Parf Guide mark 2 issues and questions

[rmwarren]

I have found that both of my Parf sticks appear to be identical, with what appears to be machined rather than punched holes, and with the threaded pin in hole zero I can drop the longer drill guide into any hole with absolute ease, the scales on each rule also align perfectly. Fingerprints along both rules, fractionally raised painted lettering on both.

[member=4518]Mike Goetzke[/member], [member=67413]box185[/member], [member=8389]gnlman[/member]

So it seems whist my previous observations holds true, I haven't avoided issues that prevent using the system ... I'll try my best to explain. Let me know if you see a better test method.

1) The rudimentary test of threaded pin in one end, double depth drill guide in any of the other holes, only seems to alerts you to any longitudinal discrepancy. With threaded pin in 0, and double depth drill guide in 10, clamped down - awl in 10 then drill guide tested in holes 5-9 reveal some lateral discrepancy on my pair of sticks. With some coaxing I can register the guide, but this results in some lateral deflection of the ruler. Your rules could marry, but this only proves they match, not that they are true.

2) There seems to be maybe 1 to 1.5mm flex possible in the middle of the rules with hole 0 and 10 pinned. Perhaps working inwards from the ends and registering pins (although only 3 provided) either side of the hole to be drilled would minimise the chance that you flex the rule while applying downward but perhaps slightly lateral pressure on the drill guide whilst drilling.

3) With a test set of a single row of 10 holes, and UJK dogs in holes 0 and 10, a third dog in any of the holes 2-9, results in a Veritas straight edge rocking to varying degrees around the middle dog pivot point, worsening at 0 as you move the central dog closer to 10. With a dog in 9 and 10 anchored, and the straight edge pulled tight to these dogs, the discrepancy at hole 0 is approx 2mm (8=1.75mm, 7=1.25mm, 6=1.1mm, 5=0.75mm, 4=0.6mm, 3=0.25mm, 2=0.1mm). At 1 and 10 it's negligible at 0. It therefore appears I have a "bow" in rule #1 from holes 2 to 10.

Same process with ruler #2, the discrepancies are in the same direction, but inaccuracy approx halved. See Point 1.

4) I understand that the edges of the rules are not to be used for any form of reference, but the "bow" explained above is also mirrored with the top or bottom edges of the rule up against the straight edge, and magnified if the rule is flipped over. It can also be exhibited by applying the straight edge to the pins inserted in the rule. Both my pins (within 0.04mm) and rules (within 0.1mm) appear to be relatively consistent widths according to my mediocre calipers for this test to hold some merit - the rule edges may bear no reference to the holes, but I would presume they are intended to be machined somewhat straight and parallel.

5) It's possible these discrepancies could be compounded, depending on which way you position your rules to do rows and columns, and magnified further over longer runs than 1000mm highlights (in my case more than doubled over 2400mm).

About to contact the local supplier in Oz (Carbatec, hopefully as helpful as Axminster) and pick up some more MDF stock to test the triangular impact of the discrepancies noted ...

Cheers
Solly

[member=70294]Solly1[/member] that's disappointing to hear. The entire concept of the system is based on the geometric perfection of the components, it's starting to sound like Axminster has an issue delivering consistency. I checked my new stick to make sure the holes lined up with each other from end to end but didn't check either centerline hole-to-hole nor that they were in alignment end to end.

I brought my original pair of sticks into my office/workroom in the house to use them as straightedges and when I just checked them that are not both totally straight over their length. I compared them against each other, alternately flipping the over front/back and above/below each other until a pattern established. One appears to be straight and the other bowed about .5mm in the center.

As long as the holes are in line the straightness of the stick itself shouldn't matter, within reason. I guess I'll have to check the new sticks before making a top.

Based on what little I really know about machining I believe it is challenging to get precision in the 1,000's of an " over a meter long stretch. I'd assume the only way to assure that accuracy is to physically inspect each stick prior to shipping. My hunch is there would be a lot of rejected sticks. Caveat being I have zero idea what is an acceptable tolerance nor what Axminster is aiming for.

RMW

 

[solyxius1]

I checked my new stick to make sure the holes lined up with each other from end to end but didn't check either centerline hole-to-hole nor that they were in alignment end to end.

[member=8712]Richard/RMW[/member] wasn't a test that came to my mind initially after reading this thread either, but seems to be the most pertinent.

