Ohhhhh Noooooo I drank the kool-aid...

[UCLA Fan]

A mir 6 months ago I was a blissful man. Confident in my belief that "Festools were for money wasting fools" Many a time I stood at my pulpit (my local Rockler) and spouted off on the dangers of buying gimmicks "I do woodworking for a living and I don't waste money on toys" I even talked a few people out of their Festool purchases. I would rant on and on "yes the TS is a nice saw but i can do the exact same thing with a $40 straight edge and my Hitachi" or "it's vacuum cleaner not a dust collector who are they fooling and it cost what?????" .....

It started innocently enough, a quick stop by the Festool booth at the wood show (after all no one was looking and it was "research") ... The next day I was lurking around the same booth, big hat and dark sunglasses in place. The man said "have you ever tried the TS55?" my reply "who me?... no I have a circular saw" ... "here give it a try" ..... OH OH I was in trouble... the smoothness, the ease of setting the guide rail, the lack of dust, the feel in my hands, I started to caress the handles, cut after cut, deeper and deeper I fell....  "SIR YOU HAVE TO LET SOMEONE ELSE TRY IT" I was snapped back to reality as the TS55 was ripped from my hands and I was abruptly pushed to the side. It was only a moment - we were two strangers on a train love at first sight, then gone - swept away by the crowd. Oh I tried to forget I drowned myself in circular saws but the next morning I was always left with an incredible emptiness. At every spare moment I was on the internet indulging the dark side... brochures... galleries and yes even forums and chat rooms. I wanted to confess my sins "It just happened... it was an accident... it was only one time... it will NEVER happen again... No the TS is nothing like you I don't even remember it" and so it continued - my agony in hiding my longing. Then came that fateful day... I was walking into my local Rockler for some miscellaneous supplies and I was stopped dead in my tracks, the Rockler employee said "Oh you haven't seen our new Festool display" My heart started to pound. I stumbled a few words "yeah... well... what ever... over priced.... eh..... yeah" I casually walked by the display area a few times lest I be discovered for my wayward lust... i walked up to the display and oh man there it is the TS55... I look around repeatedly to make sure no one was looking... Then I picked it up and ohhhhhhh this is a good as I remember...  my heart raced as I held the TS in my hands... There was no denying anymore I had to have it. I walked away with the TS55 and and of course the "dust collector" Of course i promised myself that would be my only trip to the Festool Kool-Aid stand.

Back to Current times.... and I am a genuine Festool Kool-aid Drinker

I am now the proud owner of many a Festool - TS55, various length rails, ct22, domino, and (time for a quick glout here) bought a 2 month old Rotex 150 for $250 last week and brand new never used 1010 router for $250 yesterday  ;D

 

[JJ Wavra]

I am glad that you let yourself try the tools.  It always gets me when someone says something is too expensive or dumb without trying it first.  I have a music degree, clarinet&sax, well let me tell clarinet players are gear nuts. I always tried to keep an open and objective mind to all that is/was offered when I was playing and do so now with woodworking.  Just because a product does not deem itself worthy of a specific price at one time it may be worth it at another time. 

These tools may be expensive but I quickly forget what they cost when I use them.  This justifies to me sometimes waiting three months or longer to buy a tool.  Hopefully they will last a long time and enable me to produce what I envision not what my tools allow me to do.

JJ

 

[UCLA Fan]

I think it all comes down to perceived value. It is often hard to see the value in one tool over the other. For the most part I still agree with the phrase "you are buying holes - not a drill" and many an excellent project has been built in this world with nothing more then a few hand tools.

In all seriousness, I do find many Festool's too be be head and shoulders above all other current tools. The TS55 with rail for example is a great tool. It speeds up my work versus my old straight edge and Hitachi circular saw. Nothing compares for breaking down sheet goods fast and precise. So in this case it helps me make MORE profit in my work    The one down side to Festool's is "ability to fly built into every tool" that is they are the first to fly off  the jobsite if you put them down for even one moment  :-[  I hope Festool will remove this feature from their future products, come on Festool it really is a silly function"flying tools" give me a break already  ;D

Now don't get me wrong sometimes I do buy tools just because I want them. It is not always about work and profit. It is similar to buying a hand plane - a Stanley contractors plane once tuned can leave just as smooth a surface as a Lie-Nielsen plane. But the quality machining and feel in the hand brings pride and pleasure to the experience.

I think it is a matter of personal taste and work style. IMHO a miter saw is a miter saw and my Makita 10" SCMS does a great job and at a price point that is great for ME. Some will say that at $500 it is  a waste and why not just buy a crapsmen  after all it is just a crosscut. Then there are many here who will jump all over me regarding the Festool SCMS "it is the best... it is great.. etc"  So each of us has their own needs, wants, desires. When it comes to tools there are many wrong decisions but there are also many right solutions.

