OF2200: Curved Base

[Brice Burrell]

Devil's in the details gentlemen.

........Hand pressure on the ruler did not push the plate down (check the blood in my fingernail - I was pushing firmly). During light use that plate would rock and leave a waved finish. This would not be acceptable in a $100 router, let alone this one.........

Chris, Groggy's comments here lead me to believe he did try it and it did produce flawed results. I could be misinterpreting his comments. Either way I agree with Nick, yes you heard me right  ;D, a distorted base isn't going to work for precise jobs.

......It has now been a few months and no reply from Festool despite occasional contact. I see this as a fundamental flaw and would be interested in others thoughts. Does anyone own one that would be willing to check and comment?

Steve, in Groggy's first post, quoted here, he did contact Festool with no reply.

 

[Groggy]

First, please respect the intent of the thread which is to discuss whether a flat base should be considered fundamental, or its relative merit. I did not start this as a continuation of the other forum discussion.

1mm is not a billionth of an inch or a wavelength of light, the problem is easily measurable and a ruler is pictured to help you. I also stated it varied from 1 to 1.5mm on various bases. The one pictured is representative but not the worst of those checked. If you don't understand metric it represents about .06 of an inch.

What I think you are missing is the fact that a single pass may not be detectable but mating two edges together IS a serious problem. Rout a kitchen bench top join and try telling the customer an imperfect edge is acceptable. As mentioned, marquetry and inlay work will show errors too.

Now, did I cut wood, no. I think you should consider why you even ask the question because I now expect a response of "Aha, so there is no problem!" The answer to this goes back to the purpose of the thread. I personally see this as a fundamental flaw and wanted to discuss it. The DEALER agreed and was more than a little embarrassed.

The "no problem until failure" approach doesn't work for me, I am in aviation and take a more reserved approach.

Please do not call it a flat base, you are ignoring the evidence - it is very clearly NOT flat.

For those who are trying to make sense of this thread now, I suggest that if you buy a tool, no matter what the brand or cost, do some simple checks. Flat faces and surfaces are fundamental to fine woodworking (IMHO).

 

[Steven in Iowa]

In following this thread and after seeing the photos, and having worked in a machine shop that does stuff for the space shuttles, aircraft, etc. I wonder if Festool is punching these bases out on a punch press and therefore getting a slight material separation!  Just a comment, nothing more.

 

[Brice Burrell]

In following this thread and after seeing the photos, and having worked in a machine shop that does stuff for the space shuttles, aircraft, etc. I wonder if Festool is punching these bases out on a punch press and therefore getting a slight material separation!  Just a comment, nothing more.

Now this is some great insight, thanks for posting. This is one possible explanation.

 

[Groggy]

...I wonder if Festool is punching these bases out on a punch press and therefore getting a slight material separation!  Just a comment, nothing more.

Steven, this was my impression (pardon the pun). I suspected a dimple caused by the removal of a punch cutter but decided how it gets there is Festool's problem, the fact it IS there is the buyer/users problem.

 

[Dave Ronyak]

In following this thread and after seeing the photos, and having worked in a machine shop that does stuff for the space shuttles, aircraft, etc. I wonder if Festool is punching these bases out on a punch press and therefore getting a slight material separation!  Just a comment, nothing more.

Now this is some great insight, thanks for posting. This is one possible explanation.

Is it possible the base became distorted due to some bump during shipment?  I don't know how Festool packages the OF 2200, but many boxed products delivered to me by USPS, UPS, FedEx or DHL show evidence of rough handling, and some have visible damage to the products within.  If the router base was not supported fully across its flat bottom surface, as in the manner the OF 1400 is supported in its Systainer, and the Systainer was dropped with its bottom side down say a few feet onto concrete, it might be possible to distort the base due to the "hammering" effect, i.e. the inertia due to the weight and momenum of the motor above the base.

Dave R.

 

[Groggy]

Back to basics. My experience with routers is that they will amplify any error and, when mating surfaces, the error is doubled unless both are cut in the same pass. Worse, if you lean to the right on commencement of a sliding dovetail and lean to the left on completion you will have an uneven cut.

I no longer have access to the router in question to do a test. However, if anyone doubts that the difference of 1mm would cause a problem, and honestly wants to see it then I suggest that a piece of tape be placed around the centre of your router base and you rock the router as you take a cut. I expect the error would be most evident on melamine or laminates with light surfaces and darker substrata. The thicker the material cut the greater the error will be.

Using the picture, the router base is roughly 200mm in diameter. The width of the phenolic section is about 50mm, there is a further 50mm from the edge of the phenolic to true centre. Assuming a router bit of 50mm protrusion and working from an extended centre line for convenience and the start of the inner phenolic as the fulcrum point.

To simulate this, cut a card to 100mm x 50mm. Draw an outline around it in pencil. Pivot the card from the centre (50mm in) and lower one edge 1mm. Visually check how far out the top corner has moved. Now double that to allow for rocking on both sides of the router. You now have about 2mm, or roughly 1/12". For a non-mating edge this will be visible. For jointed edges it will be highly visible. Movement like this on a profile cutter will be highly visible.

As a really rough guide, the letter ->  k  

 

[Groggy]

Is it possible the base became distorted due to some bump during shipment? 

Dave, no, as I said earlier in post #1, we tried a few routers and multiple bases.

