Hi Folk's, I have purchased a large assortment of festools to start woodworking. I am trying to make a miter saw bench ("Ultimate miter saw" station plans purchased from Woodworkers journal) for Kapex. Basically a rookie but want to do woodworking projects for pleasure. I have squared up my MFT but it seems like I cannot get the material square after i make cuts?. usually a couple corners are slightly out? I think its supposed to be perfect or I run into problems later? or is it OK to have a little error? I am using a carpenters square to check. its about 1 foot by 2 foot long. I am at the point now that I will have to put that wood aside as its right at the measurement required but its not square. I may have to try again with another piece of plywood? Just looking for any advice on getting things perfectly square. Using maple plywood for project. I did not purchase the parallel guides. Maybe that's the issue? I also am using a General table-saw which was made in Canada. i am using TS 55 with MFT once I cut the plywood down to 24 inch sizes. Any helpful hints would be appreciated. Question : Is there an easy way to check the square I am using?
New woodworker trouble getting material square..
- Thread starter fatspool
- Start date
To check if a square is square:
Place your square against a side of plywood that has a good edge and draw with a pencil using a sharp pencil against the leg of the square that is over the plywood. Now flip the square over, keeping the same leg against the plywood albeit the other side of the leg. Draw a line again, starting at exactly the same spot as the first line. If the two lines are coincident, your square is square.
Place your square against a side of plywood that has a good edge and draw with a pencil using a sharp pencil against the leg of the square that is over the plywood. Now flip the square over, keeping the same leg against the plywood albeit the other side of the leg. Draw a line again, starting at exactly the same spot as the first line. If the two lines are coincident, your square is square.
First, welcome to FOG.
A few things:
Did you set up your MFT using the videos on Youtube? The front and back brackets slid against the two stops, the back bracket and front bracket screws tightened against the MFT sides, the left side back fence supporter tight against the left outside side rail, the saw rail on the front notch and down to the table level and check the square there?
You might want to turn a 1x piece upright against the rail so that you are getting an accurate angle with the carpenters square from the fence to the 1x piece next to the rail to compensate for any error introduced from the angle perhaps?
A few things:
Did you set up your MFT using the videos on Youtube? The front and back brackets slid against the two stops, the back bracket and front bracket screws tightened against the MFT sides, the left side back fence supporter tight against the left outside side rail, the saw rail on the front notch and down to the table level and check the square there?
You might want to turn a 1x piece upright against the rail so that you are getting an accurate angle with the carpenters square from the fence to the 1x piece next to the rail to compensate for any error introduced from the angle perhaps?
Carpenter's squares can't be counted on to be right on the money, check it out as outlined above but aligning it with two outside edges can be challenging.
One way to check for square is to cut a rectangle on your MFT and use a tape from corner to corner each way. Depending on the size of the stock you've cut a difference of 1/32" might be good enough. Across 24" 1/32" is less than 1/10 of a degree.
Set your hook on the center of the corner and always read the same edge of the tape. Gives you a good place to start.
**Where to start, make a crosscut, mark it A, place it against the fence and make another cut mark it B and so on until you've made 4 cuts. Then start measuring, hopefully it will keep you from chasing your tail.
One way to check for square is to cut a rectangle on your MFT and use a tape from corner to corner each way. Depending on the size of the stock you've cut a difference of 1/32" might be good enough. Across 24" 1/32" is less than 1/10 of a degree.
Set your hook on the center of the corner and always read the same edge of the tape. Gives you a good place to start.
**Where to start, make a crosscut, mark it A, place it against the fence and make another cut mark it B and so on until you've made 4 cuts. Then start measuring, hopefully it will keep you from chasing your tail.
cliffp
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One thing I would say about this method (which I wholeheartedly endorse by the way) is that I tried it when I was relatively inexperienced and thought my square was out (because the lines were not coincident) and it turned out that the problem was that the reference edge was not very good for providing a consistent contact with the square. I was using MDF, the cut edge of which can be a bit spongy. I solved this problem by butting the fence from my MFT up against the reference edge. This gave me a perfect reference edge to but my square up against and the MFT fence was also able to maintain a consistent juxtaposition with the sheet of MDF. I realise that with Mike 1967's suggested use of plywood this problem would probably not occur but I thought I'd share my experience anyway.
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fatspool said:
Welcome to the forum! [smile]
Great advice above. In general this type of thing needs to be worked through from the beginning to find the source of the problem. And the reference tool has to be known to be accurate otherwise everything down the line will be off.
1). Make sure the square is square.
2). Make sure the sure the MFT set up is square based on a square , square or other squaring method.
3). Make sure everything else done while cutting is correct to achieve a square result.
4). Check for square using the same squaring tool throughout the process.
Seth
sancho57
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Like what Seth said
1) make sure your square is square.
2) set up mft using a known good square square .