I recently bought the Festool planer with the rustic undulating head to create a "hand tooled" effect. I didn't care for the effect on the furniture I was building and I already own a Bosch installers kit so back it went -  no questions - no problems - no hassle. This left me even more impressed and I will try other Festools as needed.  I hope more people will take advantage of the 30 day trial offer and see if the tool is really better for your application.

Frank

 

[nickao]

I totally agree UCLA fan.

But why does everyone think a 30 day return policy is so great. I just do not get it. Porter Cable, Dewalt and others have a 90 DAY no question return policy. And many others also like Ridgid which has a 90 day and a 3 year warranty too. Almost every company has gone or is going to  the 90 day satisfaction guarantee in the near future.

And with  craftsman(whose tools are  much better than in the past) though they do not say it  have a great return policy. I have gone to Sears and bitched and returned things 6 months later used and abused.

I just do not think 30 days should be considered a big deal, it's not at all. It does not match up to other tool manufacturers. Every other tool manufacturer I can think of has at least a 30 day satisfaction guarantee.

It's time for Festool to match up and go to the 90 day satisfaction return policy. They cost the most and bill themselves as the best it should be no problem for them to implement it.

 

[UCLA Fan]

Well I agree it would be nice to expand to 90 as others have BUT...

When I have tried to return other tools to the place of purchase it is always a hassle. But you "USED it...." I can get it done but major hassle every time. The only time it is not a problem is if I hardly opened the box otherwise it is a hassle. So I was merely stating that I really appreciate the like of trouble with the festool returns. Has anyone else had any trouble with there returns?

Frank

 

[Neill]

I totally agree UCLA fan.

But why does everyone think a 30 day return policy is so great. I just do not get it. Porter Cable, Dewalt and others have a 90 DAY no question return policy. And many others also like Ridgid which has a 90 day and a 3 year warranty too. Almost every company has gone or is going to  the 90 day satisfaction guarantee in the near future.

And with  craftsman(whose tools are  much better than in the past) though they do not say it  have a great return policy. I have gone to Sears and bitched and returned things 6 months later used and abused.

I just do not think 30 days should be considered a big deal, it's not at all. It does not match up to other tool manufacturers. Every other tool manufacturer I can think of has at least a 30 day satisfaction guarantee.

It's time for Festool to match up and go to the 90 day satisfaction return policy. They cost the most and bill themselves as the best it should be no problem for them to implement it.

Nick -

As any auto manufacturer or dealer can tell you, if cars are not selling or if you offer an inferior product, one way to stimulate sales is to provide your buyers the comfort of an extended warranty and other gimmicks.  Why do you get a lifetime warranty or a 100,000 mile warranty on some vehicles but not on others?

My feeling is that (1) Festool does not have to offer long term return policies because their products are superior and (2) that is all the incentive they need.  Besides, I think that if any product does break down or if you are dissatisfied with it, it happens in the first few days or weeks.

In addition we can all take comfort in knowing that Festool products are made in Germany where the labor force, manufacturing facilities and quality control are exceptional.  So many manufacturers have moved their operations to China and other countries where these traits are inferior.  I appreciate knowing that the parts of a plunge saw or router that could potentially cause me permanent bodily harm are made in a clean, respectable environment rather than in some hole in the wall in a backwoods town whose name I cannot pronounce.

I am all in favor of reasonable pricing but I do not want to sacrifice the quality of the product I buy, my end product and especially my personal safety.

Neill

 

[Forrest Anderson]

But why does everyone think a 30 day return policy is so great. I just do not get it.

Since you asked, I think it's great because we in the UK don't get it! We just get the 1+2 warranty, with no mention of the additional "...30 day money back guarantee. If you are not completely satisfied...".

In fact, I can't find any country, apart from the USA, which has this guarantee, not even Germany.

Are there any "rest of the world" members out there who have seen this advertised in their country?

Forrest

 

[honeydoman]

and here I thought that you meant   UCLA FAN  =  Uour Cuts Look Awesome  Festool  Always  Now ! : ;D

glad you finally got the saw.  I also bought the planer and the undelating head and also returned it.  I think 30 days is fine for a refund on a tool  you should be able to tell if you like it within a few days, usually.

be thankful tool companies have this offer!

now go drink some more kool-aid and get some more festools to add to your collection.

 

[nickao]

Come on honeydokreg, it took three and and half weeks until the Kapex bound up on me, no way is three days enough to know if you like a tool, IMHO. Didn't you have big problems with the kapex after the first 3 days yourself?

UCLA Fan - I have never had a problem returning a used porter cable or Bosch tool used or not. If they even question it you are going to the wrong retailer. These are MANUFACTURER guaranteed and the retailer can not say no!

Neill - Porter Cable and Bosch items are not inferior or bad and the 90 day was not implemented to increase sales in the first place, but to assure clients the tools were good, not the other way around. Actually, the PC and Bosch companies rarely ever have returns. I have only returned one PC and one Bosch tool in all the years I have been using tools. But I have returned 3 kapex and mft and two CT 33 so I do not think your theory holds water about the German work force or all tools made in Germany to be the best at all. Of late the German tools have gotten worse if anything!