 

[nickao]

As to you using a band saw for inlay, you are talking about a totally different technique where you are NOT using the same template for both the positive and negative pieces. The inlay technique I am referring to would be effected by an imperfect base and actually any tip of the router at all or even a worn snap off bushing of less then .25 mm wear makes a different using the technique. The reason I have to buy new inlay bushings every few months.

Nickao

 

[Per Swenson]

Hi all,

Very temporary post because this is is very important.

I also have a 2200 for review, old geezer Bob just made me aware of this situation.

I checked each of the bases in my base kit. None were precisely flat.

And when I say precise let me define that as extremely.

Then I snapped them into the router. Checked with the straight edge.

Fine. That is not to say that the ones you have are not screwed up.

I am saying, so we are clear,that mine are flat when snapped into the router base.

Concerning the no-reply from Festool. You called them, 800-554-8741. correct?

Per

Per

 

[nickao]

Hi Per,

I was wondering if you thought a curved or cupped base, say of 1mm, could make a difference in any of your work or any other work you could think of.

Nick

 

[Brice Burrell]

Hi Per,

I was wondering if you thought a curved or cupped base, say of 1mm, could make a difference in any of your work or any other work you could think of.

Nick

Nick, I can't reply for Per but, I can't imagine there is any real debate that a 1 mm distortion in a router's base can't cause imperfections to the work piece. We know it can and as Groggy pointed out, if the router is used where the entire base is riding on the work surface this error can be doubled. 

I'd like to hear from Groggy first, but, I think Per may have come up with a key piece of missing information. This is why we have discussions about the problems folks. Sometimes people make assumptions that a tool is working correctly and then come here and find the missing piece of info that makes all the difference.

Per, I think Groggy is may be in the UK.

 

[nickao]

I guess only cneville actually disputes this small curvature can make a difference, but I suspect he may be referring to apples and me oranges, the reason I changed my previous post to reflect that. I think if I was working on a deck just trimming off deck boards the curvature may not be an issue or not one worth worrying about.

But when making two mating pieces or relying on one template for a pos and neg image the curvature is going to make a huge difference.

 

[cneville101]

I guess only cneville actually disputes this small curvature can make a difference, but I suspect he may be referring to apples and me oranges, the reason I changed my previous post to reflect that. I think if I was working on a deck just trimming off deck boards the curvature may not be an issue or not one worth worrying about.

But when making two mating pieces or relying on one template for a pos and neg image the curvature is going to make a huge difference.

I don't dispute that a 1mm problem will be noticeable and I don't dispute that we should worry about a tool that causes otherwise good technique to produce an error of 1mm or greater... that would be unacceptable.

What I question is whether THIS particular "problem" actually translates into an error on the wood or to the cut.

As Per has noted... his base has a slight defect that goes away when mounted to the router.  Therefore, I suspect that were he to cut wood with that router, he would not have a problem.

THAT is exactly what I have been advocating... stop measuring "defects" for the sake of measuring defects and see if the damn tool produces acceptable results.  Why is this such a outrageous expectation?  Everyone is wringing their hands over this problem, which may very well NOT be a problem - which we all would know definitively if Groggy had actually cut wood with the router.

Chris

 

[nickao]

cneville101 I do see your point.

 

[Woodenfish]

What I question is whether THIS particular "problem" actually translates into an error on the wood or to the cut.

As Per has noted... his base has a slight defect that goes away when mounted to the router.  Therefore, I suspect that were he to cut wood with that router, he would not have a problem.

THAT is exactly what I have been advocating... stop measuring "defects" for the sake of measuring defects and see if the damn tool produces acceptable results.  Why is this such a outrageous expectation?  Everyone is wringing their hands over this problem, which may very well NOT be a problem - which we all would know definitively if Groggy had actually cut wood with the router.

Chris

I agree, but that's not how you play Corporate Gotcha?

 

[Groggy]

Then I snapped them into the router. Checked with the straight edge.

Fine.

Per, thank you for doing the check. When the plates were checked it was done both on the router and off.

 

[Per Swenson]

Ok

Then there is a problem, lets solve it.

Old geezer Bob, you might know him, He is my Father.

Has been at that router base with a digital mike. He is that way, I am not.

I am a "use the tool"and get the job done type of fella. Sounds crude but I get paid.

What i am going to do is ask him to respond so I can back on sabbatical.

Kay?

Per

 

[Groggy]

Chris, I did not cut wood with it for the same reason I do not drive my car when I can see it has a flat tyre, the outcome will be suboptimal. I know this because routing 101 shows you that even the slightest movement is visible in the cut. You may drive on flat tyres, I don't, which is why I asked for "others thoughts", because in most things to do with woodwork opinions vary.

Regarding actually cutting timber I have already said in another post I no longer have access to that router and therefore cannot do so.

You have given your opinion, thank you, others are giving theirs. The problems start where some decide theirs is the only possible correct opinion, I am not going there as I am rarely correct, my wife tells me this regularly. For those who share the same opinion as I then they will get something from this thread. For those like yourself who do not think it is a problem that is fine too.

I WOULD be interested in the opinions of those who use routers - would YOU use the base pictured for fine woodworking, knowing it was not flat by the amount stated?

 

[Groggy]

Per, appreciate the effort, but it is not the same router so I'm not sure what can be solved here?