Another simple way to check the discrepancy is by drilling 0 and 10, inserting pins, then drilling 2 to 9 - per normal usage - then flipping the ruler front to back and reinserting the pins in 0 and 10 from the underside - it's becomes visually apparent without measurement. Ruler #2 can then be pinned and checked against these same holes also - in my case Rule 1 and Rule 2 hole 7 are close to each other but not straight (attached) - hence my initial thought all was well. I'd suggest everyone perform this check and let us know the results ...

With the ruler flipped or with Ruler #2, one can also try inserting pins in holes 2-9 with 0 and 10 pinned. I found that the micro chamfer on the rule holes actually allows some pins to seat with a good push, but with a thumb on the edge of the rule, you can detect the deflection in the rule as it does so.

Will be the first test I perform if I receive new rules (pending Carbatec, who are checking their stock for good candidates and awaiting direction from Axminster).

I really like the simple yet ingenious system Peter has designed, and can see many uses, so will persist until I can get a workable set to make best use of my virgin 2400 x 1200 Paulk style torsion top MFT!

Cheers
Solly

 

[solyxius1]

I noticed and posted the alignment problem with these holes when I received my second replacement set - and I thought I was discouraged then.

The set of three replacements that I received recently have all of the problems discussed here, and then Axminster today suggested that the replacement sticks are only for the original PGS - in spite of these sticks having the 6mm holes.

I saw a shipping notice from TSO today - so still hopeful, but looking at other options to make the 3mm pilot holes.

I had seen the discussion regarding hole sizes and hole spacing longitudinally, and alignment between rules, but not much on hole pattern straightness if those previous tests passed, so just wanted to add that into the mix of accuracy checks.

Not sure how Axminster could claim PGS Mark I applicability with 6mm holes ???. Good luck with the new set if that is what TSO shipped!

My thoughts also went towards an alternate method - not sure if I have any metal CNC machinists locally, but might talk to them if I find one, as to the possibility / cost of machining up an accurate pair of rules ... at the moment I'm testing if I can get an acceptable run of holes using only 3 or 4 near straight holes from my "better" ruler ...

 

[Klemm]

Friends and customers       
As the “principal stockists” of AXMINSTER’s UJK Technology products in the USA, we have a very personal stake in the continuing refinement and long-term success of the Parf Guide System tool series.

Peter Parfitt’s quest to make possible the construction of highly accurate 20mm worktops on the job site or home workshop is a more technically ambitious undertaking than it first appears. Not surprising, “pushing the close tolerance envelope” like this has not gone without some bumps in the road.

To their credit, but to no one’s surprise, AXMINSTER is stepping up to meet unanticipated production challenges. Some of these challenges are more like peeling the proverbial onion. The new problem does not become apparent until the preceding problem has been addressed.

The first layers of difficulties did not become apparent until a substantial production quantity had reached customers hands. Even then, it has proven quite challenging to make improvements without encountering unintended consequences.

Comments and dialog on the FOG provide helpful information, - including the understandable expressions of disappointment or even frustration. It all adds up to creating a more complete picture of what is going on in the field.  And all of it is followed by TSO and shared with AXMINSTER staff and senior management.

It would be a great help if you, as a customer receiving an unsatisfactory Parf Guide, give TSO the opportunity to evaluate the part right here in the US before any attempt has been made to correct or “fix” the problem. It does not matter from whom you purchased your Parf Guide. To help, we need the “evidence” to root out the underlying cause and we will provide the no-charge replacement from our fresh stock for the few examples which may still turn up.

Hans and Eric

PS: our stock shipment has been received in our warehouse and will be packed for shipment starting Monday April 8, 2019

 

[rmwarren]

It would be a great help if you, as a customer receiving an unsatisfactory Parf Guide, give TSO the opportunity to evaluate the part right here in the US before any attempt has been made to correct or “fix” the problem. It does not matter from whom you purchased your Parf Guide. To help, we need the “evidence” to root out the underlying cause and we will provide the no-charge replacement from our fresh stock for the few examples which may still turn up.

[member=59331]TSO Products[/member] Hans/Eric: I may have missed is earlier in the thread but are you requesting that we send you the questionable sticks for an autopsy?

I have a totally unused/unaltered set from the first run where Axminster already sent me the replacements, but I assume the issues with those are well understood by now. If not I'm happy to send them in.