3) ensure mft fence has no play in it.
4) cut to length
5) measure diagonals the check squareness.
6) if good proceed
7) if not ready and repeat # 1-6
1) make sure your square is square.
2) set up mft using a known good square square .
3) ensure mft fence has no play in it.
4) cut to length
5) measure diagonals the check squareness.
6) if good proceed
7) if not ready and repeat # 1-6
IMO the easiest way to set up your MFT for squareness is by using dogs (Parf, Perf, Qwas, etc. — they are all ok):
1. Loosen back and front parts of the rail-system (and the stops in the profile).
2. Plug two dogs into holes parallel to the rail, position to your liking.
3. Gently push rail towards dogs until in full contact with both dogs.
4. Keep pressure on the rail and lock the swiveling part in the back.
5. Do the same with the front part where the rail drops onto.
6. Push the stops in the profiles back with a screw driver and fasten them.
1. Loosen back and front parts of the rail-system (and the stops in the profile).
2. Plug two dogs into holes parallel to the rail, position to your liking.
3. Gently push rail towards dogs until in full contact with both dogs.
4. Keep pressure on the rail and lock the swiveling part in the back.
5. Do the same with the front part where the rail drops onto.
6. Push the stops in the profiles back with a screw driver and fasten them.
To answer your question, yes, a little out of square is going to cause problems later in your project. A standard stamped metal carpenter's square is not sufficiently accurate for cabinet (miter station) work. I recommend the Woodpecker's 1281 square until they offer their version of a carpenter's square again. See http://www.woodpeck.com/psq2015.html. It is ideal for squaring an MFT.
Start by trimming off 3mm/1/8" of the factory edge of your sheet goods or lumber. For sheet goods, the parallel guides now come in handy to make parallel cuts to the edge you just trimmed. Since you don't have the guides yet, put this newly cut edge against the rear fence of your squared MFT. Drop the guide rail so that it is square to the fence. Trim off 3mm/1/8" off the edge. You now have two squared faces on your material. Flip the piece so that the cut edge is still against the rear fence. Mark the piece for length, drop the guide rail on your mark, and make the cut. You now have three squared edges. If your final required dimension is small enough, you can rotate your piece 90 degrees and make the cut. If not, carefully measure your final dimension from each rear corner, mark, then lay a guide rail on this mark and use your TS55 to make the final cut. Assuming you measured carefully, and that your MFT was square to begin with, your should now have four edges, each of which are 90 degrees to the adjacent edge.
You bought some great tools. All you need is a repeatable procedure and some practice to get great results. Good luck.
Start by trimming off 3mm/1/8" of the factory edge of your sheet goods or lumber. For sheet goods, the parallel guides now come in handy to make parallel cuts to the edge you just trimmed. Since you don't have the guides yet, put this newly cut edge against the rear fence of your squared MFT. Drop the guide rail so that it is square to the fence. Trim off 3mm/1/8" off the edge. You now have two squared faces on your material. Flip the piece so that the cut edge is still against the rear fence. Mark the piece for length, drop the guide rail on your mark, and make the cut. You now have three squared edges. If your final required dimension is small enough, you can rotate your piece 90 degrees and make the cut. If not, carefully measure your final dimension from each rear corner, mark, then lay a guide rail on this mark and use your TS55 to make the final cut. Assuming you measured carefully, and that your MFT was square to begin with, your should now have four edges, each of which are 90 degrees to the adjacent edge.
You bought some great tools. All you need is a repeatable procedure and some practice to get great results. Good luck.
While all of the above answers are a very good way to check your set up. I have always used a set of refrence tools to measure against. I have a Starrett 1Meter straight edge and a Starrett 12" machinest square. I only use them to check my other Starrett and Woodpeckers measuring tools but, I do have a reliable reference and peace of mind.
Jack
Jack
Holmz
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I do not have a fence.
I squared the rail/track with dogs behind it, and moved the rear stop's set screw and front stop's set screw so that the back of the rail is parallel to the dogs. (This relies on the front and back of your rail bring parallel to each other.
As I use no fence, I need a way to have the material "square"... I use dogs to index the boards to.
This relies and the dog's holes being orthogonal, which they are.
I squared the rail/track with dogs behind it, and moved the rear stop's set screw and front stop's set screw so that the back of the rail is parallel to the dogs. (This relies on the front and back of your rail bring parallel to each other.
As I use no fence, I need a way to have the material "square"... I use dogs to index the boards to.
This relies and the dog's holes being orthogonal, which they are.
JZ Bowmannz
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Check your fence.
My first MFT 1080 fence was not straight, so my cut were always off a little. Second one was much better, and the problem went away on it's own.
My first MFT 1080 fence was not straight, so my cut were always off a little. Second one was much better, and the problem went away on it's own.
