Newbie cost justification

[b_m_hart]

Hi all.  It's funny.  I never once in my life had the urge to do any woodworking, until I got the GC bids to remodel my kitchen that included one zero more than I thought it would.

So, I decided to get down to it, and learn how to do some of this stuff myself.  I'm making my countertops myself (http://b.m.hart1.googlepages.com/home), and am curious about what it would cost to make cabinets as well.  I understand that I will spend a fair amount of money on materials learning some of the basics, but I don't really have an issue with that.

My issue, is figuring out what tools I would need (as opposed to what tools I would want, haha) for the job.  I bought an ETS 150/5 sander and the mini vac to even up some of the plaster in my house, so other than that, I'm festool-less.  I have a junker table saw, and it has helped me come to the realization that if I want to do work that's approaching good, I need the right tools for the job.

So, my question is: to build my own kitchen cabinets, as a newbie, what tool(s) would you guys recommend?  I want to be able to say to the wifey "look, we can spend X on cabinets from a manufacturer, or I can make them for Y, even if I spend all this money on tools"...

 

[dirtydeeds]

if you are doing framed cabinets (very old hat these days) then a domino would help

but, its far quicker to use modular construction and cup hinges

(there is a topic somewhere on this forum showing you the basics of the construction method)

you NEED a festool TS55 and guide rails to cut the material

a LR 32 system and its guide rail is VERY useful, it will also set your hinge cups

to make the LR32 system work you need an OF1010

if you are going with profile and scribe (cope and stick) doors, then an OF1400 in a router table

WHOOPS, i didnt answer the countertop (worktop) bit, my comments are about carcass construction

having never made a concrete countertop im not certain on any special considerations

HOWEVER, i do know about formwork

the easiest method for the soffit would be to install "permanent formwork", so you have a simple install and you dont have to strike it, it saves time and effort in this type of situation

make sure you avoid right angles on the edges of the counter top (these will need strikable formwork)

first, its difficult to compact concrete into right angles, because air bubbles form in them

second, concrete has a very low tension strength, so right angle edges snap off very easily when you strike

formwork is constructed differently to joinery / carpentry work, you MUST construct formwork "backwards" so you can strike it

do not hammer nails fully home on temporary strutting, leave the heads proud so you can "pull them"   

IF the countertop needs reinforcement, ensure you have sufficient concrete cover over it

concrete surfaces are porus, so if any water gets to steel reinforcement it will stain the concrete with rust

in time rust can "blow" the concrete because rust (iron oxide ?) has a greater volume than steel

rust can exert 100 lbs per square foot (remember concrete has a low torsion strength)

however the rinforcement (if any) in a countertop will probably be a small wire mesh, so the "blowing" problem will not be of any import

 

[jonny round boy]

Welcome!

I must say, I'm well impressed with your concrete countertops (or worktops, as we call them!).

I fit kitchens for a living (well I'm supposed to, but with the trade as it is here at the moment I'm not breaking even, let alone making a living!) and I've been asked for concrete tops twice - both times I've either talked them out of it or walked away.

Do you have a background in this kind of work? If not, that makes your decision to try this yourself even more brave!

I take my hat off to you, sir! Or I would do, if I had a hat. But you get the point.

 

[Dan Clermont]

if you are doing framed cabinets (very old hat these days) then a domino would help

but, its far quicker to use modular construction and cup hinges

(there is a topic somewhere on this forum showing you the basics of the construction method)

you NEED a festool TS55 and guide rails to cut the material

a LR 32 system and its guide rail is VERY useful, it will also set your hinge cups

to make the LR32 system work you need an OF1010

if you are going with profile and scribe (cope and stick) doors, then an OF1400 in a router table

I concur with DIrty Deeds and and strongly suggest the Domino.

Dan Clermont

 

[Cannuck]

I love my Domino and would of course highly recommend it.  If, after you've purchased the "mandatory" tools that Dirty Deeds mentioned, money is an issue - then you might want to opt for a Kreg pocket hole jig.  Its not anywhere as versatile (or cool) as a Domino, but it will come in extremely handy when assembling.

 

[dirtydeeds]

more on concreting

the method i "set out" above was insitu concreting

i note from the link that the method they advocate is "unit" prefabbing

both methods are valid and both methods have drawbacks in the situation

the biggest drawbacks with the "unit" prefabbing is the shear weight lifting them into place AND if you need to level them the problem is weight again

the biggest drawback with the insitu method is that there are no joints (if the kitchen floor settles unevenly the top could potentially crack (although reinforcement will help avoid the problem)

finishing insitu isnt a real problem, ive finished plastic worktops (a type of corian) insitu

 