RMW

 

[Klemm]

Richard,
thank you for responding to our data collection call. Yes, we would like to collec the data from your earlier parts. I'll give you a call on your mobile later this morning to make arrangements.

Hans

 

[jayshahu]

Great idea but the execution of the idea needs to be improved. Too many issues with the rulers IMHO. I have my kit waiting for when I get back home from my current project. Will check in about 2 weeks and report back.

 

[solyxius1]

Let me add Carbatec in Australia to both Axminster and TSO for excellent service in supporting the success of this product. Their regular communication, without me having to follow up for an update, has been fantastic and they have kindly arranged with Axminster to drop ship a new set of sticks out to me directly.

Fingers crossed ... will report findings once received and checked ;-)

Cheers
Solly

 

[Mike Goetzke]

Let me add Carbatec in Australia to both Axminster and TSO for excellent service in supporting the success of this product. Their regular communication, without me having to follow up for an update, has been fantastic and they have kindly arranged with Axminster to drop ship a new set of sticks out to me directly.

Fingers crossed ... will report findings once received and checked ;-)

Cheers
Solly

Can't argue about TSO and Axminister support. TSO by communicating by mouth but Axminister seems to be fine just continuing to send parts. I've tried to call Axminister a couple times but the tech staff was busy and never called back (maybe they are overwhelmed). I think Axminister just needs to take a step back and fix the couple issues and resolve them. From my inspection of parts they are oooooo so close.

I received my third set of rules yesterday from TNT/FedEx. The packaging was better but still a tube. They put the smaller tube into a bigger diameter/stiffer tube. They also sent the short and long drill guides.

This third set has the same issues as my first replacement set. The pins and short stubbed drill guide fit well but the bolt and long stub drill guide do not even fit in any of the holes on either rule.

I didn't touch this rule yet with a file to clean the holes and have attached a couple photos.

Two issues I see: 1) they need to clean the debris in the hole (or is this poor SS machine technique). 2) on the second photo to the left you can see the rolled over material that is preventing the drill guides from sitting flat on the rule.

(Axminister needs this -https://ezburr.com/)

 

[Michael Kellough]

There has been a lot of talk about the defective holes. Have you been measuring the diameter of the things that are supposed to fit into the holes?

 

[solyxius1]

This third set has the same issues as my first replacement set. The pins and short stubbed drill guide fit well but the bolt and long stub drill guide do not even fit in any of the holes on either rule.

[member=4518]Mike Goetzke[/member] - sorry to hear you found issues with the 3rd set. Aside from the rulers, you seem to also have a "new" discrepancy between pin and guide diameters [blink]

I read back thru your experience, but couldn't find any mention, I am curious to learn aside from the issues documented, if any/all of your rulers holes are straight and true (per my previous posts)? The whole objective of the system.

Cheers
Solly

 

[Mike Goetzke]

This third set has the same issues as my first replacement set. The pins and short stubbed drill guide fit well but the bolt and long stub drill guide do not even fit in any of the holes on either rule.

[member=4518]Mike Goetzke[/member] - sorry to hear you found issues with the 3rd set. Aside from the rulers, you seem to also have a "new" discrepancy between pin and guide diameters [blink]

I read back thru your experience, but couldn't find any mention, I am curious to learn aside from the issues documented, if any/all of your rulers holes are straight and true (per my previous posts)? The whole objective of the system.

Cheers
Solly

[member=70294]Solly1[/member]  I'm confident with little cleanup I can get the rules to work. On the second set a light file rub inside the holes fixed the diameter fit and I'm thinking of ways to clean the rolled over material on the surface.

 

[Michael Kellough]

This third set has the same issues as my first replacement set. The pins and short stubbed drill guide fit well but the bolt and long stub drill guide do not even fit in any of the holes on either rule.

[member=4518]Mike Goetzke[/member] - sorry to hear you found issues with the 3rd set. Aside from the rulers, you seem to also have a "new" discrepancy between pin and guide diameters [blink]

I read back thru your experience, but couldn't find any mention, I am curious to learn aside from the issues documented, if any/all of your rulers holes are straight and true (per my previous posts)? The whole objective of the system.

Cheers
Solly

[member=70294]Solly1[/member]  I'm confident with little cleanup I can get the rules to work. On the second set a light file rub inside the holes fixed the diameter fit and I'm thinking of ways to clean the rolled over material on the surface.

