pre-dates them all.

I am pretty sure Festool rail protractor predates Dewalt track saw.

 

[Bob D.]

This YouTube video from 2008 would suggest that the DeWalt DWS5027 TrackSaw™ T-Square pre-dates them all.

I am pretty sure Festool rail protractor predates Dewalt track saw.

That may be true, but not apples to apples. The DWS5027 is a toolless self-aligning T-square style accessory like the GRS-16, the GRS-16 PE, the woodpeckers version, and all the other follow-on squares. It's not a protractor style guide rail accessory. But DeWalt also made (and still offers) a protractor type accessory for their track saw which was also available back in 2008 and maybe before that. I'm not trying to say that DeWalt was before Festool, but it appears to me that it does pre-date TSO, Woodpeckers, and the others. And if DeWalt could continue to sell their accessory why is that? Does it not infringe on any Festool patents and if not then it would seem there is nothing to stop anyone else from doing the same unless there is some form of agreement between the parties involved.

 

[ben_r_]

ToolNut has the Insta-RailSquares listed on their website now for $139 with free shipping: LINK

I didnt know it fit in a Systainer:

View attachment 1

Anyone know how thick the unit is?
EDIT: Its 7/16" or 11mm thick per ToolNut.