New Guide Rail Square - Made in Canada
- Thread starter Dan Clermont
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to clarify ToolNut's position before anyone writes fresh posts on this topic, I posted the following Review in response to the YouTUbe on the ToolNut website:
"GRS-16 Guide Rail Square
imitation is the finest fomr of flattery but we recognize a number of shortcuts in this imitation which keep it from being the equal of the original GRS-16 and the GRS-16 PE. The advertised product is not an authorized copy of the original GRS-16 (US and Int'l Pat Pend).
ToolNut is a respected retailer who was not aware that the GRS-16 is now also available to established retailers in Canada, USA and overseas.
Hans"
we appreciate the prdicament of a retailer like ToolNut who is a majaor player in this market. GRS-16 became a clearly successful product thanks in no small part to all the support and approving ccomments from FOG members not just in the USA but around th world.
With experience in another manufacturing business selling through distribution we wanted to get our products and production "RIGHT" as well as our internal operations before facing the demands of the retail market. Not the least was the need to get our costs to a point where we could offer a competitive retail margin.
The problem with our approach is that we created a demand in the market and also a vacuum in the retail space which we failed to address in a timely manner - shame on us.
ToolNut is just doing what a market responsive retailer should be doing: handle product which their customers want. They asked TSO early on to handle the GRS-16 but we were not ready. So don't throw unkind words at the ToolNut because its TSO who created the problem.
now let's get back to woordworking [wink]
Hans
info@tsoproducts.com
"GRS-16 Guide Rail Square
imitation is the finest fomr of flattery but we recognize a number of shortcuts in this imitation which keep it from being the equal of the original GRS-16 and the GRS-16 PE. The advertised product is not an authorized copy of the original GRS-16 (US and Int'l Pat Pend).
ToolNut is a respected retailer who was not aware that the GRS-16 is now also available to established retailers in Canada, USA and overseas.
Hans"
we appreciate the prdicament of a retailer like ToolNut who is a majaor player in this market. GRS-16 became a clearly successful product thanks in no small part to all the support and approving ccomments from FOG members not just in the USA but around th world.
With experience in another manufacturing business selling through distribution we wanted to get our products and production "RIGHT" as well as our internal operations before facing the demands of the retail market. Not the least was the need to get our costs to a point where we could offer a competitive retail margin.
The problem with our approach is that we created a demand in the market and also a vacuum in the retail space which we failed to address in a timely manner - shame on us.
ToolNut is just doing what a market responsive retailer should be doing: handle product which their customers want. They asked TSO early on to handle the GRS-16 but we were not ready. So don't throw unkind words at the ToolNut because its TSO who created the problem.
now let's get back to woordworking [wink]
Hans
info@tsoproducts.com
How many of you guys actually bought one of these squares ?
Of those- how many actually use them ?
For what, and how often ?
Clearly people are buying if retailers are banging down doors to get the products. But, personally I scratch my head. I've had a track saw since the mid 90's when Festool still had the patent , and not once have I ever wished I had a 90deg jig for the rail.
So, I'm curious what you guys are using this on often enough to justify $150+ ? If you sent me one gratis, I wouldn't even carry it in the systainer for the space and weight penalty. But maybe I'm just not doing the kinds of operations that make this valuable.
Of those- how many actually use them ?
For what, and how often ?
Clearly people are buying if retailers are banging down doors to get the products. But, personally I scratch my head. I've had a track saw since the mid 90's when Festool still had the patent , and not once have I ever wished I had a 90deg jig for the rail.
So, I'm curious what you guys are using this on often enough to justify $150+ ? If you sent me one gratis, I wouldn't even carry it in the systainer for the space and weight penalty. But maybe I'm just not doing the kinds of operations that make this valuable.
Some time ago I would have found this square handy, not for $150 thought. But since I built my own MFT-like bench I don't need it. I mostly build hardwood furniture, everything from beds to bookshelves.antss said:
You need to make square cuts. If not a work bench setup then how? Traditional square and pencil?
I've never had that need. Anything I've ever cut can be measured from one end with two witness marks, place rail, and cut. And that accuracy is plenty for what I do. Within .5mm , even in a hurry and with my eyes.
I guess if I were building cabinets or casework on site I could see a use. But I don't. I can't see eliminating measuring either. You could eliminate one tic mark though. But that assumes your end is 90deg to begin with. More efficient ways to accomplish production volume, and too much $$$ for a couple of times a year use.
Things I do requiring that kind of precision can be cut on one of my mitersaws or a sliding tablesaw if sheetgoods wider than 10-11".
