New jigsaw model just announced...
- Thread starter bwehman
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Hawkeye0001
Member
Considering it's made in China, sold at a 40% lower MSRP than the PSC 420 and they just low-key announced a 420 successor it'd make perfect sense if they tried to market it as a gateway drug into the system (as someone commented earlier on the PSC-E-designator; similar to the essentials-only T18-Easy drill)
Is this their first Made-in-China tool? Are there any other examples of machines under the Festool brand that are Chinese products?
And what about accessories and consumables such as batteries as China is a leader in the battery industry?
I suppose management wouldn't be foolish enough to outsource their primary products (namely, track saws, miter saws and domino machines or even dust extractors) to China, which would basically destroy the German or EU linkage to the brand.
And what about accessories and consumables such as batteries as China is a leader in the battery industry?
I suppose management wouldn't be foolish enough to outsource their primary products (namely, track saws, miter saws and domino machines or even dust extractors) to China, which would basically destroy the German or EU linkage to the brand.
mino
Member
The RSC 18 was the first.
TTS started trialling Chinese tool ODMs for the lower-end line of Narex brand tools about 10 years ago, shortly after the Protool closure. It was probably part of a single strategy. They had lots of different tools made for them and then sold in significant-but-not-huge quantities, some were withdrawn relatively fast, some still carry on. It is now obvious they were testing suppliers this way.
I am not happy about it in general, but it was inevitable once the Energiewende and the Green Deal directions were decided on about 20 years ago. Then the path forward was set for making EU the most expensive location to manufacture stuff by design. Who wants to survive, must move to at least partial China-sourcing.
If they want to /and they absolutely have to to survive/ expand their premium-hobby market presence as well as keeping their crew/contractor presence they need "entry" tools at lower prices. Especially in the cordless space. And that is impossible with ever-increasing European tool production costs when ALL your competitors are Chinese with Chinese energy/labour costs staying still or going down even. I am ignoring the economies of scale at play that come from shared fundamental R&D costs as those are still possible to compensate by tapping the historical know-how advantage in primary material sciences the traditional makers have accumulated.
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Michael Kellough
Member
This is the path Metabo went down several years ago. But it’s not the same since Metabo’s corporate owners have a much different relationship with the brand than Festool’s owners. I have two of Metabo’s cordless jigsaws made in China and they’re not bad. The Bosch GST18V-60BC cordless jigsaw is made in Hungary.
onocoffee
Member
A few months ago, I was at a lumber supplier hanging with the owner - who has always believed in buying the best quality tools. He was showing me their Metabo drills (which IIRC are similar or the same as the Mafell?) - much nicer than the lineup I see at Lowes!
More like this:
On a similar note, I understand that the predecessor to the TPC was a direct conversion from the Protool acquisition. I noticed that Sedge has the Protool version in orange and he uses it with the Festool 18v battery. Is that to say that the Festool batteries came from Protool as well?
Michael Kellough
Member
Metabo’s best drills are made in Germany and the Mafell cordless drill that Timberwolf used to sell (just looked and there are no drills at all at the Timberwolf site) was a rebadged Metabo. I have that drill (Metabo version) and it’s powerful and smooth but it’s so heavy I seldom use it.
I’m not sure Lowes ever had Metabo tools on the shelves (don’t think so) but they did have some on the website shortly after Hitachi was renamed Metabo HPT. I bought a few Metabo tools that way at closeout prices. I bought several more from CPO at very low prices before the pandemic. Don’t know where they got them from.
I ended up with a lot of Metabo 12v tools too and since none of the Metabo stuff comes in Systainers (in the states) they sit/stand on shelves and they are what I reach for. The Festool drills are snoozing in the Systainers, in stacks. I especially like the feel of the 12v Metabo’s and the compact size. Three of them barely take more space than one 18v tool and are usually plenty powerful for the job. The tiny 12v impact driver has a low speed mode which makes it suitable for precise final setting of screws so I don’t need a separate tool.
mino
Member
Just a 'slight' correction.
There was no "Protool acquisition".
Festool and Protool were brands of TTS but the manufacturing/R&D organisation was a single entity by 2000 or so, once the Narex site in Česká Lípa was fully integrated. They continue to operate that way to this day. There are today three plants (Old(er) Festo, Old Narex, New TTS) and two R&D sites - German and Czech one. Those are separate legal entities, but operate as a single organization with originally three (Festool, Protool, Narex) and now two (Festool, Narex) sales arms.
TLDR:
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Protool was a brand of Festo ToolTechnic (TTS today) created in early 1990s in parallel with creating the Festool brand after they acquired the Czech Narex tools company and made agreements with/acquired several other small German carpentry/building sector focused tool makers.
