Parf Guide mark 2 issues and questions

[peter halle]

Reading through this thread from top to bottom, there appears to be some conflicting information on what created the problem and how many pieces may have the problem.

I have one stick that’s as good as I can measure. The other five pieces each have the alternating error pattern to different extents. That’s twenty minus five, or fifteen for everyone else.

It does seem odd to me that the expensive tools at Axminster do not detect a problem the can be measured with inexpensive dial calipers. Still more curious is the root cause.

A great tool, but plagued with a problem.

If you haven't already, I would suggest that you reach out to Axminster.  They are a class act from what I have read and I can't imagine that they wouldn't want to make things right.

Peter

 

[Klemm]

TSO's customers have only reported an occasional missing small part with the MARK 2. We solved that by stocking small parts - just in case.
No other Mark 2 problems.
For TSO customers: we have your back and AXMINSTER supports us very well.

Hans and Eric

 

[Mike Goetzke]

Another somewhat disappointed customer.

When I received my MK2 everything looked good after a quick visual inspection. I had time to check the rules a little closer and think I too have an issue  [mad] even though I waited for rule issues to be flushed out.

Got somewhat specious when I took the plastic sleeves off the rules. Rules had many fingerprints and grease/goop marks on them. The UJK markings don't look the same so I'm wondering if I have a mix new/old rules (photos below).

My 96mm spaced holes if pinned at the zero hole will accept the long shoulder drill guide easily on most and with a twist of the guide on the others. The 32mm holes are similar to the 96mm. My issue is with the 48mm spaced holes. I couldn't even get the pin on the drill guide to go in. Upon further inspection the 48mm spacing holes in one of my rules are undersized!

Rule on bottom is the one with the issue - does it look like old stock? (look at last image - looks like I received two old stock)

Have emailed Axminister.

What bothers me is if they did indeed invest in expensive measuring devices why do they fail somewhat simple functional test performer by customers.

UPDATE:

I spend a little more time looking at my rules and here is an update to my post above:

1) After thinking about the greasy fingerprints on my rules as received it's probably a good thing - they must be checking them.

2) I agree with Peter Parfitt that it is very difficult to measure the hole sizing or spacing using a device like a digital calipers. A functional test is probably best as described earlier in this post. Lock hole "0" and try to stick the drill guide with the long pin through the two rules on a flat surface.

3) Using a functional test I can get the drill guide to fit in all but one set of holes on my two rules.

4) My bad hole is the last 48mm spacing hole in only one of the rules. Looking with magnifiers I was a little surprised to see that it looks like the holes are punched. Think if I chase this hole with a 6mm drill I will be fine.

Mike

 

[Klemm]

[member=4518]Mike Goetzke[/member] - AXMINSTER senior management has been in touch with us about your observations. I know you have spoken with their customer service staff and they are shipping a new pair of Parf Sticks to you - in the best AXMINSTER Customer Service tradition.

We can all appreciate the difficulties during roll-out of a very popular product. Customer demand for product applying pressure - like in your case. And the manufacturer working hard to sort out what needs improving at the same time. Obviously a lot of learning going on in the supply chain.

We stand ready to help anyone with any AXMINSTER customer service issues.

Hans

 

[Mike Goetzke]

[member=4518]Mike Goetzke[/member] - AXMINSTER senior management has been in touch with us about your observations. I know you have spoken with their customer service staff and they are shipping a new pair of Parf Sticks to you - in the best AXMINSTER Customer Service tradition.

We can all appreciate the difficulties during roll-out of a very popular product. Customer demand for product applying pressure - like in your case. And the manufacturer working hard to sort out what needs improving at the same time. Obviously a lot of learning going on in the supply chain.

We stand ready to help anyone with any AXMINSTER customer service issues.

Hans

[member=59331]TSO Products[/member]

Hans - I called them early this morning to tell them I was willing to re-drill my undersized hole if it was OK with them but they were busy and I couldn't stay on hold any longer. Then an hour later I get a note that they inspected/sent out another set of rules. So I'm taken care of either way.

Mike

 

[Mike Goetzke]

2) I agree with Peter Parfitt that it is very difficult to measure the hole sizing or spacing using a device like a digital calipers. A functional test is probably best as described earlier in this post. Lock hole "0" and try to stick the drill guide with the long pin through the two rules on a flat surface.

Agreed . . . it is very difficult to measure the distance accurately, but it is not difficult to detect that there’s a difference in the distance between adjacent hole pairs - even with a dial caliper.

