OF2200: Curved Base

[Bob Swenson]

Groggy, so you really are from Britain and you have reached all the way over here to
dump a problem on us. How serious is this problem. Is it curable or do we throw this great
router to the wolves. First let me ask you why you reached all the way over here to criticize the 2200
Did you tell my limey buddy Dirty deeds about it.
Yes Per is talking about the same router.
He ran out on a hot date ond told me to to respond to your post.
I think that the fingers may be more sensitive than any other measurement.
I can feel the deference between one or two coffee filters and I suspect most others can do the same.
Running my finger across the base I detect a ridge in the center hole. This may be caused by stamping
the base. This is easily correctable. Viewing the reflection of two parallel lines can reveal any distortion
in the base. Some distortion may be caused from  over torquing the attachment screws.
The possible cure if there is a problem, Relieve the ridge, make the base thicker.
Groggy, Your not over there, your just British.
Tally Ho
Bob

 

[Groggy]

Bob, I am not from Britain, I am from Australia, I guess we can be the same people divided by a common language at times.

Why did I bring the problem here? Well, I had thought this the best place to discuss it as it is the only Festool specific forum I have membership of, and it does not say "USA Festool Owner's Group". Having lived in the US for a number of years, and knowing you to be a generally agreeable lot, I thought I would be welcome to comment. The only difference between our routers is the voltage, which doesn't impact this issue at all, so the greater user base would provide a better comparison.

As for "dumping a problem", I had hoped to raise awareness and see if it extended further than the two routers I looked at. I have no idea who "Dirty Deeds" is or what you are on about. Do you think I am a new member created to stir up trouble? No, there are other members here who know me by the same name in other forums. There may even be some who recognise my user name from Usenet days. My posting history is an open book and I don't engage in shyte-stirring just for the fun of it.

My comment to Pers about it not being the same router was simply that the router I looked at had a pronounced bow in it. The router he has may not be bowed, like Tom's was not bowed, so a check would be unlikely to solve the issue. I did not suggest it was a different brand or model.

I'm not interested in pursuing this further here. There is sufficient comment here to register the issue. There is even a solution for those who may come across a bowed base - just knock it flat with a hammer. Just maybe though, someone who has been getting some irregular cuts may have a look and find it comes from an issue with a base.

 

[cneville101]

Chris, I did not cut wood with it for the same reason I do not drive my car when I can see it has a flat tyre, the outcome will be suboptimal. I know this because routing 101 shows you that even the slightest movement is visible in the cut. You may drive on flat tyres, I don't, which is why I asked for "others thoughts", because in most things to do with woodwork opinions vary.

Regarding actually cutting timber I have already said in another post I no longer have access to that router and therefore cannot do so.

You have given your opinion, thank you, others are giving theirs. The problems start where some decide theirs is the only possible correct opinion, I am not going there as I am rarely correct, my wife tells me this regularly. For those who share the same opinion as I then they will get something from this thread. For those like yourself who do not think it is a problem that is fine too.

I WOULD be interested in the opinions of those who use routers - would YOU use the base pictured for fine woodworking, knowing it was not flat by the amount stated?

Groggy - nice analogy... but not quite correct.  The appropriate analogy would be that you have a nail in your tire or a slice in the tread.  That is certainly sub-optimal, but I wouldn't stop driving the car and run out to buy a new tire until I knew for sure that the tire couldn't hold air.

Just about every tool I own...  for that matter, just about every item I own has spec or a quality control standard that it has to meet in order to pass final inspection and be sold.  What is the spec for the router base?  

Can we agree that it is reasonable to expect a product to meet it's manufacturers specifications.  If it does not, then you have every right to return it and expect a replacement that meets specs.