Protool was created from scratch as the *umbrella* brand/sales organization for selling Narex (initially the core of the portfolio), Festo, OMEGA (big saws) and many, many other specialised German tools under a single joint brand that could be marketed worldwide and was focused on carpentry, the wider building sector as well as industrial use (taking over traditional Narex sales presence in the '2nd' and '3rd' world). Some of the small German makers TTS bought outright like they did Narex, from some they contracted all production, and from some they just re-labelled the tools to sell globally.
But the key takeaway is Protool was the sister brand to the Festool brand. It was not something they "acquired". The made it. They winded it down when the project did not work out economically in 2014. There was never any buy or sale involved of Protool itself.
Basically, when you think Festool, think Protool. And vice versa as far as the tech goes. There is no boundary. The boundary, if any, is Festo-heritage tools, Narex-heritage tools, OMEGA-heritage tools etc. New designs are joint development starting in 2000 or so, so even the "-heritage" distinction is losing its meaning.
As for the DRC/PDC 18/4 it was a from-scratch TTS R&D project that was originally targeted for the "raw power" sectors and sold under the Protool brand. It was done by the same joint engineering teams who designed the CXS or the C/T 18 drills. It was not a "Festo" as it was not a "Narex" design. It was a genuine product of TTS. The only correct description. It was definitely not a "Protool design". Sales guys do not get to design tools ...
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Hawkeye0001
Member
The batteries used the same standard, just badged either orange or green. The DRC 18/4 and PDC 18/4 (the TDC & TPC's predecessors) were indeed originally Protool machines, hence they used the Centrotec system but had some incompatibilities by lacking the Fastfix system for e.g. the angled or eccentric chucks.
There were in fact quite a few Protool machines that turned black & green after 2013, e.g. the DWC 2500 drywall gun was previously a 12V (later 18V) Protool machine, the Quadrill PD 20/4 and SSU 200 Sword Saw were direct conversions and the Protool VCP 170 dust extractor became the Festool C17.
Other Protool tools were rebranded back to Narex (the Festo-aquired Czech company that Protool was originally born out of to build a low-budget range of tools in 1994); e.g. the Protool DRP 10 EQ drill which is still available as the Narex EV 13 F-H3 today. Also the Narex EPL 12-7 BE jigsaw might also look eerily familar to you.
mino
Member
Correct.
Though calling the Protool tool range as "low-budget" is both disingenuous and true at the same time. Their competitors were the Metabo, Blue Bosch or the /high-end/ Makita on the mainstream stuff and the Mafell's of this world on the specialist stuff. There was nothing "budget" about any of the Protool kit. Except. Except the price for their mainstream kit.
TTS indeed made a /fatal?/ mistake in marketing the *original* rebadged Narex stuff at similar (+30% or so) prices it sold in its home market. Instead of value-pricing it for the new markets, they used a cost+ model which they were familiar with from Festo (and Narex folk were from the planned economy times).
This created the false impression of a 'value' pro brand on the Western markets and this self-inflicted wound kept hurting them down the line as they refreshed the tools and were forced to raise their prices. Cockily branding yourself PROTOOL probably did not help with this either ...
Thus when Protool started, they were basically selling Festo-class kit at 1/2 the price while still *temporarily* making money courtesy of the economic collapse of COMENON and the related currency devaluation affording a very low production cost. In hindsight, passing these cost savings down to the customer on the Western markets was a reputation time bomb they planted under themselves .. which eventually brought down their castle as it forced them to price-compete with Chinese produce when it came en masse.
Michael Kellough
Member
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Hawkeye0001
Member
While I was folding laundry something just clicked and now I'm curious about Omega
Since you seem very knowledgeable do you have more info about Omega? Never really heard of them as a manufacturer of anything, but know Omega GmhH as Festool's (somewhat secret 'backdoor') online factory outlet sale - doing business under the name of Omega-Star - based at the same physical adress as Festool's HQ.
luvmytoolz
Member
Almost need a family tree for the various companies and products related to Festool/Protool, etc.
It'd be very handy for product comparisons across the various brands.
It'd be very handy for product comparisons across the various brands.
mino
Member
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luvmytoolz
Member
Wow that's some pretty comprehensive spreadsheets thanks Mino!
This doesn't include the stuff that continued under other brand names, like the current Spit wall chasers?
mino
Member
Correct. It does not.
Those are just the sheets published by their Festool and Narex sales orgs. They do not include historical tools either.
Quite a limited sample indeed. Still, better than nothing if one seeks a general context.
Have actually been thinking about doing that. Or even just to be more efficient in systainer storage in general. A lot of empty space in those vacuum formed inserts.....
tobiaskurz
Member
- Joined
- Oct 14, 2018
- Messages
- 34
On Printables is already something like this available:
https://www.printables.com/model/12...-dummy-mehr-stauraum-weniger-leer/collections
https://www.printables.com/model/12...-dummy-mehr-stauraum-weniger-leer/collections
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