OF2200: Curved Base

[Groggy]

I was invited to do a review on the OF2200 but after some fairly basic checks the review was abandoned. None of the bases were flat and a check of a few bases from other machines were the same. Each was crowned in the centre with a 1 to 1.5mm drop to the edges.

It has now been a few months and no reply from Festool despite occasional contact. I see this as a fundamental flaw and would be interested in others thoughts. Does anyone own one that would be willing to check and comment?

 

[tbellemare]

I just took the base off an OF 2200 randomly from our stock and placed it flat on a profile from a MFS. It sits completely flat with no gaps.

So I put it back on the router and repeated the same comparison, with the same results.

Can you please describe your measurement process? Also, I was comparing the standard base that is on the router in the 574277 package

Tom

 

[Groggy]

Describe my measurement process? I placed an accurate flat edge on the base and a light source behind it. There was a clear prominence in the centre ring that fell away towards the outside of the base.

The other straight edges (rulers) used confirmed the result, the ruler was not bent or damaged in any way, the router base was CLEARLY not flat on more than one router and each of the bases. Measurement was visual only. I will point out that using the same technique with the same straight edge when I returned home showed flat bases on two other brand routers.

Thank you for confirming it does not apply to your stock.

 

[gasman]

I have the OF2200 - now mounted in the CMS - it is absolutely awesome - quite the most stable, most accurate router table I have ever seen. The router base was absolutely flat when I got it and it has not had a fault. So I am surprised that you have a non-flat one. Some of the features - like the ingenious way of changing the router bits with the ratcheted locking mechanism - are exceptional

 

[Groggy]

I have the OF2200 - now mounted in the CMS - it is absolutely awesome - quite the most stable, most accurate router table I have ever seen. The router base was absolutely flat when I got it and it has not had a fault. So I am surprised that you have a non-flat one. Some of the features - like the ingenious way of changing the router bits with the ratcheted locking mechanism - are exceptional

Yes it is an awesome router (when the base is flat). This thread is not about that. I stated that I saw this as a fundamental flaw. In other words, no matter how good the rest of the router, if it does not have a flat base it is useless for most purposes.

I know I will get flamed for this, but, the CMS I looked at had a cupped fence extrusion. When I figure out how to post a picture here I will show it. These things, to me at least, are fundamental and I was very disappointed in them. Especially seeing them on the same day. I love my Festools, they are great, but bowed bases and cupped fences? No thanks, I think people need to know so they can look before they buy.

 

[Eli]

I don't use the stock fence with the CMS, so I didn't even bother checking it. I bought the other one, the one that goes on the CS-50. It's great. Stock one is in a dusty toolbox. I might sell it.

I didn't like that stock fence from go, but it isn't really designed to work like a regular TS fence anyway I don't think, where the CS-50 LA ripping fence is more traditional, and securely fastens front and back. I agree it should have no variation across the face. If I can be bothered digging mine out I'll check it and post results.

 

[Brice Burrell]

Yes it is an awesome router (when the base is flat). This thread is not about that. I stated that I saw this as a fundamental flaw. In other words, no matter how good the rest of the router, if it does not have a flat base it is useless for most purposes.

I know I will get flamed for this, but, the CMS I looked at had a cupped fence extrusion. When I figure out how to post a picture here I will show it. These things, to me at least, are fundamental and I was very disappointed in them. Especially seeing them on the same day. I love my Festools, they are great, but bowed bases and cupped fences? No thanks, I think people need to know so they can look before they buy.

Groggy, I understand your post and I agree this is a  fundamental flaw if this problem can't be worked out. Have you tried to place the router on a flat surface and see if the weight of the 2200 flattens out the cupping? Try it on a table saw top or jointer/planer table. Could it be the phenolic base distorting?? What if you remove the phenolic, if that's possible and look at the metal structure of the base to see if it is flat.

Contrary what some other people think, we are allowed to voice opinions about problems with the tools and since you have done so in a constructive way I can't see why you would be flamed.

 

[nickao]

It always comes back to quality control, which I think Festool is not the greatest at.

 

[tbellemare]

I also don't see any sense in "flaming" anyone with information to share.

I reacted immediately to your post, Groggy, because I absolutely HATE to sell anything that isn't as described or expected. A lot of times when buying tools, people don't read the spec's carefully enough or they make rash assumptions and are disappointed, which always costs us in the end because we have to make the customer happy. What you are pointing out is a problem, apparently in quality control, which surprises me from Festool.

After having seen your pictures, I am going to go back and recheck though I'm pretty sure my first examination was accurate.

Tom

 

[nickao]

Tom I just do not see how that could surprise you. I will not rehash but in my personal experience I have had trouble with;

the Domino, the kapex, 3 of 6 different mft 1080 from different suppliers as well as the longer 77 in extrusions and one CT33.