Which one did you buy ? How often are you using it, and what are you cutting ?
I guess if I were building cabinets or casework on site I could see a use. But I don't. I can't see eliminating measuring either. You could eliminate one tic mark though. But that assumes your end is 90deg to begin with. More efficient ways to accomplish production volume, and too much $$$ for a couple of times a year use.
Things I do requiring that kind of precision can be cut on one of my mitersaws or a sliding tablesaw if sheetgoods wider than 10-11".
Which one did you buy ? How often are you using it, and what are you cutting ?
rmwarren
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Minor stuff but I have to chuckle at seeing the TN marketing photos showing the square attached to the wrong end of the rail, probably in order to read the brand name. Which conversely is upside down when installed properly, as are the numbers on the scale. while in use.
Such, ahem, attention to detail by the manufacturer speaks volumes as to the potential accuracy of the product. Being 16" along it's reference edge, any minor deviance in the squareness (perpendicularness?) of the 2 important edges will be magnified by a factor of 3 in a 48" cut.
[member=59331]TSO Products[/member] - Hans kudos on handling this with class, it has to sting to have someone copy your hard work, risk and investment while blatantly undercutting you by a few bucks to steal market. I for one would not buy it just because I don't care to reward such behavior.
Soap-box is firmly back in the closet now.
RMW
Such, ahem, attention to detail by the manufacturer speaks volumes as to the potential accuracy of the product. Being 16" along it's reference edge, any minor deviance in the squareness (perpendicularness?) of the 2 important edges will be magnified by a factor of 3 in a 48" cut.
[member=59331]TSO Products[/member] - Hans kudos on handling this with class, it has to sting to have someone copy your hard work, risk and investment while blatantly undercutting you by a few bucks to steal market. I for one would not buy it just because I don't care to reward such behavior.
Soap-box is firmly back in the closet now.
RMW
The ruler adds little value because the distance between the back of the rail and the cut line varies at least +/- 1mm from rail to rail (or rather saw to saw). Unless the scale can be adjusted (Incra style) it is pretty much useless. You could probably calibrate your saws to the square's scale and recut or reposition you splinter strips. But this looks like much trouble.bnaboatbuilder said:
nickao
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Totally weird. Certain people don't like the tool, then bash the cost. Don't buy it, we can say that about any jig, fixture, even power tool. But don't bash it or elude that the seller is ripping anyone off.
Whether you like the tool or believe it has value in the shop has zero relation to what the tool, jig or fixture cost to make and then sell to make a profit.
I can't cut an aluminum square like this in my shop on my CNC, machine the rest, source the other parts and then put it together for what TSO sells it for, let alone make one to resell at that price AND make money.
My square NEVER leaves my rail. I use it hundreds of times a week when I am busy, at least once a day when I am slower. The way I use the square is I bring the track to the ply stack with the square on it. I am not lifting 50 sheets anywhere, so saying a table or anything else like that is better just makes no sense. It's not how most of us use the square. Heck, I could say why ever buy a track saw, I can mark two hash lines and just use a piece of ply as a guide and use my sidewinder, one similar complaint I read here about why they don't use the square.
The TSO and most likely any other track saw square does what it is supposed to do, saves me loads of time.
The track saw square helps me cut ply consistently to within 1/32" over 8 feet over and over, most times better, closer to 1/64" . Anyone that needs better might be a tool collector a type person that tests their miter saws claiming a 1/128" deflection, claiming they can't get good miters because of it. Anyone looking for the type of precision I have been reading complaints about here for the square probably should not be using a track saw for super accurate or precise work in the first place. For me a track saw is not a hyper accurate nor hyper precision tool and I cringe when I see the cabinet installers on site use it as such. Many, if not most times no good comes of it resulting in shoddy work.
Possibly the seller hints the square is more than it is, certainly some readers here claim that to be the case. I never was under the impression TSO claimed it to be some super duper precision making phenomenon. What I got from the website when I purchased it was that it was a square to line up the tracks saw on a clean edge, ply normally and the rail would shoot out at a 90 to that edge. And the square does do that.
This square has value to me and it makes me loads of money, by saving me time. I use it within it's limits. It saves me making those thousands of hash lines 8 feet apart over and over and over. At 150.00 It's just simpler to buy it even though I could make one if I chose to. I like my track saw square(mine is TSO), if I lost it I would buy another the next day.
Whether you like the tool or believe it has value in the shop has zero relation to what the tool, jig or fixture cost to make and then sell to make a profit.
