Newbie about to take the Festool plunge; A few questions.

[vesbon]

I'm a newbie to this website (and to Festool and woodworking in general)

I have a few questions about some of the tools in the Festool lineup.  But first, just a little about me.  I'm a hobby woodworker with a few years of intermittent practice (although not as much as I would like).  My goal is to build hardwood furniture, but I've been doing mostly sheet good stuff recently (garage cabinets, a bench, and a bookshelf).  In the future, I'll probably do 25% sheet good stuff, and the rest hardwood furniture.  I work out of my small 2-car garage (19' X 19') that shares with the family car and kids' toys.  So I need mobility because I move my tools around each time I need to work (and when I'm done they line the garage walls). 

Right now I have the following power tools: Delta lunchbox planer, Delta 14" bandsaw, Grizzly 8" jointer, Ridgid TS3650 Table saw, Makita 10" SCMS and a benchtop drill press.

Unfortunately, space is becoming and issue as my family grows.  The table saw is taking up too much space and frankly I'm not very fond of it (It's inherently unsafe, aftermarket guards are $200+, dust collection stinks, and cutting sheet goods is very challenging and takes up lots of space with infeed/outfeed tables). 

So I started thinking Festool because it's portable, small, and safe.  I've been doing heaps of research, but my main question is this: Can a TS 55, MFT table, Parallel edge guides, and a Festool router replace a table saw?  The answers I've researched are mixed, but the posts were rather old and the new parallel edge guides just came out.  Does that tip the scales in favor of getting rid of a table saw?  If I sell my table saw, I'll still keep my Makita SCMS because I love that tool. 

My other question is:  Are Festools appropriate for a hobby woodworker who wants to make mostly hardwood furniture and is tight on space?  I know the target market for Festool is contractors (for use on sheet goods), but the portability is what appeals to me due to limited space.   

Thanks

 

[Frank Pellow]

Welcome to the Festool Owners Group forum from a fellow "hobby woodworker who wants to make mostly hardwood furniture and is tight on space?" and, assuming that you are going to take the plunge, welcome to the world of Festool tools.

The short answer to your question about whether the tools are approriate to we hobby woodworkers is: YES

About the question "Can a TS 55, MFT table, Parallel edge guides, and a Festool router replace a table saw?"  The answer to this is also YES they can.  I do have and use a table saw (a General 650) in my woodworking shed, but I also work a lot offsite and can do anything with a TS 75, and MFT table, the MFS Multi-Routing Template, and a 1400 router that I can do with my table saw.  

I recommend to TS 75 becuase the increased depth of cut which can be important when making furniture.  The Multi-Routing Template assits in getting great accuracy and helps me when making several parts of the same size.  I don't have the paraellel edge guide, but I have used it, and it works well.

 

[Brice Burrell]

Hello vesbon, welcome to the FOG! Your questions come up often and for the most part the answers are mixed. The short answer is yes, the Festool system can replace a table. When the waters get muddied is the efficiency, some guys find the table saw more efficient for certain tasks. You can keep reading the forum to expand you Festool knowledge so you'll be better informed to make a decision. 

I recommend going to your local Festool dealer and trying these out. The good news is if you're in N. America Festool offers a 30 day no questions asked return policy, if these tools don't work out for you, return them.

Festool tools are used by a lot of hobbyists, I believe the majority of the members here are hobbyist. Good luck and again welcome to the forum. 

 

[tbellemare]

What Frank said...

I would add to that by suggesting the Guide Stop for the router. It allows you to use the Guide Rails as a means of running the router in a straight line with very fine adjustment about where that line will be.

There are two parallel guides for the TS saws...

There are the traditional Parallel Guides that attach directly to the saw for using the saw without a Guide Rail. The Festool version works so much better than the typical ones and can be used on both sides of the saw effectively.

There are also the Parallel Guides for Guide Rails that attach to the Guide Rails and are used to make repeat, parallel cuts. They sort of turn the TS saws into upside-down table saws. Their advantages are many and have been written about in several threads here.

Edit: What Brice said too, I think he pulled the trigger about the same time I did.

Tom

 

[vesbon]

Thanks for the info.  By the way, I live in the Chicago area, so I plan to hit my local Woodcraft store to get a feel for these tools.  Also, since my real name (Greg) is so common, I had to make up a username.  In fact, my first few attempts at a made-up username were already taken... must be a popular forum! 

I can see where a table saw might be more efficient in some cases, but that's actually not a big concern for me.  I enjoy the process as much as the outcome, so speed isn't a big concern (and it's just a hobby too).  However, what about accuracy?  Is the Festool system as accurate as a good table saw?  From what I read you have to line up the rails to the cut line, visually, which could invite error (esp. for repeat cuts). 