When the tools work they are totally awesome and I guess if you take the number of total  festools I have into account the percentage of problems is 10% which still seems a little high.

No problems with the routers at all in any way, not having flat bases etc, though the 2200 is one I do not have.

 

[Groggy]

If you look at the picture supplied the base is not attached to the router, therefore the base is not affecting it.

Even when fitted the base(s) has the same distortion.

I do not believe the base is designed to distort under weight as you imply. That is a behaviour of earlier router plates like the Rousseau, where they were designed to sag into position. The plates in this router are reinforced and rigid.

Hand pressure on the ruler did not push the plate down (check the blood in my fingernail - I was pushing firmly). During light use that plate would rock and leave a waved finish. This would not be acceptable in a $100 router, let alone this one.

I am interested in whether this is a common issue. Tom says his are perfectly flat, so either his are at fault or they are not designed to be domed like the one pictured.

This is not a thread started to criticise Festool, it is intended to generate discussion and awareness of an issue discovered during the very first stages of a review. If this is truly unique I would be very surprised that only two or three routers have the 'problem', and they were all in the same store at the same time. If not, then caveat emptor applies. The same theory will also apply to the CMS fences.

 

[cneville101]

I'm afraid that I don't see this to be the major problem that others are making it out to be.  I get that there is a little light visible between your straight edge and the base... but have you been able to demonstrate ANY noticeable impact that has actually had on the quality of an edge??  Isn't that what we all care about? 

Someone mentioned that this problem would result in a wavy cut... I'm afraid that I have to call bologna on that one.  A 1/1,000,000" defect is not a big deal people.  If you cut a 12" or 54" table edge with that router base, I'd bet my left nut that NO ONE would notice a problem.  (even if there was a tiny wave... I leave those details and name them my A-hole identifiers... as anyone who takes the time to inspect my work that carefully and then criticize such a minor defect is a true A-hole).  I have been woodworking for 12 years and have yet to make a single item that was without a slight imperfection - perhaps that it careless on my part... or it is recognition that there is only one perfect being in the universe.  Either way, if you take the time to hunt out and find my imperfections, shame on you.

I get that Festool products are expensive.  Believe me, I get that.  I think that it is much more reasonable to ask Festool to bring their tool prices in-line with reality than it is to ask Festool to manufacture PERFECT products with zero imperfection 100% of the time.  I can tolerate a base that is a billionth of an inch out of flat - simply because the measuring tapes that I use have at least 1/16" slop in them and my pencil line thickness varies as I wear away the point...

Perhaps Festool brings this level of scrutiny on itself by charging so much for its products.  The cost obviously imparts the impression to the user that they have a reasonable expectation of absolute perfection.  I paid the same money that everyone else did (TS 75, Domino, CT22, Trion, C12 driver, MFT 3, Kapex, RO 150 FEQ, ETS 150) - I also expect the tools to do their job well - but, absolute perfection...  not realistic.

Chris

 

[tbellemare]

I took another look at the base I previously inspected.

With only backlighting, I can see a really small gap in the annulus of the phoenolic except the edges. It looks like the outer perimeter and inner perimeter of the phenolic (the machined surfaces) have an almost imperceptibly greater thickness than the undisturbed "field". I think this is a result of the machining.

Anyone have any experience machinig phenolic and micro-measuring the resulting thickness?

Tom

 

[Brice Burrell]

Groggy, I'm with you, this is a problem. If you can see the effects of this issue in the cut then it's a major problem. Forget Chris' comments and let's look at what is causing this problem. Is it the phenolic or the aluminum of the sub-base?

 

[cneville101]

Groggy, I'm with you, this is a problem. If you can see the effects of this issue in the cut then it's a major problem. Forget Chris' comments and let's look at what is causing this problem. Is it the phenolic or the aluminum of the sub-base?

This is the attitude that starts fights on blogs... what makes your comments more valid than anyone else's?  Perhaps you are also a more talented reader than I am, but I didn't see any indication that Groggy had cut a single piece of wood that would allow him to see this major problem. 

From his post... he did "some fairly basic checks the review was abandoned".  Not a single word about how this problem translated into real, observable issues in wood and not a single picture demonstrating this observable problem. 

Since I didn't flame anyone (and I didn't call anyone out by name) and since all I requested was a little reason when posting about our problems, I'll just wait in the corner for your apology. 

Chris

 

[nickao]

Well I can see a problem with it for certain inlay techniques I use.

If the base is not extremely flat the pocket I cut for letters can have side walls that pinch in or out. Then when I cut the letter the outer walls of the letter can pinch in or out. When I place the letter in the pocket it could be way to tight or to loose leaving a gap.

I can think of other issues to. As far as an edge on a table I have had clients rub there fingers up against the edges and comment on the "wave" even if it is not visible and if a high gloss is employed a "little wave" looks awful. So the "A hole clients" as you call them are pretty demanding.