I can't cut an aluminum square like this in my shop on my CNC, machine the rest, source the other parts and then put it together for what TSO sells it for, let alone make one to resell at that price AND make money.
My square NEVER leaves my rail. I use it hundreds of times a week when I am busy, at least once a day when I am slower. The way I use the square is I bring the track to the ply stack with the square on it. I am not lifting 50 sheets anywhere, so saying a table or anything else like that is better just makes no sense. It's not how most of us use the square. Heck, I could say why ever buy a track saw, I can mark two hash lines and just use a piece of ply as a guide and use my sidewinder, one similar complaint I read here about why they don't use the square.
The TSO and most likely any other track saw square does what it is supposed to do, saves me loads of time.
The track saw square helps me cut ply consistently to within 1/32" over 8 feet over and over, most times better, closer to 1/64" . Anyone that needs better might be a tool collector a type person that tests their miter saws claiming a 1/128" deflection, claiming they can't get good miters because of it. Anyone looking for the type of precision I have been reading complaints about here for the square probably should not be using a track saw for super accurate or precise work in the first place. For me a track saw is not a hyper accurate nor hyper precision tool and I cringe when I see the cabinet installers on site use it as such. Many, if not most times no good comes of it resulting in shoddy work.
Possibly the seller hints the square is more than it is, certainly some readers here claim that to be the case. I never was under the impression TSO claimed it to be some super duper precision making phenomenon. What I got from the website when I purchased it was that it was a square to line up the tracks saw on a clean edge, ply normally and the rail would shoot out at a 90 to that edge. And the square does do that.
This square has value to me and it makes me loads of money, by saving me time. I use it within it's limits. It saves me making those thousands of hash lines 8 feet apart over and over and over. At 150.00 It's just simpler to buy it even though I could make one if I chose to. I like my track saw square(mine is TSO), if I lost it I would buy another the next day.
Dovetail - are you principally framing houses ? Then I can see some value to a rail square. I've never bought 50 sheets at one time ever. If I did it'd be in a shop setting and I'd then have a materials handling system with a vac gantry to move them to the processing centers.
I'm doing finish work and none of the houses or condos I work in have anywhere near .5mm or 1/32" tolerances for plumb , level and especially square. Meaning I'm never cutting panels square either. There's always an offset/taper or a parallelogram . And each panel has a different one - making a jig ,for repeatability, of little use.
So far you're the only one round here that says they actually use one of these. You mention others, but who ? And where are they ? I'm sincerely curious who else uses one (no matter the brand) and what they are using it to cut. Maybe it's not for me, but clearly they are selling. I just would like to know what kinds of tasks guys are actually using them for. Not the marketing pitch, but what fellas are really using it on.
Your principle use is to make sheetgoods smaller to handle in your shop ? Which you then take to other tools to process ? From which the edge you cut with the square is used as a reference edge ? Is that correct ?
I'm doing finish work and none of the houses or condos I work in have anywhere near .5mm or 1/32" tolerances for plumb , level and especially square. Meaning I'm never cutting panels square either. There's always an offset/taper or a parallelogram . And each panel has a different one - making a jig ,for repeatability, of little use.
So far you're the only one round here that says they actually use one of these. You mention others, but who ? And where are they ? I'm sincerely curious who else uses one (no matter the brand) and what they are using it to cut. Maybe it's not for me, but clearly they are selling. I just would like to know what kinds of tasks guys are actually using them for. Not the marketing pitch, but what fellas are really using it on.
Your principle use is to make sheetgoods smaller to handle in your shop ? Which you then take to other tools to process ? From which the edge you cut with the square is used as a reference edge ? Is that correct ?
rmwarren
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I do have a TSO square and use it for my DIY projects. In my case mostly plywood for cabinets, etc.
I don't need machine shop tolerances for cabinets. If a panel is 1/32th out of parallel it doesn't effect the end result in any meaningful way. I obsess over too much shop stuff anyway, & have finally learned that there are times when tolerances in the thousandths of an inch are important and when it is not.
Some may recall I was dabbling with making a square before TSO came out with theirs. That effort used an adjustable reference arm so it could be squared perfectly, or within the limits of "perfectly" in my world. The issue it caused was uncertainty whether it had been bumped out of square during or between uses, so I ended up double checking squareness often. This obviated the benefits of quick attachment to the rail.