[dirtydeeds]

more on tools

for polishing your worktop (countertop) a 150 rotex would be a real benefit

the boys here will recommend the "correct" abrasives for concrete, but i have smoothed render with Brilliant 2 pads

just in case "render" isnt a word you recognise, its a strongish sand cement mix that is troweled onto the external face of brickwork walls

if the overall tool budget is just a "few" quid beyond your budget, simple carcass construction is just as valid with a biscuit jointer as a domino

cannuck's suggestion of a kreg pocket hole jig is another alternative

 

[b_m_hart]

I could have cast a single piece for the countertops, but I have NOOOOO interest in figuring out how to lug out a 14' slab of concrete that weighs 500+ lbs out of my basement / garage and up into the house... and then gently lifting it into place!  This is the first time I've done anything with concrete, so I had to buy the tools to make it (I spent about $1000 on low end tools from ebay and lowe's / etc).  The concrete grinding and polishing was done with a wet grinder, with resin diamond pads ranging 50 grit up to 3000.  The materials for the slabs was relatively inexpensive, about $60 for the dozen 80 lb bags, and another $200 for the dye / microfibers, faucet knockouts, slurry that matches the dye color, etc.  I figured it would be a good idea to just buy the kit for the color rather than try to mess around with the proportions on my own the first time.

The last piece is waiting for me to set next to the piece that the sink is going into, such that I can grind and polish it to match.  Once that's done, it cures for three weeks, and I install them on the existing cabinets.  Once on, I will slurry the seams, do one last wet polish in place, seal and wax them.  It will be super messy in the house, but that's how it goes.  I figure that was better than blowing my back out (along with 8 or my closest friends).

As far as the cabinets go, I have exactly zero clue about doing anything related... other than, "they're made outta wood, and you have to put 'em together somehow".  So any terminology is completely lost on me at this point, haha. 

I'll check the forum for the thread on the construction basics.  Basically, I'm trying to figure out what it will cost to pick up the tools and all of the materials, then compare that to the cost of buying nicer semi-custom cabinets.  I love the idea of making them myself.  Of course, if I actually make my own cabinets, it'll mean making new countertops, but that's OK with me, I'll be able to do some 'fun' stuff that's a bit more advanced than the straight line stuff I did.

Thanks for the feedback so far!

 

[poto]

This will sound outrageous - particularly on this forum - but have you considered buying the cabinet carcases from IKEA? They're surprisingly sturdy and durable, and simple to assemble. You could do you own drawers, doors, etc., and save a bundle. The downside is that you don't need any of the expensive Festools to put them together 

As for addressing your original post, I'd definitely go with the TF55, and I'd also advocate for the MFT3 (since the 1080's aren't available any more). From there a lot depends on what style of door you're doing on the cabinets. I love my OF1010 router...

 

[rwdawson]

b_m_hart,

If you haven't seen it, this link should be useful.
http://festoolownersgroup.com/index.php?topic=1315.0

By the looks of your concrete work, you should have little trouble building and documenting cabinets.

As for tools, previous suggestions are spot on.

Good luck, keep us posted,

Richard

 

[honeydoman]

you have a choice,  if you learn and do it yourself, it will cost cost you more than if the gc did it.  however you will have 4,000 of tools to use in the future. and your cabinets will still not come out as you would buy from a professional cabinet shop. but you did them yourself.

but go for it and learn how to do it.  you may want to check sommerfeld tools for wood or the Kregtool company they both sell dvds on how to build cabinets that is very good.

lot goes into building cabinets including remember to deduct 1/4" for back, plywood is not 3/4 it is  23/32 and that when you put to together makes a difference, sometimes etc.

then you have the finish on the cabinets.  paint?  stain?  have you ever stained.

any way go for it and learn and then have fun.

 

[semenza]

Hi,

  Welcome to the forum
        You are going to end up doing a lot of reading on this forum about these tools and procedures. Enjoy.

                    TS55

                    Domino

                    Long guide rail 2700 or 3000

                    OF1400 and / or other router in table

                    MFT3

                    Since you are going for kitchen cabinets the LR32 and maybe the OF1010 router.

                    Cordless drill if you don't have one.

           The OF1400 is a bit more all purpose than the OF1010 and has some better features.  But the 1010 is light handy and will do most of what you want for hand held use.  The sander that you already have will be an excellent for the job.

 Check out this thread  Guide Rails There are additional threads to look at contained in the postst in this one.

    I am not sure what your tool budget is but I would think that you could buy quite a few tools plus materials before you meet the price of hiring pros.
Have fun

Seth
                                         

                   
                     
                     

 

[b_m_hart]

you have a choice,  if you learn and do it yourself, it will cost cost you more than if the gc did it.  however you will have 4,000 of tools to use in the future. and your cabinets will still not come out as you would buy from a professional cabinet shop. but you did them yourself.

but go for it and learn how to do it.  you may want to check sommerfeld tools for wood or the Kregtool company they both sell dvds on how to build cabinets that is very good.

lot goes into building cabinets including remember to deduct 1/4" for back, plywood is not 3/4 it is  23/32 and that when you put to together makes a difference, sometimes etc.

then you have the finish on the cabinets.  paint?  stain?  have you ever stained.

any way go for it and learn and then have fun.

