On site dust extraction in the uk

[Muffdaddy]

Hello fog members
Iv just registered but have followed you guys for years.

Im a uk site chippy, covering all aspects of 1st and 2nd fix. Im graduly up dating my kit from makita to festool. Yes i get it now, festool is worth  every penny!
I spend half my time doing domestic and half commercial.

Today i had an argument with the health n safety man on a commercial site,  he took one look at my old makita extractor and decided i needed educating.
Now its already been on my mind to hook up a fessy extractor once there were some penies in the piggy, but not quite enough pennies yet.

Apparently now, due to CDM regulations all chippies need a class m extractor on site, no exceptions.
I polietly told him that i would NOT be dragging a big class m extractor around, up n down scaffold ladders. That i intended to purchase a festool midi class l, asap, fit it with a heppa filter, empty the bags often, and that would effectivly do the same job.
He told me that the Unit would not be  class m, so it would not count.
So i less polietly replied nor is the f☆☆king saw in the first place where the dust comes from...
Or the router, or the  chop saw. And what about all the plasterboard dust left every where, and that sparky chaseing out block work.?

So moving on, my dilemma  a midi or a ct26??
Now i know this has been discussed before, but its 2016 and appently the rules have changed, i do resect  safe n healthy issues on site, but do i have to lug a mobile joinery shop around every day...

Respect to anyone else  with a point of veiw on this matter.
Thanks.

 

[CO_JCD]

One of the main differences between Class M and the lesser Class L is the Class M has an audible indication when the suction drops and either the bag is full or the hose is partially blocked etc.

I have the CTM22 and would not look back - having the bag full indication is definitely worth it as otherwise the fact that the dust extraction is falling off would not be immediately noticeable.  Also this 100% avoids other potential issues where people have reported damaging the bag when manually checking whether it was full or not. This may just have been with the older CT series, however the issue is completely avoided with a Class M machine.

My advice, just get the Class M machine, it will meet the regs plus is a benefit in general use in any case.

John

 

[luke1984]

Hi muffdaddy welcome. I'm looking at upgrading my midi to a m class think I'm going to get a 26 because of size and weight once full. I started  an other topic asking 26 or 36 people have pointed me to the 26. Hope this helps luke

 

[Alan Mack]

Afaik the filtering specs of both the L and M units is the same. The only difference is the alarm add on to the M units. So dont see the need to add in a hepa filter as well. As for size, I have been using a 22 and just got my self a midi. Have left the 22 at home in workshop now, and midi comes to site. Much easier, going into houses and up stairs with a wee unit that functions just as well as the bigger unit. As for the regs, I havent come across this particular "rule" but would be looking it out and seeing what it says for myself rather than taking some H&s bods take on it. Totally agree about other trades, if only there were some more planex using plasterers about. They never seem to clean up, plaster dust everywhere...

 

[demographic]

I started a thread about this just recently, it contains a link to a HSE document and information that says that they will be looking to see carpenters using Class M extraction.
HERE
Its well worth reading through the full PDF but that's the way the trades are going and we can either get sorted now, or lose out on work.

Now obviously that's less of an issue when you are working outside but I recently forked out 670 quid for a CTM26 so I'm not going to be letting dry liners machine sand their joints next to me without a similar setup.

Can't have one rule for me and a far lesser rule for them.

 

[Alan Mack]

@Demo, that link doesnt seem to work
Edit; it is missing the "f" from the header

 

[Alan Mack]

Have had a read through of the pdf. Its a discussion paper from 2012. From what the criteria list between the categories, the midi is an M class apart from the air velocity alarm. It has manual air speed control, a means of removing dust from machine safely, and a separate filter protected from mechanical damage by nails etc.

I'm not going to upgrade. It would be a novelty to see most of the other trades and majority of joiners/carpenters actually use an extractor, let alone an M class machine.

 

[demographic]

Have had a read through of the pdf. Its a discussion paper from 2012. From what the criteria list between the categories, the midi is an M class apart from the air velocity alarm. It has manual air speed control, a means of removing dust from machine safely, and a separate filter protected from mechanical damage by nails etc.

I'm not going to upgrade. It would be a novelty to see most of the other trades and majority of joiners/carpenters actually use an extractor, let alone an M class machine.

I suspect the safety bods are not that bothered about the finer details of the classes and just want to see a big sticker on the machine that says Class M (or Class H)

As I didn't have any means of extraction upto the week before last I went for the model that I could afford and I considered would be allowed on site the longest, pointless spending three or more hundred quid if its obsolete for sitework in six months.

From the way I've heard it, Class L is on its way out in the UK, pretty much before people even started using on tool extraction routinely.

 

[Alan Mack]

If it ever comes to it, I guess I'll find myself a sticker with a big M on it!

 

[demographic]

If it ever comes to it, I guess I'll find myself a sticker with a big M on it!

Can't say I didn't think about that myself.

Currently its just a few sites (companies like Balfor Beatty and a few others) but its coming and I'm not losing out on a weeks work because of it, besides, I might as well have better air to breath anyway.

Of course they do the usual thing where they are absolutely draconian with the rules when you first go on site (when the site agents, gaffas and company safety bods have nowt better to do) then they don't give a toss later on when it looks like the building might not be completed on time but that's total commitment to double standards for you.

 

[Davej]

If it ever comes to it, I guess I'll find myself a sticker with a big M on it!

Can't say I didn't think about that myself.

Currently its just a few sites (companies like Balfor Beatty and a few others) but its coming and I'm not losing out on a weeks work because of it, besides, I might as well have better air to breath anyway.

Of course they do the usual thing where they are absolutely draconian with the rules when you first go on site (when the site agents, gaffas and company safety bods have nowt better to do) then they don't give a toss later on when it looks like the building might not be completed on time but that's total commitment to double standards for you.

So true , until the H&S bods are due near the end of the job , then when they've been its back to normal , dust everywhere. I was on site a while ago and a chippy was spewing dust everywhere from his chopsaw , the H & S guru was not impressed so he taped a plastic bag to the dust port " that's better " he was told.. All the dust blew out the front of the saw as the bag just filled with air . gotta love health and safety idiots.
Dave

 

[Bigchasbroon]

I've been working in Edinburgh airport on nights. I can't use my kapex with extractor without a hot works permit. Between the h&s and security you don't get much work done.

 

[demographic]

I've been working in Edinburgh airport on nights. I can't use my kapex with extractor without a hot works permit. Between the h&s and security you don't get much work done.

Hot works permit for a chopsaw?  That's a new one on me.
What are you cutting?

Proper HSE person asking for that or one or a company appointed ones, some of them have pretty spurious requirements and could do with a good shake.

 

[wrightwoodwork]

Sounds strange

 

[paulc75]

I'm sure you could look on ekat and order the M sticker to cover the one on a CTL

 

[Nigel]

Festool extractors are quite amazing at filling the sacs, they fill rock solid full and when they do there there is a distinct audible change to the motor that wakes you up immediately [even with ear protection] and you know instantly the bag is full - no need for no stinkin alarms. I have two ctl's works every time.