For general routing it may not be a problem but letting the problem go and calling clients that call you on it, "A holes" is wrong, they may be demanding and want more than they paid for. All my work has slight defects to, but I explicitly state that as a feature of hand made work in advance to the buyer or client. But they are not "A holes" for noting the defects.

 

[tbellemare]

The reason I asked whether anyone has experience machining phenolic is because on this one, it looks like the machined edges are almost imperceptably thicker than the rest of it.

In my imagination, I can see the heat generated from machining having an effect on the phenolic resins but I really don't know if that's likely.

Tom

 

[cneville101]

Well I can see a problem with it for certain inlay techniques I use.

If the base is not extremely flat the pocket I cut for letters can have side walls that pinch in or out. Then when I cut the letter the outer walls of the letter can pinch in or out. When I place the letter in the pocket it could be way to tight or to loose leaving a gap.

I can think of other issues to. As far as an edge on a table I have had clients rub there fingers up against the edges and comment on the "wave" even if it is not visible and if a high gloss is employed a "little wave" looks awful. So the "A hole clients" as you call them are pretty demanding.

For general routing it may not be a problem but letting the problem go and calling clients that call you on it, "A holes" is wrong, they may be demanding and want more than they paid for. All my work has slight defects to, but I explicitly state that as a feature of hand made work in advance to the buyer or client. But they are not "A holes" for noting the defects.

Show me the problem.  So far we have a base that is out of flat by the width of a piece of paper - (from what I can tell).  All I am asking for is for SOMEONE to show me the problem that this has actually caused in wood.  

So far, everyone is talking in theoreticals... not a single ACTUAL problem.  

Next... I NEVER SAID "CLIENTS".  I rarely sell any of my pieces.  I've been in sales for 20 years... I sell equipment that retails for up to $2,500,000 dollars - I understand demanding clients.  

There is a difference between a demanding client and an A-hole (if you want to argue that A-holes don't exist, then you are being obtuse).  A demanding customer might say..

"Our contract stipulates delivery by Sept 1.  I don't care that your power tools died and it is going to take 4 weeks to replace them - beg, borrow or steal tools... I just need the piece that I paid for to be in my living room before my end of summer party.  We have a contract and if you don't meet your delivery date, then you are going to compensate me".  

An A-hole, might look at your labor or love, the piece that you broke your back to make perfect, and upon delivery she runs her hand along the edge, and with a dismissive glance states, "oh, it's OK... I mean it feels a little wavy... I just expected more".  

The first example has nothing to do with the quality of your work - just business.  They may actually cost you money.. but, they are demanding.   The second example is all personal and a snooty dismissal of your work - she could still pay your fee and cost you nothing... but, she is an A-hole.

Now back to what I was originally referring to... I make a beautiful set of built ins for my family room (I get many compliments from neighbors as they witness me making most of my projects)... but, let's say my Mother in Law comes in, runs her hand along the edge and rather than say what a nice job it is... she says "the top feels wavy"...  Is she not an A-hole???

That was what I was referring to - my projects, not for sale, someone else offering up an opinion and instead of saying something nice, they find the ONE minor flaw.  Definition of A-hole in Webster's... look it up.

Lastly - many of us have used inlay on pieces... if your piece is so delicate that a base plate on the OF2200 being out of perfectly flat will ruin the inlay... then I suggest that you might be using the wrong beast to do your inlay.  I have a scrollsaw and a bandsaw with which I do inlay - never bothered to analyze the flatness of either surface.  I would be very surprised if either table was perfectly flat.

Chris

 

[Steve Jones]

Well speaking as someone who doesn't sell stuff for $2,500.000 or whatever, I guess I'm MUCH less qualified for an opinion....

But it seems that a flat base on a router would be handy, possibly even something you could expect on an expensive router, but why is the discussion here? shouldn't it be going on between the customer and the dealer or Festool?

Seems like a good first step would be to contact Festool or your dealer and tell them your router's got a problem and would they care to fix it? Since the router just came out it's got to be under warranty.

Let us know what kind of response you got from Festool, because if it's not flat no amount of expert advice (even if it's from experts on expensive equipment sales) is going to make it flat, but a new base from Festool probably will.

 

[cneville101]

Well there is another country heard from... still no actual problem.  He has a flat base.  It is just not perfect.  But none of us knows if that even matters when cutting wood, because none of us has heard or seen that discussed by the original poster.

Again - thanks for getting personal and adding your two cents... you people really are difficult to get along with.  You obviously like to create theoretical problems (where they apparently don't exist) and complain amongst yourselves about how you deserve perfect products. 

I've got a couple of mole hills in my backyard... I was wondering if one of you guys could come over and install a ski lift.  We can all enjoy the mountains you are so good at creating.

Still waiting to hear what kind of actual problem this unflat base created.  Tick tock...

Chris