Chris

 

[Groggy]

Chris, regarding the analogy, my point was simply that if a problem is that obvious there is no point in testing it. Since the dealer did not have a base that was flat it would have been unfair to show the results of cuts from what I considered a defective router. It would not have been representative of the routers generally and therefore would have done nothing to assist readers of the review to form an informed and fair opinion. Much better to await comment from the manufacturer, then test a working model. Then the full review can be presented along with a brief mention that the base has issue 'X' and report what had been done to correct it. Instead, no response was provided after a number of months and occasional contact. In the mean time the routers are being sold. What should I have done - ignore it, or try to raise awareness in case it was a broader issue?

Just about every tool I own...  for that matter, just about every item I own has spec or a quality control standard that it has to meet in order to pass final inspection and be sold.  What is the spec for the router base?  

Limited specifications are readily available, tolerances are not. I looked at a few Festool sales sites (Europe, Australia and USA) and could not find any specified tolerance for the base; I did find repeated references to 'precision'. Before the review attempt I gathered information from various sources so I could review it against the manufacturer's claims. In my view, this base did not meet the claim to precision throughout the advertising and brochures.

Can we agree that it is reasonable to expect a product to meet it's manufacturers specifications.  If it does not, then you have every right to return it and expect a replacement that meets specs.

As above, the 'specification' is not available to the buying public and I am not sure it should be. However, they do state nearly everywhere "quality and precision". I agree with these, I was very impressed with the features and functions of this router. The level of detail and functional utility is amazing - I would love to own one (a flat one ). I expect that Festool will replace the bases that were not flat, I have no reason to doubt that whatsoever, their service is first class from what I have seen.

The check I performed was a simple and basic check that every router manufacturer should be able to meet. We are talking millimeters here, not angstroms, and I do not think I am holding Festool to a higher standard than anyone else. It is the fact that the base failed to meet a minimum standard of expectation that I was so surprised. My Bosch, Makita and Triton router bases are all dead flat, it is not unreasonable to expect that a router worth more than all of them combined would be flat, surely. It also does not accord with the "quality and precision" expectation the user is led to expect.

I will repeat again, because it has been ignored or missed, the dealer agreed with me and was also surprised and very concerned; it was not just my observation.

 

[Bob Swenson]

The content of this post has been deleted by the Forum Administrator

 

[Bob Swenson]

After careful reexamination I observed a ridge on the outside of the base.
A strait edge placed across the bottom reveals a gap between the  outer
edge, the center hole and the opposite edge. This is most likely caused by the die cut
machine that pounds these out. All easily correctable.
Perhaps Festool could chamfer the edge by about 1/32"  thus correcting the problem.
If you don't have a 2200 please don't criticize this great tool.
Bob   

 

[Per Swenson]

This has caused some concern around here, that would be the Swenson household.

So, I took the liberty of contacting Rick Christopherson for his input.

As Follows, "text and photos by Rick Christopherson"

I have seen the discussion, and while it might cause some people to be concerned, it is not really an issue from what I have seen. There is a simple test that each user could do to find out if they have a real problem or just a perceived problem.

Install the baseplate on the router, place the router on a flat surface, such as a tablesaw, and check for a gap at the outer edges. If no gap exists, then it is just a perceived problem and not a real problem. Furthermore, they could check the actual machined base of the router itself. This is afterall, the controlling surface of the router.[attachimg=#]

The reason why the phonelic plates have a crown in the center is because this is the area where the router will register its depth (right next to the bit) and you do not want to have this area of the base concave for any reason. If it were, then you would have an opportunity for a false registration height from the outer periphery. You will also notice that the area of crowning coincides with the portion of the phonelic base that is not in contact with the metal retaining plate. The extension base with the solid aluminum plate under the phonelic plate is, and should be, dead flat.
[attachimg=#]

Most importantly, just because you can see daylight, does not mean it is even an appreciable gap. In the picture below, I am holding the straightedge at the far side of the router and not placing any downward pressure to the ruler. The resulting gap on the right-hand side is really 2-times the actual crown. Even still, it is only a few thousandths of an inch![attachimg=#]

When a slight pressure is applied to the ruler, the gap goes away. As I said to another woodworker just yesterday, when you start checking things down to this level of precision, you need to account for all other aspects that you don't normally think of.
[attachimg=#]

 

[CharlesWilson]

Per,

I noticed the same thing on my MFK 700 phenolic plate. I guess there is a good reason for it. Thanks for explaining.