The problem with using the functional test as described is that the distance between adjacent holes is in error on both sticks, but they will likely line up because the error has a pattern that is consistent across all other sticks.

Suggestion : Put a pin through hole zero on the first stick and hole one on the second stick, then check the other holes. I will do this tonight with my six Parf MK II sticks - one of which seems to be good.

[member=67413]box185[/member]

This was a good suggestion. I tried this last night and was able to get the drill guide through both rules. Besides my one 48mm offset hole being undersize (which I plan to remedy this weekend) my rules seem to be perfect!

Mike

 

[gnlman]

Well I rec'd my second Mark 11 system after ruler issues with my first set....checked the rulers and they are better, but still an issue. As I did before, I installed the threaded pin thru hole one on both rulers stacked on each other and used the longer shoulder guide bushing to push thru both rulers. All was good until I reached hole 9..it was OK, but all holes after that were visually off....I could get the guide bushing to go thru the offset holes, but only after some manipulation...seems one of my rulers is not straight at one end..I could see this but put a straight edge on it and it seems starting around hole 9 the one ruler is not straight...I would have been happy to have some fingermarks on the rulers if it meant they were checked before they reshipped my the entire kit again. I've emailed them and I'm sure they will fix the issue. Here is a pic of the rulers in case anyone else needs to check their own. I realise this is not off by much, but can't help but think I will not get accurate results at say a 90 degree part of the triangle.
Greg

 

[Mike Goetzke]

[member=8389]gnlman[/member]

Sorry to hear your rules still seem to be off. As I mentioned above, looks like the holes are punched in the rule. If they do this operation for all holes at once I don't think the straightness of the rule is important.

When you insert the drill guide with the long pin try holding the rules against the flat surface and give a slight twist to it. See if they seem to line up better this way.

Mike

 

[gnlman]

Hi Mike. Yes did that already. Gave the long shoulder drill guide a bit of a spin which helps and makes sense...didn't work from hole 10 forward. I had to press on the side of one of the rulers to get the drill guide in. Once I did that it was apparent visually that the holes below 9 were not lining up anymore. It seems like a small thing, but I don't think it will be as accurate as I'd like to see it...and I thought only wood moved once you cut it...lol
Greg

 

[Peter Durand]

Hi Mike. Yes did that already. Gave the long shoulder drill guide a bit of a spin which helps and makes sense...didn't work from hole 10 forward. I had to press on the side of one of the rulers to get the drill guide in. Once I did that it was apparent visually that the holes below 9 were not lining up anymore. It seems like a small thing, but I don't think it will be as accurate as I'd like to see it...and I thought only wood moved once you cut it...lol
Greg

Oh man, that sure looks like sloppy manufacturing (outsourced to China?). I would have expected better from this company. I hope you get a replacement  that  is better than that piece.

Cheers,
Peter

 

[Stone Message]

I would hope that anyone finding any issues with whatever kit it is would talk to the supplier to get a fix. In Axminster's case their Customer Service is second to none as other posts demonstrate.

Peter

 

[mlindholm]

I'm one of the latest folks to pick up the lovely Parf Guide system Mk II.  I'd been checking the website pretty regularly, and when I saw 3/19 they showed in-stock, quickly put my order in, at 10:40am CDT.  I figured since it was nearly 4pm UK time, particularly considering the statement on the website, it'd get shipped out Wednesday, maybe Thursday, arriving today, or maybe Monday the 25th.

There was some hiccup, my order never showed past Processing stage, and so I called Thursday to check-in.  They quickly looked into it, emailed me the tracking info, and I soon learned it was due for delivery Friday...only 3 days after ordering!

I'd also bought a few of the 1M, parallel jaw Trade Clamps, plus 2 extra Parf rulers.  Everything was well packed, the box had a slight kink in the middle, but that's because the clamps are thicker at the heads, so the middle was unsupported there.  No impact to anything inside that I could see.  About $30 to have a 1M long, 23Kg parcel delivered internationally in 3 days was quite reasonable.

I was able to use the set to drill up a nice grid of holes in a board this weekend, and it worked a treat.  The only quibble I had was the aluminum clamping collar wore through it's anodizing on the outside edge, where it rubbed against the drilling guide.  Still perfectly functional, just a little uglier.  I'll mention that to Axminster directly as well, in case they're not aware.

I don't know if the kit has changed slightly since the Mark II was introduced.  [member=59331]TSO Products[/member] has said they include a stainless steel clamping collar instead of (in addition to?) the set screw collar.  At this time, the provided collar is an aluminum clamping collar.

