New TSC 55 K saw and TPC 18 drill

[Coen]

Bunch of PR smoke. They have NO riving knife.

Electronics or not; like was said before; an absent riving knife does not keep the kerf from closing.

 

[semenza]

Please see Spare Parts / CMS discussion here -------------->https://www.festoolownersgroup.com/festool-tools-accessories/spare-parts-cms-discussion/

Seth

 

[Coen]

I just saw the TS 55 F still has a riving knife.  [big grin]

 

[six-point socket II]

There was some discussion on this thread about a mechanical riving knife vs an electronic riving knife, here's Mafell's response:

"These Mafell plunge cut saws essentially have an electronic riving knife—an auto-stop feature to protect the user when jammed.  Mafell wanted this feature to make plunge cuts easier, and they received special approval from their government to do so.  Most users agree this is an advantage over other track saws, some of which have had recall issues with their riving knife in the past."

Did they really say government? As in government of the Federal Republic of Germany? Or did they mean governing/overseeing body in terms of trade/industry like "Employers' Liability Insurance Association" / DGUV?

That would be a huge difference, and the first one actually doesn't sound plausible to me.

Scratch that, my mistake. Ultimately the guidelines and rules set out by those governing bodies are indeed approved by a body of the German government.

Kind regards,
Oliver

 

[DeformedTree]

German Government or the EU?  Wouldn't anything sold there have to follow rules for the whole EU, not just one country?  Like a "council of power tools and appendage protection" located in Brussels?

Who decides what tools need over there? Who defines what a riving knife is?

I assume folks smarter than any of us have thought this through.  But of course "assume"...

 

[six-point socket II]

It's rather complicated to explain.

Almost all commercially working tradesman and workers/employees in Germany are insured, I say almost because there are exceptions - I won't go into those.

No matter what trade, they all have a branch of insurance, there are 9 of them. Additionally for the workers/employees not in a trade but other fields, there are 24 accident insurance companies. All of them are statutory. All of them together are known as: German Statutory accident insurance (DGUV).

They, by law, are entitled to make rules on everything that you would know as OSHA standards. In Germany, the part of accident prevention, is called UVV (Unfallverhütungsvorschriften = Accident Prevention Rules).

DGUV - in the end - is overseen by the German Federal Ministry of Labour and Social Affairs.

Now getting to the riving knife.

If you look into the DGUV rules for carpenters:https://www.bgbau.de/fileadmin/Medien-Objekte/Medien/DGUV-Regeln/109-606.pdf

(Sorry, I don't have a link to an english language version of this document.)

It says which type of saws need a riving knife. In case of handheld circular saws, it says that it needs to have one, with the exception if the saw is compliant with exceptions laid out within DIN EN 60745-2-5 standard (Title: Hand-held motor-operated electric tools - Safety - Part 2-5: Particular requirements for circular saws (IEC 60745-2-5:2010, modified) )

I can't go deeper into this, because I don't have access to this document, in Germany the standards are not public domain, you need to buy these.

Now what this means is: If you are a carpenter with statutory insurance, you need to abide by this rules.

This does not mean a manufacturer is barred from building a tool that is in one point or more, non-compliant with these rules. As long as it is generally safe, abides by a thousand other rules, he can put it on the market and sell it.

The catch is, a tradesman with statutory insurance couldn't use it on the job/commercially. If he did and an inspector came and noticed it, he would order the tradesman not to use it.

So if you want to sell tools to commercial users bound to the rules of statutory insurance, you need to abide by their rules and build your tools accordingly.

So when Mafell says, they were authorized by the government. What they mean is that they got a change of code/standard approved for a circular saw that has another safety device in place instead of the classic riving knife. And the statutory insurance rule makers decided that was good, and referred to this chapter of the standard for eligible exceptions from the classic riving knife on hand held circular saws.

Since the government oversees those who make the rules and refer to standards that are to be adhered to, they were right in their wording.

I really hope this is understandable. I tried to be as specific as I could but I'm no expert on this either. I'm sure there are more details, more steps - but it sums up the end result just fine.

Let's leave the EU out of it, the cited standard was already harmonized (EN). That would only fill more pages.

Kind regards,
Oliver

 

[mino]

Let's leave the EU out of it, the cited standard was already harmonized (EN). That would only fill more pages. ...

I am sure the standard/requirement does not mention riving knife specifically.

It would mention something along "device preventing xyz type of a scenario". It would be then on the maker to prove (or declare, depends) that a device he uses meets that requirement to get the CE mark.

Then insurance company would have a more specific "simplified" interpretation which would allow a maker to SKIP this prove/declare part as it would state something along "an automatically extending riving knife is deemed to provid for this and that requirement".
This means Maffel would not need to have any standards changed. All they would need to have done is PROVE their solution fulfills the original requirement via other means.

IMO the wording on the advert is purposefully making this some type of "Maffel did something special". But that is normal marketing, nothing to be ashamed.
[cool]

 

[six-point socket II]

It's actually pretty precise on how the saw needs to be build if it doesn't have a riving knife. I was - by now - able to take a look at it - partly at least.

Main take away is, if no riving knife is present, saw needs to be designed in a way that if it jumps out of the cut either a pendulum cover swings over the blade rapidly, or in case of a plung saw, the action is smooth, fast and strong enough for the blade being retracted immediately. (Yeah, I know ...) And in this case, the German DIN got weakened through this harmonizing process.

CE is always a self-declaration of the manufacturer, that he has abided by all rules/standards applicable.