IF TSO's reference edge is out of square with the edge touching the guide rail by a couple thousandths then the cut would be off by 3X that amount over 4'. In my world this is perfectly acceptable. Even if the TSO square is perfect to 0.000", any crumb of sawdust between the reference edge and the stock being cut, or imperfection in the rail or elsewhere will impart as much or more error.
Come to think of it, I don't know that TSO advertises tolerances anyway. Hans and Eric probably figured out it was best not to go down that rabbit hole and that the results would speak for themselves.
What this all boils down, for me, is I can slap the TSO square on a rail and be comfortable that (1) the tolerance is no different that the last time I used it and (2) that the end result will be good enough for the girls I run with.
This time the soapbox is being padlocked to prevent easy access...
RMW
I don't need machine shop tolerances for cabinets. If a panel is 1/32th out of parallel it doesn't effect the end result in any meaningful way. I obsess over too much shop stuff anyway, & have finally learned that there are times when tolerances in the thousandths of an inch are important and when it is not.
Some may recall I was dabbling with making a square before TSO came out with theirs. That effort used an adjustable reference arm so it could be squared perfectly, or within the limits of "perfectly" in my world. The issue it caused was uncertainty whether it had been bumped out of square during or between uses, so I ended up double checking squareness often. This obviated the benefits of quick attachment to the rail.
IF TSO's reference edge is out of square with the edge touching the guide rail by a couple thousandths then the cut would be off by 3X that amount over 4'. In my world this is perfectly acceptable. Even if the TSO square is perfect to 0.000", any crumb of sawdust between the reference edge and the stock being cut, or imperfection in the rail or elsewhere will impart as much or more error.
Come to think of it, I don't know that TSO advertises tolerances anyway. Hans and Eric probably figured out it was best not to go down that rabbit hole and that the results would speak for themselves.
What this all boils down, for me, is I can slap the TSO square on a rail and be comfortable that (1) the tolerance is no different that the last time I used it and (2) that the end result will be good enough for the girls I run with.
This time the soapbox is being padlocked to prevent easy access...
RMW
Cheese
Member
My TSO square has lived on an FS rail for the last year of its life. Used mostly for cutting sheet goods for cabinetry, it's saved me from marking twice, placing the rail on the 2 marks and then tweaking the rail to keep it on both marks.
I now mark once and square the rail to the material and then cut. [cool]
I now mark once and square the rail to the material and then cut. [cool]
ewils91
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- Mar 28, 2008
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I too would not purchase a blatant copy. My crew fought over the first GRS-16 so I had to buy 2 more...one I keep just for me. I had already purchased one from the red company, whose products I love but I could see the clear advantage to the GRS-16 so ended up buying those.
I never saw the GRS-16 as a copy of the red company's because the entire tool was changed and improved in my opinion. I'll keep buying TSO products from them or a retailer if they decide to go that route.
I never saw the GRS-16 as a copy of the red company's because the entire tool was changed and improved in my opinion. I'll keep buying TSO products from them or a retailer if they decide to go that route.
charley1968
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I use it regularly for sheet goods.Of course i could get by without one, but it's simpler and faster.
Blah. Blah. Blah. You foggers supporting the knock off miss the point. It's just about the letter of the law to you. What about being straight up, any of y'all willing to honor a hand shake. There are many excellent third party options for festools. Did tso not come on this site and work with foggers to develop this product. Whatever in the end who cares, I mean the new one is cheaper, so let's encourage festool to move manufacturing to china
Another happy TSO GSR user here. I am a one man show so I use it to cut down sheet goods before the pieces come into the shop. To me it's simply a convenience tool that I am very happy with and shortens the time I need to get work prepped. No more marking in multiple locations, trying to clamp rail on both ends, etc to make a cut.
Everyone is in a different situation but support from the manufacturer is worth more to me than saving a few bucks here and there. With my square I know the history of it and who to contact with questions so I will continue to support another small business like TSO like I would like people to support mine.
Everyone is in a different situation but support from the manufacturer is worth more to me than saving a few bucks here and there. With my square I know the history of it and who to contact with questions so I will continue to support another small business like TSO like I would like people to support mine.
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Atonwa said:
Ditto. I use mine to break down sheets of ply to make it easier to get them into my basement shop. There is no direct outside access so I have to carry anything down a narrow dog-leg stair which puts the wall at risk of being damaged. Even with a 24x96 piece I have to stand it up at the landing to make the turn and descend the second set of stairs. The TSO GRS16-PE makes taking sheets of ply down to a manageable size an easy task. If both squares had been on the market at the time I would have still turned to the TSO square as I like the design better. One important point is that you can still use your guide rail clamp.
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