Also, the Mark I rulers available separately, seem to be Mark II rulers, with the 11 3mm holes drilled.  Peter mentioned they were going to be using the Mark II stock for these, but it seems they're using completed Mark II rulers!  [blink]  No complaints here.  [big grin] Having the full Mark II hole pattern is a nice bonus I wasn't counting on.  I'd planned to do some experiments, to see if 2 "Mark I" rulers can be used, and still get precision intermediate holes (32 and 48mm spacing), using Pythagorean theorem. I did some layouts in software (seen below), but haven't seen how practical they are to achieve in practice, and the minimum board size needed to allow for this.  [member=11196]Peter Parfitt[/member], I'll be sure to pass along what I find if you want to share with your viewers, or you're certainly welcome to run with the idea yourself.

 

[Mario Turcot]

To avoid confusion about the Original sticks and the Mark II sticks, here a picture of the originals label.
[attachimg=1]

On mine the labels are printed at the rounded end in black & graduated on the top instead of bottom. I would guess it's the same for all original sticks.

 

[Klemm]

FOG friends and TSO customers –
Most of us have learned that the internet gives everyone a microphone but not everyone uses it. So, when we read a comment on a forum it reflects that particular posters interests, views and/or experience. Fortunately for all of us, the FOG is a very well moderated forum. What is not easily determined: how widespread or broadly representative some of the reported experiences are. It is left to us FOG participants to assess without the benefit of seeing the underlying BIG PICTURE. Probably a safe bet that FOG posts are not always a “statistically valid sample”.
Of concern to TSO, we have seen a series of posts regarding non-conforming Parf Sticks for the Mark 2. As it turns out, not one of TSO’s customers have encountered or reported Parf Stick difficulties with one of the many PGS Mark 2 purchased from TSO. But we continue to keep close tabs on the issue.
Speaking with AXMINSTER again just hours ago they confirmed a defect rate below 1 %. Still they have added 100% inspection to identify and resolve any remaining root causes in the process which can be improved.
AXMINSTER shared with us early on that they were bringing the Parf Stick 6mm hole production in house to CNC machine these rather than punching. Fortunately, they have some very capable state of the art CNC machining centers capable of performing this operation. Of course, those already have unrelated production loads of their own. So, production catching up with demand is the remaining challenge.
TSO’s next stock order is being readied for air shipment at AXMINSTER as I write this and will be airborne to the US over the weekend. Allow next week for port-of-entry clearance, delivery and receiving in our Minnesota warehouse. Customers who signed up for preorder or notification will receive appropriate notifications.

Hans and Eric

 

[Mike Goetzke]

FOG friends and TSO customers –
Most of us have learned that the internet gives everyone a microphone but not everyone uses it. So, when we read a comment on a forum it reflects that particular posters interests, views and/or experience. Fortunately for all of us, the FOG is a very well moderated forum. What is not easily determined: how widespread or broadly representative some of the reported experiences are. It is left to us FOG participants to assess without the benefit of seeing the underlying BIG PICTURE. Probably a safe bet that FOG posts are not always a “statistically valid sample”.
Of concern to TSO, we have seen a series of posts regarding non-conforming Parf Sticks for the Mark 2. As it turns out, not one of TSO’s customers have encountered or reported Parf Stick difficulties with one of the many PGS Mark 2 purchased from TSO. But we continue to keep close tabs on the issue.
Speaking with AXMINSTER again just hours ago they confirmed a defect rate below 1 %. Still they have added 100% inspection to identify and resolve any remaining root causes in the process which can be improved.
AXMINSTER shared with us early on that they were bringing the Parf Stick 6mm hole production in house to CNC machine these rather than punching. Fortunately, they have some very capable state of the art CNC machining centers capable of performing this operation. Of course, those already have unrelated production loads of their own. So, production catching up with demand is the remaining challenge.
TSO’s next stock order is being readied for air shipment at AXMINSTER as I write this and will be airborne to the US over the weekend. Allow next week for port-of-entry clearance, delivery and receiving in our Minnesota warehouse. Customers who signed up for preorder or notification will receive appropriate notifications.

Hans and Eric

WOW - what was that post? Is it just me or does this post bother others too.

I'm very disappointed if Axminister (they have not directly spoken here) and/or TSO think an issue is being made-up or inflated in this thread.

In my case I was building three tops. Was ready to purchase the Parf Guide System but it was not available. I ended up getting them CNC's locally. I have ideas for auxiliary tables so still wanted the system so I could make my own tops. I found this thread and have heard nothing but good about Axminister even from the posters hear that had issues so I waited until their "quality-spill" was corrected and parts available for sale again. I tried ordering from TSO but the items quickly were out of stock so I received a mail that Axminister had them so I bought it.

