Parf Dogs

[peter halle]

Richard,

On the forum homepage you can scroll down to the bottom and under the Forum stats click on the the icon to the left and you will be able to see stuff.

Peter

 

[jimbo51]

Slappy described a process which will work for a copyright. I think patent rights work differently.

 

[JeromeM]

The point is still that if you want to keep a secret you don't post it on the FOG.

You don't post it anywhere until you at least document a set of plans
THE best way to that is :
draw the plans up in detail at least 3 views from all angles
then give a clear detailed description written out in a narrative  
dated & have a 2nd party witness sign that they observed the documents on that dated
THEN send the package of docs to yourself by registered mail
by you signing for the registered mail in person you have established a legal proof a time/date stamp of the dated materials .
from that moment forward it's your idea legally
[blink]

this will not work in the US it provides NO protection  http://www.copyright.gov/help/faq/faq-general.html#what

]I’ve heard about a “poor man’s copyright.” What is it?
The practice of sending a copy of your own work to yourself is sometimes called a “poor man’s copyright.” There is no provision in the copyright law regarding any such type of protection, and it is not a substitute for registration.

It may help in the UK http://www.copyrightservice.co.uk/services/alternatives 

Post/envelope systems
Any system where you retain the evidence yourself is very weak as it provides no independent evidence, and means that a court or tribunal would only have your word that you actually placed the work in the envelope at the time of posting.
If you use the postal service (sometimes called ‘poor man’s copyright’), or any commercial system which requires you to store the work yourself, there is no evidence to say that the contents have not been swapped, or that you did not seal the envelope years later. It is so easy to cast doubt on such evidence, we believe it is next to worthless.

http://www.snopes.com/legal/postmark.asp

 

[andy5405]

This has all got a little out of hand and maybe some perspective is needed. First things first, dogs with a myriad of different designs and implementations have been around as long as carpenters have had work benches. Trust me when I say that there is nothing on FOG or Talkfestool that is anything other than a variation on a theme or an improved version of an existing design when it comes to bench dogs or rail dogs or whatever you want to call them. If anyone thinks they have designed or invented something new then they are clearly deluded. It's like taking the wheel and telling people you have made it rounder or better. People would laugh and they should do the same if someone gets confused enough to claim themselves as an inventor of any type dog used in carpentry as they probably were first used in some sort of crude form at about the same time the first wheels were made. I'm aware that my analogy isn't perfect for any lurking pedants but I hope people get my point.

In the past I have put a huge amount of time into researching all the implementations of dogs intended for use specifically with the MFT top, Festool guide rails and plunge saws. That research was initially on the internet in general and I soon realised that 20mm dogs didn't really exist. I didn't own an MFT, track saw or guide rails at the time but had been lusting after them for over 3 years in a way that only Festool addicts would truly understand. This was all happening around 2010-2011. Sometime in 2011 I discovered the existence of Qwas Dogs and subsequently devoured every available thread on the FOG and Talk Festool that discussed their original implementation and user experience.

At the same time and I'm not really sure whether it was before or after I became aware of Qwas dogs I came up with the plans that I have posted on this thread and previously on FOG. It is an identical idea to Peter's implementation that have become known as Parf Dogs. Neither myself nor Peter are brilliant in any way as a result of having identical ideas at different times. Everyone really needs to get this, they are round lumps of aluminium used to attach a straight edge to a workbench. Nothing has been invented. The FOG community is a great resource for sharing and developing ideas but sometimes people can get a bit over zealous when congratulating others for actually inventing something that is merely a variation on a theme. Those being congratulated can sometimes lose perspective and lose track of the fact that their idea has been inspired by countless other ideas learnt both on and offline over a lifetime.

I should at this stage apologise for waffling but I'm getting to my point. There have been a lot of teddies thrown out of quite a few prams ever since Qwas dogs first hit the streets. I threw a small one out of my pram yesterday and Steve himself has done the same in the past. It really is time every drank a can of growing up juice (myself included) and realised that this is a community where we all benefit from sharing each other's ideas. It is childish beyond belief to use that community to your own advantage for any type of commercial gain or the gains we receive in a hobbyist capacity and then get offended when others gain in any way from ideas you have shared publicly. You are only paying something back into the community you have profited from when someone uses your own ideas in any way.

If anyone is still silly enough to want to discuss patents and copyrights in this context I can save people a lot of heartache. I am a trained mechanical engineer and studied patent law as part of that educational process. If you want to patent something there is one golden rule that applies above any other. KEEP YOUR MOUTH SHUT. You can't successfully patent something that is already in the public domain. It's really that simple.