Charles

 

[Groggy]

Per, thank you for following up on this, thanks also to Rick Christopherson for his words and time. I agree fully with what you have both said, especially when talking only a few thousandths of an inch.

The base of the router itself was checked and found to be dead flat on both routers, the issue shown was with the base plates, whether fitted or not.

In a number of previous posts I have stated 1mm to 1.5mm (this is 0.059 of an inch or 59 thou). I tend to think of "a few thou" as being less than 1/64" (0.015 approx) or less. What I have repeatedly described is 1.5mm i.e. four times 1/64", at 1/16". Had it been a few thou it would not have bothered me, or even caught my attention.

Anyway, Rick has provided a good and practical guide for anyone who wants to check theirs, thank you again for taking the time to look at this.

 

[Dan Clermont]

Great pics Per and thanks for taking the time.

I remember playing around with handplanes on a granite reference plate and using feeler guages to measure the concave / convex sole only to find out that with slight downward pressure you could easily deflect the sole enough to mirror the reference plate. Looks to be the same with the OF2200 in the pics.

Dan Clermont

 

[petiegolfer]

Just a thought....and nothing to do with curved bases....

those who have this machine...

do you think that the router could be hung on a router table insert/lift by the snap in attachment?

IE could the aluminium plate be purchased as spare and then attached to the insert/lift and then be the method that you can mount and dismount the router for hand use? Is it strong enough to hold the 17lb router under load?

Would a secondary fastner be required just to make things ultra secure?

Piers

 

[tbellemare]

I wouldn't want this bad boy running and hanging by something that was designed to be underneath the router.

In the typical usage, the fasteners on the base are meant to secure something that the router sits on and the weight of the router is supported by the base casting.

If you hang it upside-down by the snap fastener, you are putting it in tension. I doubt that it was designed to hold the weight of the router.

It looks like you could use that as a way to get your alignment and then use the two threaded holes (that thread into the cast base) to hold the weight...

Tom

 

[petiegolfer]

Cool...thanks for that.

Kind of what I have been thinking....probably not strong enough to hold the router but certainly an easy method of alingment.

Piers

 

[The Beryl Bloke]

Greetings everyone,

I have just bought an OF2200 and have looked at the base and taken some measurements. I have only the standard base and this is an Australian delivered router.

With the router upside down the inside edge of centre hole in the phenolic base was higher than the edge of the phenolic by a measured 0.1 to 0.2 mm (25.4mm to the inch) Measured with a steel rule and vernier calipers of 0.02mm resolution.

The phenolic base is a softish flexible material (compared to the router's cast alloy base)  The router weighs a not insubstantial 7.8 kG.

So...

I stood the router right way up on a laminex counter top. I believe this made a difference.

I lack the necessary measuring tools (and experience!) to be able to measure the difference this made.

However close observation of the edges of the phenolic base at the centre of the router and at the outside edges leads me to believe that the weight of the router alone reduced the base uneveness by about 50%

In use I would expect that there would be some additional downward pressure from whoever is holding the router flattening the base a little further. I cannot prove this expectation however.

I tried plunging the router to see if the extra pressure would make a difference. I could not see any but then it is difficult to plunge the router and closely observe whats happenning at table level.

With the router plunged I could induce some small rocking of the unit on the laminated surface. I am unable to say if this is due to the lack of flatness on the router base of the lack of flatness of the 20 year old laminate kitchen benchtop. Access to a Granite engineering plate could check this.

I doubt this slight bow in the phenolic base will effect the router when used in a CMS or router table. It would be bolted in place and not be able to rock around.