-Greg

 

[jeffinsgf]

The good news is that for those few times when a table saw configuration is more efficient (ripping hardwood stock, for example), you will soon be able to turn a Festool saw upside down and use it in that configuration.  

In looking at a UK Festool catalog PDF, I was thrilled to see that the CMS system is going to work with my "antique" AT-65.

Where does the line form for the first CMS shipment?   [big grin]

Greg,

re: repeat cut accuracy.  That's where the parallel guides will shine.

 

[Bob Marino]

Vesbon,

Good advice allready given and if I can just add a bit to it. I have a somewhat similar setup as you - 2 car garage as shop; things need be mobile for efficiency, tools must be chosen wisely. For what the TS  won't cut properly/efficiently you have your bandsaw. So what if in some instances (as Brice pointed out) a table saw can be more efficient? Space is your major  limitation and all can be done with the Festool saw and/or bandsaw.
Absolutely, Festool would be the preferred (if it's in your) option for you.

Bob

 

[CharlesWilson]

Definitely cut your sheet goods down to size with the TS-55 or TS-75.

However, don't discard your table saw just yet. For now, push it up against a wall, lower the blade, remove the fence and use it as a tabletop until you are sure you will be happy without it.

Charles

 

[Frank Pellow]

Definitely cut your sheet goods down to size with the TS-55 or TS-75.

However, don't discard your table saw just yet. For now, push it up against a wall, lower the blade, remove the fence and use it as a tabletop until you are sure you will be happy without it.

Charles

I agree with this advise.  I certainly would not give up my table saw (even though there is nothing that I can not do without it).

 

[Brice Burrell]

I think a good option for the guys that want a table saw but don't have a lot of space is some like the Bosch 4100 with gravity rise stand. It can folded up and stored against a wall out of the way. 

 

[Holzhacker]

I have to disagree with Brice on the Bosch table saw recommendation. I do NOT like that saw, never have, doubt I ever will. A friend I used to do installs with has that saw. I never liked using that thing, it always worried me for some reason. The saw just had a bad vibe. I used to warn him about that saw. It took 3 1/2 of his fingers off of one hand. He's not a newbie either, he grew up in a shop. My dad used to buy from his dad. He does ok these days but with only 6 1/2 fingers working is far more difficult.
Markus

 

[vesbon]

Yeah, I'm certainly hesitant to sell my table saw (I paid $600 for it, plus about $100 in accessories).  I could probably only get $300 if I sold it.  If that were the only issue, it's certainly valuable to keep.  However, it's really the space issue.  The rails are somewhat long, the motor hangs off the back, so the total footprint is quite large.  That said, it's still doable at the moment, but a real pain with all the kids toys, strollers, etc.  taking up valuable space (which will only get worse).  My only other option is to build a small shed, which on my postage stamp yard isn't ideal (not to mention an eyesore due to landscaping and the way the yard is layed out).

-Greg

 

[Neill]

Greg,

I find it hard to believe that you would be able to get rid of your tablesaw and not regret the decision.  I think you would be back at your dealer or looking elsewhere for a used one.

I have a table saw and also the TS55.  They both have their strengths and weaknesses.  One of the problems I have found with the TS55 is the amount of setup time.  You have to mark the cutline then lineup the rail with the line.  You also have to have a system to ensure that all is square.  While the rail secures the material pretty well, if you bump it you have to start all over.  If you have a "hiccup" in the middle of your cut (such as hitting a knot) and the piece moves you have a problem.

I find the 55 best for crosscuts.  Ripcuts are OK if the rip is not too long and the piece is not real narrow.  The TS shines on crosscuts and ripcuts of any size.  Needless to say a good, sharp blade with the correct tooth pattern is essential.

Neill

 

[Bob Marino]

Greg,

I find it hard to believe that you would be able to get rid of your tablesaw and not regret the decision.  I think you would be back at your dealer or looking elsewhere for a used one.

I have a table saw and also the TS55.  They both have their strengths and weaknesses.  One of the problems I have found with the TS55 is the amount of setup time.  You have to mark the cutline then lineup the rail with the line.  You also have to have a system to ensure that all is square.  While the rail secures the material pretty well, if you bump it you have to start all over.  If you have a "hiccup" in the middle of your cut (such as hitting a knot) and the piece moves you have a problem.

I find the 55 best for crosscuts.  Ripcuts are OK if the rip is not too long and the piece is not real narrow.  The TS shines on crosscuts and ripcuts of any size.  Needless to say a good, sharp blade with the correct tooth pattern is essential.