Oh, I have no doubts whatsoever that my workmanship at first will not match that of "the factory", or even someone that's done that work before.  I also realize that there's a LOT of work that goes into these sorts of things (my uncle builds high end custom homes out in the Boston area), and have listened to him talk about the amount of time it takes him to make a cabinet or piece of furniture in his off time.

As far as it costing more than the GC, well, that's not going to happen.  It certainly will not be done nearly as fast, and maybe it won't be done as well, but it isn't going to cost as much money.  It will cost me my time, so if you want to get into the economics of that, I suppose, then you could potentially be correct there.

As far as whether or not I've done any of that stuff you mentioned?  Nope, not a single thing.  However, I am not afraid to read, read, read, then try it, and am not discouraged by failing in my initial attempt(s). 

What I do see, is the cabinets that I've got, which would cost me about $15k - 20K to replace if I bought them retail (after their 55% discount, which is still a racket).  The quality isn't anything approaching impressive.  I'm sure I could chew through a buck or two worth of lumber and supplies, and learn how to make as good, if not better quality cabinets.  Maybe I'm fooling myself, but if I'm going to invest a bunch of money in tools, I don't really have much of a choice but to learn how to at that point

 

[sw1211]

1st, as others have probably mentioned you need to decide on style.  Paint vs stained, raised panel doors, etc.  Once you define your style you can start narrowing down your tool needs.  I'd suggest Kreg Jig, router table and bits (check out those new Quad cut Freud bits), MFT3, TS55, thickness planer and or drum sander.  Don't forget finishing, might need to drop some bucks on a HVLP set-up.  And if you'll be buying some rough lumber you might want a band saw too.  I have everything to build a kitchen, but to date all I have is the worlds most expensive medicine cabinet and a few other small projects.  All my good intentions haven't translated into results quite yet.

 

[tallgrass]

first....i like your counter top......second  i thought about not buying everything but failed. : my only advice is to buy carefully. think of the tools as a system, i know this sounds like advertising but the tools are too expensive, to buy haphazardly, but you will find that they are linked. for example all the rail i buy has the holes for 32 whole set. remember you get rail in the mft that you can combine with the rail that comes with the saw,also try to buy the the tools in pairs that have the deals. saving every penny works. i miss getting new festools.....you are lucky and you are going to have a great time!

 

[valerko]

Just out of curiosity, how big is the kitchen and what look you going for.Pictures of existing and what you want would help.
15-20k in cabinetry is a hell of a kitchen.

 

[Woodenfish]

What I do see, is the cabinets that I've got, which would cost me about $15k - 20K to replace if I bought them retail (after their 55% discount, which is still a racket).  The quality isn't anything approaching impressive.  I'm sure I could chew through a buck or two worth of lumber and supplies, and learn how to make as good, if not better quality cabinets.  Maybe I'm fooling myself, but if I'm going to invest a bunch of money in tools, I don't really have much of a choice but to learn how to at that point

I'm not trying to insult you but you come across as incredibly naive as to what it costs to build and complete quality kitchen cabinetry.

 

[Fred West]

b_m_hart, please disregard ANYTHING that poto may suggest as anyone that tells you NOT to buy festools is obviously deranged.  We will soon be instituting paperwork to have him committed and brought up to speed on the proper response when a newbie asks what festools to purchase. 

Now to the point I would very much agree with DD on the domino and in addition I would suggest the Rotex 150 and the ETS 150/5 or 150/3. I would also go with either the OF1400 and/or the MFK 700 and the MFT/3. Other than that use what you have.  8) Fred

 

[poto]

Yow! Those thumbscrews really hurt! Mea culpa, mea culpa, mea maxima culpa. Domino. Definitely need a Domino. As for sanders, the RO150 is great, but it doesn't get into corners.

Seriously, though, you're going to want a bunch of accessories for your MTF3, including the clamping elements, some hold-down clamps (I use the Jorgensen), and I really like the Lee Valley Wonderdogs for snugging things horizontally. You'll also want some of the profile clamps that slot into the guide rails, etc. They're pretty indispensible.

Can't believe I was suggesting not buying Festools. Don't know what came over me.

Have fun doing this. It's a lot harder than you think. Making the cabinets, etc., is not hard. It's making them so that they don't warp, that the doors close, that the drawers are all parallel, that the countertop's level, etc., that's difficult. I'm a reasonably accomplished woodworker, but after seeing my friend's kitchen (he's a much more experienced woodworker than I - used to have a business) in which he had made the cabinets, I said, "Leave it to the professionals." I'll stick with what I can do... I now have a brand-new kitchen, and all the problems (I haven't found any) are somebody else's fault! That's worth $10K to me  ;D

 

[Fred West]

Poto, much better and now at least while you sleep you may have the thumbscrews taken off.  8) Fred