Furthermore if there are any budding entrepreneurs out there that want to take any of the dog ideas on here and sell them commercially I certainly wouldn't be offended. I have certainly considered selling my own idea and possibly a copy of the Qwas Dogs and any other dogs for that matter. It would not be immoral in any way. You simply can't expect to take moral or legal ownership of a round lump of aluminium.

I have had discussions with 2 manufacturers and costed small production runs of 50 dogs of different descriptions. You would be amazed how cheap they are to produce even in small production runs and I mean really cheap! It's not like there are millions of CNC lathes sitting idle all around the world. It's get's better when you consider that you are selling into a community that is conditioned like no other to pay ridiculous money for accessories. Add to that a global market where you can ship your product in a small jiffy bag and it's a slam dunk opportunity for anyone who wants to grab it by the balls.

So let's all get real and play nicely. We're mere fiddlers and fixers who enjoy solving a challenge in a workshop. None of us are brilliant or especially clever. Those accolades should be reserved for people like Einstein and Newton that come along a change he world we live in beyond recognition. They happen once a century, other inspirational inventors come along perhaps once every generation. I could go on (some might say I have!) but none of us on here are even the tiniest blip on the radar in this context.

The FOG is quite simply a global community of inspired woodworkers who share ideas and help each other solve problems. We all take so be prepared to give. 

 

[andy5405]

I should add that what I posted yesterday was misguided and I owe Peter an apology. I have edited one of the posts and toned it down considerably though Peter will almost certainly have read the original post and been justifiably offended. I would respectfully ask that there is no more mud slinging on this topic, especially any aimed at Peter. If you need to get out more and want to take it out on someone else then have a go at me. I stirred up the hornet's nest.

Also on the subject of the community and sharing I should confess something that makes me feel rather sanctimonious when I reflect on the last few days. It was only three days ago that I used one of Peter's videos to demonstrate a product to a customer. It was Osmo worktop oil and I'm refinishing some worktops as a freebie and a sweetener to a customer who has become difficult to communicate with. I've dabbled with making videos so have an idea how much work there is involved in producing the quality of videos that Peter does.

He has undoubtedly been one of the most valued contributors to FOG since he has joined and given a lot of his time and expertise for all to share. I have absolutely no issues whatsoever with Peter. It is only my own opinion and if anyone else thinks otherwise that is their right. Even if you disagree with me Peter has earned the right to have the odd faux pas. He is definitely a giver. Are you and should you really be casting the first stone?

 

[ajones]

I was tempted to post yesterday but decided not too....but

If we cast our minds back to the time Peter anounced the dogs and later when he did the video,his only reward was the set of dogs that he used in the video

his motivation was not monitary gain. not that it should be an issue..

And where are we now? everyone both sides of the atlantic have access to this product, at what can only be described a very reasonable price..

I have one negative comment and it is directed at the moderation of the latter part of this thread. it was an insult to everyone.

 

[andy5405]

I unwittingly copied your template idea, had no idea you had discussed it before (almost to the letter) - the 30mm guide bush holes and the registration 20mm holes in the corners (my particular take on it anyway). Discussed it at length with Steve Qwas over email too, don't think he'd twigged it had been discussed before either. Only saw your idea when you posted the link earlier. Uncanny. I'll take some photos if you're interested in it and never got round to it yourself.

When getting a new 8x4 sheet CNCd up I got them to whip out a template on half a sheet too so I wouldn't be bothering them again. Works a charm too.

However, that said, anyone with access to the SQL database behind this forum would be able to say which user has seen what post at what time. Just saying.

And that is how it happens. We're all the same guys trying to overcome the same problems. It really isn't that surprising if we come up with the same ideas. I genuinely believe Peter hadn't seen my original thread.

I remember my engineering thesis very well. 21 students who all had to come up with an original idea, design it, build it and write about our conclusions. A lot of the guys put a lot of effort into coming up with something truly original and we were constantly amazed that everything we came up with had already been done before. We have around 8 billion people in the world and only a tiny percentage are original thinkers.    

I still think my original thesis idea was inspired though and all my peers were in awe of what I produced. The lecturers didn't see it that way and it was marked as the lowest on my whole course. That was politics though as I had ruffled a lot of feathers as a student. Happy days!!

 

[andy5405]

I have one negative comment and it is directed at the moderation of the latter part of this thread. it was an insult to everyone.