The other side of this is how much will the lack of flatness effect the accuracy of the cut?? The base is about 200mm (8 inches) across, half that (100mm or 4") in radius. With a 50mm (2 inch) straight bit and full plunge the bottom of the bit would be about 70mm out of the router base. Allowing the full .2mm off perfect flatness would give me 70/100 of .2mm or 0.14mm worst case at the bottom of the routed edge.

In reality I am very unlikely to ever use full depth of cut with a 50mm long bit so my waviness or lack of square will be less than this. I have a working tolerance of 0.1mm at the moment.

Thus for my use this router will be fine.

Disclaimers

1. Groggy's router may have had more of an issue than mine. Routers may vary. If you intend to buy one check the thing over first.

2. If your working tolerances are less than mine then you should do your own risk assessment.

3. This is a mother of a router! My OF2200 will likely spend most of it's life in the CMS unit.

4. I was metricated in the seventies and remember imperial units well but can't work in them much beyond whole numbers. If that gives you a problem, don't bother to tell me about it! ;D

And lastly ...

Groggy.....Good to see another Aussie here! Keep the flag flying fella.

Cheers

The Beryl Bloke

Addendum - The above runout of 0.14mm refers to edge routing. A deep narrow trench routed freehand may have double this runout - 0.28mm The wider the trench the less runout.

 

[Brice Burrell]

Greetings everyone,

I have just bought an OF2200 and have looked at the base and taken some measurements. I have only the standard base and this is an Australian delivered router.

With the router upside down the inside edge of centre hole in the phenolic base was higher than the edge of the phenolic by a measured 0.1 to 0.2 mm (25.4mm to the inch) Measured with a steel rule and vernier calipers of 0.02mm resolution.............

Beryl Bloke, welcome to the FOG. If the numbers you posted are correct then I don't see this as a problem (I guess that is your point??). The base is off by 0.1 - 0.2 mm, then it is reduced by half when the router's weight is on the base, is that right? For those of you that are keeping score at home that is around .005" - .0025" or 1/256" - 1/512". What do you do that you have a working tolerance of 0.1 mm? It can't be woodworking. Thanks for taking the time post, I believe you have added some useful info to this thread.

 

[The Beryl Bloke]

Hi Brice,

Thank you for the welcome and converting my measurements to imperial.

You have summarised my comments pretty well

My point is that ...

If I understand the problem correctly

If I have measured the "taper"on the base of my router correctly

If I have done my calculations correctly

Then for my purposes, any waviness of cut from this particular router is likely to be within my tolerance levels.

I cannot speak of other routers as I do not have access to them to take measurements. My router may be atypical.

Likewise I cannot speak of the routers Groggy looked at. They maybe typical!

Until a few other people weigh in with some measurements the issue is still live.

Please also note that I could not actually measure the "flatenning" of the base when the router was stood on it. There is some distortion of the phenolic base on my router that causes the phenol to sit up marginally from the alloy base at one edge i.e. barely visible gap between the phenol and the alloy. When I sit the router on it's base this gap reduces by an amount I estimate to be about 50%. Looking into the centre of the router base there is likewise an almost impercetible flattenning of the phenol as weight goes on. Anyone wishing to try this can use the 3 points on the bottom of the acrylic dust shroud for reference. Good lighting and eyes/glasses are required to see this.

I think that the lack of absolute flatness in the phenol has to do with the screws holding it to the base, as a previous poster mentioned.

I would like my expensive router base flat to within 0.02mm (i.e. the limits of my measuring equipment). It is slightly disappointing  to find that it is not. I do think Festool should examine this. This is not a $50 router. Conversely the inaccuracy may not be noticeble in general use.

I do work with wood though not for a living. Previous attempts at furniture construction have left me with some spectacular agricultural examples and the realisation that, as per Murphy's Law, cutting inaccuracies build in awkward directions. Thus if my first operation is .1mm out and the second one is .1mm, by the time I get to operation seven, I have a lot of sanding to do!

Cheers

The Beryl Bloke