Kind regards,
Oliver

 

[Svar]

What I find interesting is that only the TSC will get the electronic anti-kickback while the corded TS 55 will keep the riving knife. I would have expected the opposite - the TSC is the one more likely to be used free-handed.

I don't think you can use new TS with electronic anti-kickback free-hand. When not sitting on rail the lever will not be pressed up at the beginning of cut. Hence the saw will not start.  [sad] That lever could have been in the middle of the shoe in the arbor area.

[attachimg=1]

 

[FestitaMakool]

From the Festool video it apparently seems that the electronic safety feature can be disabled temporarily by a button between the batteries. It will reset automatically when restart.

 

[mino]

From the manual:

8.6 Working without the kickback stopfunction
WARNING
Risk of injury
If the kickback stop function is deactivated, the saw blade is not stopped when it unin­tentionally lifts.
► Only deactivate the kickback stop function if you are working without a rail and your workpiece is so uneven that the kickback stop function would unintentionally be trig­gered several times.
Deactivate the kickback stop function
► Press the kickback stop function OFF but­ton.
► Press and hold the on/off switch within ten seconds.
The kickback stop function remains deactivated until the on/off switch is next released.
The kickback stop function can only be de­activated before the saw is switched on.

Personally, do not like the trade-off and happy I got the pre-this version.

But we live in a Youtube world and with Maffel fanboys dissing Festool all over the place they simply hand to react. The same thing as with the thinner blades ref. deflection etc. etc.

 

[Svar]

Thanks, mino. Got it! Seems complicated.
Physical riving knife was a major consideration for me when choosing a track saw. Unfortunately Festool seems to be ditching it too.

 

[DeformedTree]

Is their enough Mafell users for there to be a fanboy base?  [huh]

If that is the case, Mafell can return fire with thicker blades and dual riving knifes, plus lasers (always need lasers)  [big grin]

I think the question comes down to what is the goal.  Is it to make things safe when the bad thing has happened (stop the blade when the saw pops), is it to stop the bad thing from happening to start with (riving knife stopping binding).

In either case, the rules should define the goal, not the method.

My general concern is trying to work a problem using electronics/software verses a physical item.  Not to say that the electronics/software solution isn't a better way for some things.  Pretty sure they can't do a software update that will physically keep the saw cut from closing.

 

[Svar]

Ideally need both, electronic and physical riving knife, to cover all aspects of safe and burn/gouge free cutting.

 

[Coen]

But we live in a Youtube world and with Maffel fanboys dissing Festool all over the place they simply hand to react. The same thing as with the thinner blades ref. deflection etc. etc.

Does Youtube censor Maffel-critics then? It's hard to tell.... lots of Stalinization going on at Youtube... stuff disappeared...

 

[mino]

Does Youtube censor Maffel-critics then? It's hard to tell.... lots of Stalinization going on at Youtube... stuff disappeared...

Not yet. Will come.

But my point was that the way Youtube review concept works, it gives more voice to amateur and semi-amateur reviewers who go for the "bling" much more than professional magazines would go in past. This means the "general picure" a common customer - who may not have first-hand possibility to discuss with colleagues - gets is skewed more in the "raw performance" and "checkbox" type comparisons and less of the deep trade-offs polemic than in the past.

This affects less the professional market, naturally. But even there there are a LOT of potential customers in the contractor trade etc. which just go for "more power/more feature/more mana" stuff.

This forces the makers of even high end kit to mend its products more in that direction to stay relevant.

It is what it is.
Festool is actually extremely resistive to this, but they can stay only so much "different" before it starts affecting them in sales too much.

 

[Coen]

Festool could do with some more explanation of their own cool features. Eg show that the Systainer inlay has dedicated space for the accessories in the inlay. If you ever thought a Festool inlay was bad... my oh my, you haven't seen Bosch inlays. 

 

[ben_r_]

Nice! I love it when the new "upgrades" or features are nothing I care about! Means I dont have to give them any more money!

 

[_Ben_]

Regarding the TPC 18 drill, does anyone know whether the black housing surrounding the gearbox is plastic?

I've got access to all those standards and have had a quick look through. I was quite surprised to see that 62841-2-5-2014 "particular requirements for hand-held circular saws" doesn't actually mandate an anti-kickback device at all. The standard does go into some detail about the safe operation of such a saw which I recognise as the instructions that manufacturers include in their safety booklets.

Annex BB indicates that for saws without a riving knife, there are additional compliance check to ensure that the blade will retract or be fully guarded within 0.3s after the device has been dropped twice as follows:

a) oriented with the lower guard being at bottom, so that the saw will strike the concrete
floor with the base plate parallel to the floor;
b) oriented so that the saw will strike the concrete floor in a hand carrying position.

Noting that the version of the standard above indicates that this is carried out with a 2mm (!) thick steel disc fitted.

It's actually pretty precise on how the saw needs to be build if it doesn't have a riving knife. I was - by now - able to take a look at it - partly at least.

Main take away is, if no riving knife is present, saw needs to be designed in a way that if it jumps out of the cut either a pendulum cover swings over the blade rapidly, or in case of a plung saw, the action is smooth, fast and strong enough for the blade being retracted immediately. (Yeah, I know ...) And in this case, the German DIN got weakened through this harmonizing process.

CE is always a self-declaration of the manufacturer, that he has abided by all rules/standards applicable.

Kind regards,
Oliver

 

[six-point socket II]

Do you by chance have access to outdated versions as well? Would be interesting to know what the original DIN said before it was harmonized and became an EN.

Kind regards,
Oliver