I keep a few large draftman's triangles in the shop to check square. They are inexpensive and quite precise. It would be a simple way to check your carpenter's square. If it is accurate, you can always just use it to create a mark where you want to cut, put the track there and cut. I haven't made my workbench yet so that is what I am doing. I've made a bench to support my RAS and CMS that way and also a couple storage units for my wife. They came out fine. It isn't the quickest but works fine. My accurate carpenters square is from HF, by the way. I wasn't counting on much when I bought it but it turned out to be accurate.
Because I don't have a MFT style bench yet, I haven't tried the dog routine but I wonder if there is not a source of error in holding the wood tight to the dogs and track tight to dogs. If you want to continue using them, you might still want to mark a layout line with a square to help avoid an error in holding the wood and/or track.
Lastly, Ron Paulk has a very nice bench for a Kapek. Would be inexpensive and pretty quick to put together. Also would store well if you have limited space. I have almost all his plans and will use some of his ideas when I get around to finishing up the worksurfaces of my current shop.
Because I don't have a MFT style bench yet, I haven't tried the dog routine but I wonder if there is not a source of error in holding the wood tight to the dogs and track tight to dogs. If you want to continue using them, you might still want to mark a layout line with a square to help avoid an error in holding the wood and/or track.
Lastly, Ron Paulk has a very nice bench for a Kapek. Would be inexpensive and pretty quick to put together. Also would store well if you have limited space. I have almost all his plans and will use some of his ideas when I get around to finishing up the worksurfaces of my current shop.
bdiemer said:
With the Woodpecker Saw Gauge, you can get your table saw to within 0.05mm if you have a good blade and arbor on your saw and a quality fence.
http://www.woodpeck.com/sawgauge.html
Jack
I use a similar product for my tablesaw and other devices and can assure it works. You'll have to spend some time getting it perfect, but the results will be worth the wait. At $79.99 it is well worth it.
Using other methods are haphazard at best and are not easy to re-validate.
Using other methods are haphazard at best and are not easy to re-validate.
nickao
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Any dial indicator system like that is nice, but without use a true steel plate in the arbor for the initial setup optimal performance won't be had. I dont trust my incra fence or saw blade for these kinds of measurements.
I suggest getting a master plate to use with the dial indicator, but make sure it's the precision ground one like Forrest sells, some Master Plates are not coming flat per Amazon reviews. Of course these are most helpful in table and band saws.
http://www.forrestblades.com/masterplate.html
http://www.amazon.com/Super-Bar-with-Master-Plate/dp/B001DSXHBM
I suggest getting a master plate to use with the dial indicator, but make sure it's the precision ground one like Forrest sells, some Master Plates are not coming flat per Amazon reviews. Of course these are most helpful in table and band saws.
http://www.forrestblades.com/masterplate.html
http://www.amazon.com/Super-Bar-with-Master-Plate/dp/B001DSXHBM
This will probably fall mainly on deaf ears but the high end stuff used for setting up woodworking machines is cool but really unnecessary. Buy and read John White's 'Care and Repair of Shop Machines: A Complete Guide to Setup, Troubleshooting, and Maintenance'. Save a lot of money and learn a little something.
polarsea1 said:
Well yeah, there's what's cool and what's necessary--and never the twain shall meet...
I like the book you mentioned--it is absolutely fundamental to be able to set up a machine correctly, to be able to troubleshoot sources of error etc. And just as essential to figure out what's an acceptable degree of accuracy for whatever type of woodworking we happen to be doing. I see a lot of crossover from the machining trades where people are trying to set up their woodworking machines with tools that were used on metal machining mills, etc.--so you see all sorts of gadgets that are super accurate but it seems a lot of people are not aware that a table saw cannot be setup as accurately as a mill, nor does it need to, because wood is what it is and it's vastly different from metal.
But I do love me a good gadget, especially if it saves me a bunch of steps and is useful across a bunch of tools, and it has frustration-lessening repeatability. And for me it's fun to attempt to set up a woodworking machine as close as I possibly can.
That doesn't mean that every gadget out there is worth the money. For example, the usefulness of the Master Plate is beyond me. Because you're measuring to the plate, but cutting with the blade. You can do a static test with any good square but you still need to do a dynamic check like a test cut if you're going to do fine work, and if you have a subpar blade, it's time to get a better one. The Woodpecker Saw Gauge also looks very limited in its design--it doesn't seem that it's capable of reaching other things to check. You have to stack these cylinders in the miter track to set it up. I think that you're introducing potential for error when you then have to slide the whole loose setup to the other side of the blade and then back, the way it's necessary in the method I use. These are definitely cases of "to each his own". I'm personally partial to the A-Line-It system that Jerry Cole came out with, for its' ease of use, repeatability, and application across many different types of machines. I also like the way William Ng calculates the error and adjusts his crosscut sled using the 5 cut method--check out his video on youtube.