Neill

Neill,

I am not going to speak for Vesbon, but I was in a similar circumstance - 2 car garage; trying to make the most out of a small shop that had to be shared with bicycles, snow blower, garden equipment, etc, so portability and maneuverability were critical. I had a tablesaw and sold it. I finally am claiming my shop back for myself, had a shed built (thanks Per to house the non-shop items. Doesn't seem like Vesbon is going to go with a shed. No question, some things are going to be faster and easier with a tablesaw, and in a larger shop, or a more commercial shop, I am with you BUT in a shop where space is critical and you have to start moving everything around and out of the way, and there is little room to move on thing without moving 5 other things, it's frustrating...to say the least.
Festool (as others have shown here) has addressed the repeatability/squareness issues to a large degree and I am not missing my tablesaw enough for regrets.

Bob

 

[John D]

Woodworking is a hobby for me as well with limited shop space.  I started with Porter Cable tools, moved to Bosch, and am now using Festool.  I'm really happy with the Festool equipment.  Their tools work together as a system such as the router/circular with the guide rails.  If you're doing sheet goods the circular saw with the guide rails can't be beat.  Their tools can also be real time savers - I often don't have a lot of time to spend in the shop and like to make the best use of what time I have available.  The Domino makes creating cabinets a breeze and since the cuts are repeatable I am able to start a project one night and come back to it later and the joints I make one night match up with the joints I make another night without any effort at all.  The tools also pick up after themselves - the dust collection is second to none - this also saves time since I can now spend more time working and less time sweeping. 

John

 

[Gene Howerton]

I agree with what Bob and John have said and I too am a hobbyist. I work in a one car garage where space is at a premium and Festool works great.  I sold my Delta Contractors Saw last year after acquiring more Festool Equipment, since the saw took up too must space.

Like most here I have bought a few rounds of tools.  I started with a Shopsmith, and then the Delta Contractors Saw and Porter-Cable Equipment now Festool.  I wish I would have know about Festool earlier.  Think of the money I could have saved if I had just started out with Festool.

I first heard of Festool from John Lucas at Woodshop Demos, after I bought the first round of tools I was hooked.  On the table saw question, I think not having one now, I sometimes miss mine.  Ripping narrow pieces is best done on a table saw it is just faster and easier.  I bought the parallel set and they work OK, but not as quick or as good as a table saw.  Brice mentioned the Bosch 4100 saw with the gravity stand.  I have taken a hard look at that one, but I am hoping Festool will bring over the CMS system next year and that will take care of the ripping and table saw question, with the added bonus of Festool's great dust collection and the system approach.  If not I will probably purchase the Bosch.

Festool, in my opinion, can't be beat.  The tools are great, will last forever the way I use them, they are extremely save, accurate and with the dust collection a joy to use.  Also I have three daughters, ages 5, 12 & 14 and they also enjoy using the tools.  I would never let the older ones use a table saw but they both have used the TS-55 and the younger is always vacuuming the shop with my Midi.  They have all helped on sanding.  As others have said, they are great time savers for hobbyist, no cleanup time, no breathing sawdust.  I also think they are a great value for the price, if you think long term, quality costs money but value stays.

 

[Shawn]

stuck on a table saw? mount the ts55 upsidedown on the mft3.... this insert is created by a fog forum member, watch that vid if you havent already... type in festool table saw on youtube, or it is available in various locations on this forum!!

 

[mwhafner]

Welcome to the FOG

I think you have gotten the advice you sought.  The Festool system can pretty easily replace a tablesaw, but may not always be the fastest or easiest way to get the job done.  As Bob mentioned, a well-tuned bandsaw can easily perform most of the functions where the Festool system may not excel.  I couldn't do away with my tablesaw, but I can certainly get by with a much smaller saw than using traditional methods.  I also don't use them near as often.

I completely disagree with Holzhacker's thoughts on the Bosch 4100.  I doubt that the saw's design had anything to do with his friend's accident.  I am not a big fan of the stand, but the saw is excellent.  It is the only tablesaw that I have used where I would actually use the safety devices.  It is an extremely well designed saw.

 

[honeydoman]

Greg (visbon)

Welcome.  with the ts75 which would be better for cutting thicker hardwords and the rails will work fine for your needs along with the mft3.  and as your love of festools grows you will want to get more and more and more!  I dont think it ever stops!  lol

the 1400 router also is a great one to add also.

I would keep the table saw, because they always have a small need in a shop for some applications that are just easier, even though festool system can hanlde all the needs, but since you already have it keep it.

search the forum and it will help with with questions, ideas and projects.

ALSO LOOKING FORWARD TO SEEING SOME OF THE PICTURES OF YOUR FURNITURE YOU MAKE !

have fun and go and spend some bucks on festools!  well worth the investment.  ( i am up to about 20 gran now in just festool stuff) but I do this stuff for a living.... it is a never ending cycle!

 

[vesbon]

Thanks for all the excellent advice.  Now it's time to have "the talk" with my wife. 

-Greg