I didn't see almost all of the replies until the next day for me so I can't comment and I'm not particularly interested. I certainly don't always agree with the moderation on here or any other forum for that matter. If we did all agree on everything it would be a very boring world and there would be no need for any form of mediation in any aspect of our lives.

 

[Stone Message]

I have one negative comment and it is directed at the moderation of the latter part of this thread. it was an insult to everyone.

I didn't see almost all of the replies until the next day for me so I can't comment and I'm not particularly interested. I certainly don't always agree with the moderation on here or any other forum for that matter. If we did all agree on everything it would be a very boring world and there would be no need for any form of mediation in any aspect of our lives.

You need to look at Peter's intervention from my perspective and then you will understand why he wanted to calm things down and I am grateful to him.

I am very grateful for Andy setting the matter straight and for Festoolfootstool for reminding everyone about the early days.

I think that we all need to get together for a beer!

Peter

 

[JeromeM]

I think that we all need to get together for a beer!

For you [attachimg=#]

 

[andy5405]

I think the beer idea is a good one!!!! I'm always up for that. And so the storm in a teacup ends. Aren't forums great fun when it's raining outside.

So in conclusion a few people came up with a similar and simple solution to a simple problem. I don't think they will be holding the front pages of any of the UK broadsheets. I don't have any contacts in the Washington Post so you guys across the pond might want to buy it on spec in case they do a follow up piece tomorrow.

For me I'm happy with the fact that Axminster sell something that I had a tiny part in. That's made my day.

For the rest of you take note. Peter had the same idea and actually got up off his arse and did something about it. That is why they are called Parf Dogs.

 

[semenza]

Kudos to the forum members involved in this little debate for raining it in,  coming down to earth,  being realistic and going civil.  It is a tribute to the membership in general of this forum that this is the standard way of things on FOG.

Seth 

 

[Stephen B]

[size=11pt]

This all reminds me of a design theory which is akin to osmosis. Best example apart from this most recent one on the FOG is the design of a new type of car in the late 70s. Within months most of the Japanese and European car manufacturers had hatchbacks on the market and they were often very similar, even more so than now. Did they copy each other through industrial espionage, maybe but unlikely given so many started producing them. The more likely reason is that a given set of criteria or engineering problems often have a limited range of design solutions.

I'll have a dark ale thanks.

[wink]

 

[Stone Message]

Just to remind everyone that Parf Dogs are not just for Christmas they are for life !

My daughter-in-law came up with this when she thought that she might be getting a pair in her Christmas stocking.

Peter

 

[RONWEN]

Just to remind everyone that Parf Dogs are not just for Christmas they are for life !

My daughter-in-law came up with this when she thought that she might be getting a pair in her Christmas stocking.

Peter

No expiration date?  [blink]

 

[sancho57]

I have one negative comment and it is directed at the moderation of the latter part of this thread. it was an insult to everyone.

I didn't see almost all of the replies until the next day for me so I can't comment and I'm not particularly interested. I certainly don't always agree with the moderation on here or any other forum for that matter. If we did all agree on everything it would be a very boring world and there would be no need for any form of mediation in any aspect of our lives.

You need to look at Peter's intervention from my perspective and then you will understand why he wanted to calm things down and I am grateful to him.

I am very grateful for Andy setting the matter straight and for Festoolfootstool for reminding everyone about the early days.

I think that we all need to get together for a beer!

Peter

Hey bud you buying?? [big grin]  Nothing goes better then a cold beer and a hotdog with lots of catsup and mustard on it...

I like them so much, I take a little bit with with me to remind me how good it was.(hehehehehehehe)

 

[Stone Message]

Hey bud you buying?? [big grin]  Nothing goes better then a cold beer and a hotdog with lots of catsup and mustard on it...

I like them so much, I take a little bit with with me to remind me how good it was.(hehehehehehehe)

Hi Ron,

I am sure that there will be a chance sometime in 2014. In the meantime keep practicing holding those 15 inch hotdogs.

Peter

 

[sancho57]

Hotdogs aient the problem, its the catsup.

I always seem to bring a bit home with  me :>D

Hopefully it will be before te D&M show thats way to far away.

 

[Stone Message]

Hotdogs aient the problem, its the catsup.

I always seem to bring a bit home with  me :>D

Hopefully it will be before te D&M show thats way to far away.

Yes, next time we meet at the D&M show it would be a good idea to wear a red T Shirt (or a plastic bag) !

Happy New Year Ron.

Peter

 

[sancho57]

I wonder if they make a festool bib  [crying]