Overly tight fit with new Festool tools?

[ReneS]

My relatively new Festool 37mm hose is very hard to connect to my tools, such as the Domino. I finally stopped using the bayonet connection (twist and lock?) cause it felt like too much stress on the connection point.

Also, the parts on my new MFT table (haha) that slide on the aluminum side rails were very hard to slide into position. I mean very hard.

Has anyone else had this experience?

Is this normal for Festool?

If yes, do they do it figuring that things will wear and loosen over time?

Made me wonder whether their QA had taken a hit...

 

[Crazyraceguy]

I assume you mean 27mm? since the 36mm does not fit the Domino. It has the smaller port, similar to the sanders.
Yes, they are tight. I much prefer the older style, with the ribbed hose end. The rubber seemed softer and the rotation didn't matter. The newer ones take more effort, rotation and force, though I rarely insert the hose fully onto the Domino. It will break-in over time, but in my experience, not much.
The bigger fittings, like the track saws, work with both size hoses. The larger fitting fits over the port, rather than into it, and this is easier. It really only applies to large port tools though. Track saws, routers, etc.

 

[woodferret]

Also, the parts on my new MFT table (haha) that slide on the aluminum side rails were very hard to slide into position. I mean very hard.

Has anyone else had this experience?

I'm going to assume you didn't mean the knob / bottom nut, as that's just backing it out.  Instead, I figure it's the top hook that's giving you trouble.  In the picture below, right behind the handle, there are two large hex socket bolts that give the clamping arm force.  It's also attached to the hook.  Try backing those two out a bit.  You'll have to tighten them again to get a light hold on the handle, but there's a sweet spot on giving the hook some play and the handle being tight.

[attachimg=1]

 

[mino]

...
Is this normal for Festool?

If yes, do they do it figuring that things will wear and loosen over time?

Made me wonder whether their QA had taken a hit...

Yes, this is normal for any tool designed for high lifetime.

We are getting so used to the loose disposable garbage sold everywhere, it is easy to forget or even not realise how a long life tool/machine looks.

-------------
The long read:
Only if your manufacturing is top-notch (meaning high precision), can you afford such minimal tolerances/tight fits as Festool goes for in many places.

But why to go with that trouble?
The tighter a fit, the longer the item life. The looser a fit, the shorter the life/lower the durability of the item. The looser a fit the smaller the edge contact surfaces, where all the force is applied, this results in much faster wear and tear on the contacts. Just this alone - tight versus loose fit - can make for a 10x (and more) durability difference.

Of course, one still needs to be able to move items that are to move. But here when you design for a long lifetime - think 10+ years of  daily use as the minimum - you go for as tight as possible. The assumption being that 99% of the tool life will be in the "broken-in" state so that is the situation you design for. Think of it as a car engine - if the cylinder are a bit loose, it will run very well when new but will need serious maintenance pretty soon - once broken-in it would start losing or, worse, diluting oil. On the other hand if the engine is a made a bit tighter than optimal when new, it will run at peak only once broken-in. But it will run this way for many, many miles.

Now, the real "problem":
Given Festool kit is make for professional /i.e. daily/ use, something that would be broken-in in a few weeks/months by a professional may never get broken-in by a hobbyist with his super-rare use.

A nice case in point are the classic style systainer catches. They are notoriously difficult to open - when new. So many people file them a bit so they go easier. The problem? These filed catches stop working after a couple hundred/thousand open/close cycles and can no longer be relied on closing reliably. Which happens to be about the time the "original" catches stop being too hard to open ..

Further an item that is a bit too tight can be sanded/filed a bit to fit snug. No way to do that with a loose item. Historically, it was normal for professionals to maintain their tools, so a tighter fit from factory was preferred. That was the time proper master/apprentice relationships existed too and a "normal" person could not really afford professional tools.

Then there is the price thing.

Yes, Festool can make their stuff a snug and smooth fit, Centrotec-head-style. The "small" problem being that is a pretty expensive manufacturing step, further increasing the item price, in some cases probably multiplying the price of an accessory. And, well, we do not live in a perfect world with unlimited money to spend on tools ...

Either case, what you "observe" is generally not a lack of quality, or QA, it is actually the opposite.
That said, I am sad to report that the newer Festool designs are aligning with that "looser fit at the cost of a reduced tool life" expectation the younger generation has. May cheer you up. Does the opposite for me..

 

[ReneS]

Thanks for the replies, guys.

And Mino, that was very interesting. I was thinking along those lines, but wasn't sure I was right.

Funny that it took me a while to realize that I don't have to muscle the hose on so I can use the twist and lock function. It is such a tight fit that I can just attach it half way. It works fine that way, at least on the Domino and sander.

 

[Cheese]

FWIW...here's a photo of the original connecting sleeve 456756 on the left and the bayonet style 500668 that replaced it on the right.

I believe the rubber connector wall is thicker on the bayonet style to accommodate all of the extra dips & protrusions that are needed.

[attachimg=1]

 

[Coen]

The bayonet made everything worse. It's cross section for actual airflow is smaller and with some tools it's indeed very hard to connect.

I have a HK85 and when using the 36mm hose with bayonet... when you try to disconnect the hose... it tends to rip off the rotating part from the dustport on the saw..