Americans make great products too!

 

[UCLA Fan]

Well Nickao,

I am going to the wrong retailers for sure, but being the cheap bast@#% that I am I tend to shop price over service (hmmmm guess I need to rethink that as well)

I too agree with you that there are many fine tool companies out there and I too have seldom needed to return a tool for Quality of workmanship. My returns are usually for a design issue/decision. I have tools from Makita (gr8 SCMS, fantastic lithium cordless tools); Bosch (ts, router kit, sanders etc. etc - love them) Dewalt (13"  planer ) and so on and son on. IMHO workers are workers and you will find good and bad from every company in terms of shipping a faulty product from time to time. We all seem to bang on Asian tooling... but I must say most of it is VERY good and an excellent price point. I have a Jet 3hp TS that I love and it was made in Asia.  Perhaps we need to be less "Nationalistic" and hold all companies to high standards regardless of the location of manufacturing? Just a thought

Frank

 

[Frans]

But why does everyone think a 30 day return policy is so great. I just do not get it.

Since you asked, I think it's great because we in the UK don't get it! We just get the 1+2 warranty, with no mention of the additional "...30 day money back guarantee. If you are not completely satisfied...".

In fact, I can't find any country, apart from the USA, which has this guarantee, not even Germany.

Are there any "rest of the world" members out there who have seen this advertised in their country?

Forrest

In Germany and the Netherlands, you get the 30 day return policy when you are a Tools for Profit member, which you can sign up for for free.

Frans

 

[Forrest Anderson]

In fact, I can't find any country, apart from the USA, which has this guarantee, not even Germany.

Are there any "rest of the world" members out there who have seen this advertised in their country?

In Germany and the Netherlands, you get the 30 day return policy when you are a Tools for Profit member, which you can sign up for for free.

Thanks for the feedback, Frans.

Forrest

 

[honeydoman]

Well Nickao,

I am going to the wrong retailers for sure, but being the cheap bast@#% that I am I tend to shop price over service (hmmmm guess I need to rethink that as well)

Frank

that comment alone is what drives us professionals crazy.  we go and give a good fair price to customers and show them why we are better for more money, but yet they go with lower bids due to price.  as we did not sell them on value of our service.

and then we get mad because some guy gets the job at a lower price, does not do it as well etc.  but yet lots of us shop price as you stated.

I usually shop for value not price,  the price is not a concern.  what the tool does is my concern.  can it do what it was designed for?  will it improve my work? will it save time? (suchas the guide rails system, the dust collection.  saves time cutting up sheet goods and clean up) so value is their.

As far as returning tools I have only had to return several dewalt tools due to falling apart and 1 bosch table saw had replaced years ago for something, don't remember.

but with festool 4 kapex, planer, and no my sys port I just bought my 2nd one, they are great by the way.  but this one the drawers just pull out, but they are replaceing it next week.

1 week was all I needed on the kapex to find problems.  about 3 days 3 of them the 1st or second day.

so lets settle on 60 days for returns would be great!!!!

 

[UCLA Fan]

that comment alone is what drives us professionals crazy.  we go and give a good fair price to customers and show them why we are better for more money, but yet they go with lower bids due to price.  as we did not sell them on value of our service.


Well Kreg,

I sort of see your point, it is hypocrisy to ask for top dollar for our work and then take the "low bid" ourselves. However, the analogy does not really fit here. One is a service that requires custom work, skill, artistry etc. The other is a product that is the same regardless of where I buy it. A Makita drill is the same drill wether I buy it at full price or get it on sale at the home center. Here in the States we are a capitalist group of folks - in a nut shell that means value is described as willing buyer and willing seller.

On the note of out bidding each other and they are not as good as you - all I can say is MAYBE. Maybe your price point is "worth it" in theory but if the customer is happy with it, even if it is crap by your standards, then it was a good value for them. In addition, some of us smaller professional woodworkers can be more competitive AND do better work... I recently won a bid on a custom GUNROOM. The other bidder was a large high end custom shop in Los Angeles and he wanted $1000 a linear foot for alder and alder plywood cabinetry ($23,000) I bid the job as all solid walnut shelving with hand distressed finish to match the decor of the barn it is in, my bid was $15,000. I won the bid not only on price but on the custom design.  So IMHO the high bidder is not ALWAYS the best and the low bidder is not necessarily the worst. The other guy has lots of overhead and many employees, as an owner/operator I can operate at a lower price point for high end work. On the other hand I can not compete in the middle / low market where Mass production allows for cheap labor and bulk purchase of materials.

Frank

 

[honeydoman]

frank I agree with you.  I am the same way, large cabinet shops have a higher price point due to overhead.  where people like us have low overhead and can do just about a great of a job, if not better sometimes and people do still recieve great value and we make a buck.

and yes a makita drill at hd for 200 is the same at joes tools for 250 etc.  sometimes the only difference is more customer service at joes than hd etc.

good luck on your job sounds like a fun project.  are you in the LA area?