Wouldn’t a ream be better? What size is the hole meant to be?

 

[solyxius1]

[member=70294]Solly1[/member]  I'm confident with little cleanup I can get the rules to work. On the second set a light file rub inside the holes fixed the diameter fit and I'm thinking of ways to clean the rolled over material on the surface.

[member=4518]Mike Goetzke[/member] Sure, but I'm keen to see once you are able to drill holes and complete a row of 10, when dogs are inserted and a straight edge used to test them, if they end up actually being straight ... I don't have hole tolerance issues, just misaligned holes (and/or bowed rulers).

 

[Mike Goetzke]

[member=70294]Solly1[/member]  I'm confident with little cleanup I can get the rules to work. On the second set a light file rub inside the holes fixed the diameter fit and I'm thinking of ways to clean the rolled over material on the surface.

[member=4518]Mike Goetzke[/member] Sure, but I'm keen to see once you are able to drill holes and complete a row of 10, when dogs are inserted and a straight edge used to test them, if they end up actually being straight ... I don't have hole tolerance issues, just misaligned holes (and/or bowed rulers).

[member=70294]Solly1[/member] & [member=59331]TSO Products[/member]

I had a chance today to drill a line of holes. I found out you need to make sure everything is clean before you drill the holes or even small debris will cause the drill guide to rock.

I used my first replacement set of rules that were bent during shipping ( I straightened them pretty well). I used a convex needle file to clean the inside if the holes (just rubbed it - not hard enough to remove any metal only debris) and a 120 grit sanding wheel on my Dremel to remove the rolled over material on the chamfer.

I think the results were excellent! I put a UJK Long SuperDog in holes 1 & 10. I then used a Standard SuperDog in holes 2 through 8. I used the same LeeValley straight edge like Solly1 did and bridged between holes 1 & 10 and measured the gap between the straight edge and SuperDog. Here are the measurements: 0.000, 0.001, 0.001, 0.002, 0.001, 0.001, 0.000, 0.000. I moved the straight edge to the opposite side and now had gap at end dog - so the straight edge must be true.

Mike

 

[solyxius1]

Reassuring results [member=4518]Mike Goetzke[/member] - if the 2nd (or other) ruler yields similar results, then when used in conjunction to determine the perpendicular column, I think you would end up with a very accurate grid of holes indeed! Even if another rulers holes were not as straight, but the distance between hole 0 and 10 was the same as ruler #1, then the layout should theoretically be square, and you could use ruler #1 only to drill the holes straight between.

 

[Jruks]

Just a brief comment from me as I just received my Mark II package via TSO. Unfortunately I am away from my shop and won’t be able to truly test these sticks out for another two weeks, but in the meantime I have the following observations:

- I love that TSO took the time to add a note to their packaging highlighting past QC issues with earlier shipments from Axminster asking us to check our guide systems and confirm everything lines up etc - good to know that even people not following along with this thread are given the heads up to check their kits.
- this is my first hands on with the guide system (either mark I or II), and I was surprised and happy to see how beefy and heavy these parts are, both the rulers themselves as well as the drill guides, the pins, etc. impressive for sure.
- my two rules seem to be exact diplicates of each other, with the ujk logos slightly imprinted into the surface of the rulers
- My pins and drill guides fit nicely and snugly into each individual hole
- when I put the screw pin in position 0 and hold the rules in place, I can move the drill guide with the longer shoulder up through all position holes and have it drop into each hole without any perceivable shift in the two ruler positions - this is what I would expect if the two rulers are exact duplicates of each other.
- because I can’t really drill any holes I can’t comment on how co-linear the holes are on either ruler stick
- there is a definite bow to the sticks with the hump in the middle  such that the hump makes an upside down ‘u’ when the ruler is sitting in front of you with the numbers facing right side up. I don’t have feeler gauges with me but it’s perceptible if you butt the edges up to each other. With both rulers having numbers facing right side up there is no gap if butted one next to the other, meaning the bow/hump is the same direction on both sticks (again what I would expect if they were exactly alike). If you flip one so the numbers are upside down and the grid lines of each are butted up to each other, you see the gap in the middle.
- please note that the above line item is just an observation of the rulers themselves and I don’t have the ability right this minute to test the important part which is the colinearity (and spacing) of the holes themselves on each ruler.