The amount of times I had excessive dust because a non-bayonet hose fell off is less than the times I had excessive dust because of a bayonet hose (especially the 27) clogging with something the non-bayonetted one wouldn't have clogged on. Especially floor cleaning is now nearly impossible with the 27 hose.

Over time they become easier to get on tools, but the bayonet problem stays.

 

[Michael Kellough]

The bayonet made everything worse. It's cross section for actual airflow is smaller and with some tools it's indeed very hard to connect.

I have a HK85 and when using the 36mm hose with bayonet... when you try to disconnect the hose... it tends to rip off the rotating part from the dustport on the saw..

The amount of times I had excessive dust because a non-bayonet hose fell off is less than the times I had excessive dust because of a bayonet hose (especially the 27) clogging with something the non-bayonetted one wouldn't have clogged on. Especially floor cleaning is now nearly impossible with the 27 hose.

Over time they become easier to get on tools, but the bayonet problem stays.

The upstream hose end or port should always be larger than what it’s connected to. The hose should fit over the port at the tool and fit into the port at the vac. Makita gets this right more consistently than the others.

 

[mino]

...
The upstream hose end or port should always be larger than what it’s connected to. The hose should fit over the port at the tool and fit into the port at the vac. Makita gets this right more consistently than the others.

... at the price of having about the most inconsistent hose fittings on their tools I have seen, to keep some perspective.

That all Festool tools can work with a D27 hose that happens to be the same as the D22 hose end is not "free". There are compromises to make here. Some pretty tough ones.

As for cleanup, the only issue I see is the D36 hose end fit over the angle hand tube is too loose, some other solution would be desired there, possibly with an over-hose clamp or something. Beyond that, the D27/32 hose use for cleanup is more of an emergency usage, so good it is possible and that is about it in my view. Though I can certainly see many site animals to not be OK with the position that cleanup == D36 ...

 

[squall_line]

As for cleanup, the only issue I see is the D36 hose end fit over the angle hand tube is too loose, some other solution would be desired there, possibly with an over-hose clamp or something. Beyond that, the D27/32 hose use for cleanup is more of an emergency usage, so good it is possible and that is about it in my view. Though I can certainly see many site animals to not be OK with the position that cleanup == D36 ...

The new plastic angle piece for the cleaning set has a bayonet fitting that you can lock in place.  The old metal angle piece is downright obnoxious to use with a D36 hose...

 

[mino]

The new plastic angle piece for the cleaning set has a bayonet fitting that you can lock in place.  The old metal angle piece is downright obnoxious to use with a D36 hose...

Unfortunately, I was referring to the "new" bayonet style plastic piece .. have three of them from various cleaning sets. It is just not tight-enough for my tastes as I am constantly worried about the hose falling off. That it is under my hand does not help either. Especially annoying when working with the tubes high up to reach ceiling, on a ladder, etc. Will probably end up printing a dedicated securing bracket or something for that which will go over the hose and secure it properly.

The Makita and Nilfisk two-piece hose ends are more secure for this use, but much worse for attaching tools .. guess one cannot have everything.

 

[Coen]

The bayonet made everything worse. It's cross section for actual airflow is smaller and with some tools it's indeed very hard to connect.

I have a HK85 and when using the 36mm hose with bayonet... when you try to disconnect the hose... it tends to rip off the rotating part from the dustport on the saw..

The amount of times I had excessive dust because a non-bayonet hose fell off is less than the times I had excessive dust because of a bayonet hose (especially the 27) clogging with something the non-bayonetted one wouldn't have clogged on. Especially floor cleaning is now nearly impossible with the 27 hose.

Over time they become easier to get on tools, but the bayonet problem stays.

The upstream hose end or port should always be larger than what it’s connected to. The hose should fit over the port at the tool and fit into the port at the vac. Makita gets this right more consistently than the others.

Haha. Makita can't even tell you what hose fits what tool of their own brand...

The restriction with the 27 is the logical consequence of dustports that allow the D27 to go into the port and the D36 to go over. Wasn't really a problem before the bayonet..

 

[ReneS]

Also, the parts on my new MFT table (haha) that slide on the aluminum side rails were very hard to slide into position. I mean very hard.

Has anyone else had this experience?

I'm going to assume you didn't mean the knob / bottom nut, as that's just backing it out.  Instead, I figure it's the top hook that's giving you trouble.  In the picture below, right behind the handle, there are two large hex socket bolts that give the clamping arm force.  It's also attached to the hook.  Try backing those two out a bit.  You'll have to tighten them again to get a light hold on the handle, but there's a sweet spot on giving the hook some play and the handle being tight.

[attachimg=1]

Thank you. (I just got back to your post a few minutes ago.)

Yes, I believe it is the pressure on the metal hook that runs along the extrusions at the top. I was calling them rails.

I just tried your suggestion, and it helped me make the squaring adjustments more easily - I can now slide the two parts (front and back rail "attachments") along the extrusions more freely. This made it easier to adjust the rail to be square to the fence and have the front and back attachments line up so the rail pretty much drops down onto the pin without any movement left or right.

Thanks again.

 

[Crazyraceguy]

The restriction with the 27 is the logical consequence of dustports that allow the D27 to go into the port and the D36 to go over. Wasn't really a problem before the bayonet..

Keep fixing it until it is broken.... [big grin]