Since the shut-down I'm at least the second person I have seen that had defective rule. I posted that I could probably fix it myself but it was unusable for all functions as delivered. Good news - Axminister is shipping a new set of rules.

I know people are more apt to post issues than success (I do) but usually it's to try to see if others have had the same and how to resolve it.

Questions:

1) Bought my set after shipping was stopped. Why did I still get punched hole rules when they knew the supplied parts had defects?

2) I didn't count but in this thread I recall seeing at least 5-10 rules with defects. At 1% failure rate this means they sold 500 to 1000 "good" sets in this time frame? At 1% failure rate how did one user get, again as I recall, two or three defective sets?

(I'm sure these issues will get resolved but be careful not to bite the hand that feeds you.)

Mike

 

[Drew Sanderson]

Sounded fine to me. I'm not bothered by it. Good to have them stating what they believe was, is, and will be happening. Certainly better than silence.

 

[Klemm]

[member=4518]Mike Goetzke[/member]  Emails and posts can only convey so much. In this case not well enough. My sincere apology if you felt our post in any way diminished the validity of your experience report and that we are “biting the hand that feeds you (TSO)”.

Hans

 

[Mike Goetzke]

[member=4518]Mike Goetzke[/member]  Emails and posts can only convey so much. In this case not well enough. My sincere apology if you felt our post in any way diminished the validity of your experience report and that we are “biting the hand that feeds you (TSO)”.

Hans

[member=59331]TSO Products[/member]

I've had excellent product support from TSO. The Parf hole drilling jig was my first order from Axminister but they seem to be taking care of me too (my new rules are expected today).

Just perked me when I saw 1% failure rate, fixed rules have CNC drilled holes and mine still had punched, and sounded like things weren't as bad as projected here. If I interpreted you wrong my apologies to you too.

I work for a company that makes highly engineered products and the fear when you have an issue like has happened here - the customers start looking closer and become more critical than ever. In the end you need to build confidence back with the customer.

Mike

 

[rmwarren]

FWIW I'd grabbed the Mk2 guide a while back directly from Axminster before TSO had them available. Only got around to looking at the sticks this past weekend and sure enough, they had the misalignment issue that started this thread. Went to Axminster's site yesterday late, entered the info into their issues form, received notice this AM that replacement sticks are shipping.

It also blows me away that anything I've ever ordered from them ships @ a very reasonable cost and arrives in 4-5 days to the US east coast.

[member=63423]AxminsterTools[/member] - Kudos for fabulous customer service.

RMW

Hi Richard,

I am not sure if Axminster monitor the FOG so I will pass this on to them.

I am sorry that your original Parf Sticks were faulty - a problem that they have narrowed down to one batch of I think 20, probably when someone was finishing up for the weekend !

Peter

Thanks Peter, appreciate you passing it along. I'm just glad that [member=69430]wch[/member] noticed the problem originally and posted it here. I don't know what the end result would have been (i.e. how much deviation would have actually been introduced) but more accuracy is always better.

As a side note, it's been interesting to watch as companies like Axminster, Woodpeckers & TSO have gone thru the growing pains ramping up production of precision tools. During my limited foray into it with the Rip Dogs I ran into a couple of issues that required rework, it can be very time consuming especially for a dabbler like myself.  All 3 of the companies mentioned above are to me the gold-standard for how to deal with those challenges.

Cheers!

RMW

FWIW and to close out my "contribution" to this thread I received the replacement sticks yesterday and after a quick test all is hunky dory. I plan to make some precision holes this weekend in any nearby, unprotected, horizontal surfaces I can find... watch out neighbors.

RMW

 

[solyxius1]

Where did you get that small dust collection hood?

[member=4518]Mike Goetzke[/member]

I got mine from YellowBoxshed, price is low and shipping was good. But the best is it fit like a glove on the Parf guide. i'll post a photo of mine later tonight. I also ordered a few goodies to work with MFT tops and I'm very impressed by the quality.

[attachimg=1]

Its all about options. Down under with US dollar and postage costs someone like Yellowbox shed is great for Aussies/Kiwis and another great option if you 3D Print.

I hear you about postage fees. The order I did with Yellowboxshed came at a total of 96$ and the postage was 14.50$ I call this extremely fair.

Seems like there is another option for you guys in the US - appears the YellowBoxShed catalogue is also available locally via affiliation with TBDCNC