I’m going to dig around to see if I have a drill and scrap anywhere so I can test out the linearity of the lines before I get back to my shop in two weeks...

Just wanted to highlight for now that at least it seems new orders (at least from TSO) are being shipped with identical rulers at this point in case anyone was worried.

 

[Mike Goetzke]

Just a brief comment from me as I just received my Mark II package via TSO. Unfortunately I am away from my shop and won’t be able to truly test these sticks out for another two weeks, but in the meantime I have the following observations:

- I love that TSO took the time to add a note to their packaging highlighting past QC issues with earlier shipments from Axminster asking us to check our guide systems and confirm everything lines up etc - good to know that even people not following along with this thread are given the heads up to check their kits.
- this is my first hands on with the guide system (either mark I or II), and I was surprised and happy to see how beefy and heavy these parts are, both the rulers themselves as well as the drill guides, the pins, etc. impressive for sure.
- my two rules seem to be exact diplicates of each other, with the ujk logos slightly imprinted into the surface of the rulers
- My pins and drill guides fit nicely and snugly into each individual hole
- when I put the screw pin in position 0 and hold the rules in place, I can move the drill guide with the longer shoulder up through all position holes and have it drop into each hole without any perceivable shift in the two ruler positions - this is what I would expect if the two rulers are exact duplicates of each other.
- because I can’t really drill any holes I can’t comment on how co-linear the holes are on either ruler stick
- there is a definite bow to the sticks with the hump in the middle  such that the hump makes an upside down ‘u’ when the ruler is sitting in front of you with the numbers facing right side up. I don’t have feeler gauges with me but it’s perceptible if you butt the edges up to each other. With both rulers having numbers facing right side up there is no gap if butted one next to the other, meaning the bow/hump is the same direction on both sticks (again what I would expect if they were exactly alike). If you flip one so the numbers are upside down and the grid lines of each are butted up to each other, you see the gap in the middle.
- please note that the above line item is just an observation of the rulers themselves and I don’t have the ability right this minute to test the important part which is the colinearity (and spacing) of the holes themselves on each ruler.

I’m going to dig around to see if I have a drill and scrap anywhere so I can test out the linearity of the lines before I get back to my shop in two weeks...

Just wanted to highlight for now that at least it seems new orders (at least from TSO) are being shipped with identical rulers at this point in case anyone was worried.

This is strange - following this thread seems TSO supplied systems haven't had issues but from Axminister directly they have. Is there extra effort or additional QC steps taken to assure TSO gets good product?

 

[Jruks]

[member=70294]Solly1[/member]  I'm confident with little cleanup I can get the rules to work. On the second set a light file rub inside the holes fixed the diameter fit and I'm thinking of ways to clean the rolled over material on the surface.

[member=4518]Mike Goetzke[/member] Sure, but I'm keen to see once you are able to drill holes and complete a row of 10, when dogs are inserted and a straight edge used to test them, if they end up actually being straight ... I don't have hole tolerance issues, just misaligned holes (and/or bowed rulers).

[member=70294]Solly1[/member] & [member=59331]TSO Products[/member]

I had a chance today to drill a line of holes. I found out you need to make sure everything is clean before you drill the holes or even small debris will cause the drill guide to rock.

I used my first replacement set of rules that were bent during shipping ( I straightened them pretty well). I used a convex needle file to clean the inside if the holes (just rubbed it - not hard enough to remove any metal only debris) and a 120 grit sanding wheel on my Dremel to remove the rolled over material on the chamfer.

I think the results were excellent! I put a UJK Long SuperDog in holes 1 & 10. I then used a Standard SuperDog in holes 2 through 8. I used the same LeeValley straight edge like Solly1 did and bridged between holes 1 & 10 and measured the gap between the straight edge and SuperDog. Here are the measurements: 0.000, 0.001, 0.001, 0.002, 0.001, 0.001, 0.000, 0.000. I moved the straight edge to the opposite side and now had gap at end dog - so the straight edge must be true.

Mike

Mike - were this set of ruler(s) you tested the linearity of the holes for above dead straight themselves? Or did they have a bow or a hump to them along one or both edges and still produce linear holes?

 

[Jruks]

This is strange - following this thread seems TSO supplied systems haven't had issues but from Axminister directly they have. Is there extra effort or additional QC steps taken to assure TSO gets good product?

I can’t answer this personally. Would seem odd if that was the case though..