Played with the Kapex Today - thoughts/questions...

[Warrior]

Brice,
It looks like you removed the miterscale. YIKEs! It is going to be a PITA to get it back cutting sqare and having the 45's accurate at the same time. There is slop in the mounting holes so you can get it to be accurate on the 90 and still be off on the 45's. Or do you know something I don't know.

Eiji

 

[Warrior]

Top inside edge.

 

[Warrior]

Everyone,
DO NOT REMOVE THE MITERSCALE!!!!! Getting the saw settings back will be difficult. Unless there is some technique that can be passed on to us. Brice?

Eiji

 

[Brice Burrell]

Eili is right it is hard to get the miter scale back on correctly. I have to say this again, don't do anything without contacting Festool first. If you are going to remove the scale mark its location as best as you can before taking it off, this will make it easier to get it back on right.

 

[mantonuc]

So, I just spoke with a technician and was explaining the problem...  He is sending me a new "plate" that he suspects will correct the issue.  I was asking him about one of the suggestions that I saw here about putting lubricant (Teflon) on the scale.  He did not necessarily recommend that as a fix...  The "plate" is what securely locks the miter angle as it makes contact with the scale.  It stands to reason that adding something that makes the interface between the two slippery will also allow the angle to maladjust while using the saw...

I am really surprised that this issue has not shown up before now.  I know that the saw was available for more than a year now on the other side of the pond.  Has something possibly changed with how it is manufactured/designed?  It seems to be too prevalent here to not have shown up else where in the world...  By the way, I too have had the case where the "issue" shows up and then goes away...  If it is explained by a burred edge, as was suggested, then how does it go away only to return as an issue again later.   Seems curious...

Matt

 

[Michael Kellough]

Eili is right it is hard to get the miter scale back on correctly. I have to say this again, don't do anything without contacting Festool first. If you are going to remove the scale mark its location as best as you can before taking it off, this will make it easier to get it back on right.

Here's a technique.

Put tough tape (I prefer 3M heavy duty packing tape) on the base around the miter scale. Then hot glue small blocks of wood to the tape so the miter scale is captured on at least one corner on both left and right sides.

The difficulty in getting a miter scale back on in the right place is that it is designed to be a specific distance from the pivot point. In assembly they probably use a gauge that registers in the pivot hole that the miter scale buttes up to.

If the miter scale is too close to the pivot point 45 degrees will be more than it should, too far from the pivot and the cut will be less than 45.

 

[honeydoman]

mine  that I bought from the first batch that came out, had bad scraping, took it back last friday and got a replacement from the second batch that woodcraft got in.  this one work very well no scraping and was doing crown all day swinging it back and forth.  seems like my problem has been solved.

quick fix?  $1,300.oo, scraping paint, etc.  no go get a new one. and festool can fix the returned ones and are already working on solving the problem,  these things happen sometimes with new stuff, but festool backs it up 100% and it is a great saw from a great company

 

[Julian Tracy]

I don't know... sounds like a lot of work for $1300 saw.

Not like we talking about a jigsaw that costs $295 compared to the equivalent Bosch at $165 - this miter saw has one helluva premium attached to it and for the miter adjust to be so overlooked and un-smooth is disappointing.

I looked at the Kapex yesterday at a Rockler store - the miter adjust was so ragged and tight that the MFT it was mounted on was moving around while adjusting it.

Damn shame they would let such an obvious adjustment be sloppy/tight.  My Dewalt just glides in the miter adjust and tweaking a certain angle in like butter.

Seems like the Festool miter saw version 2.0 should have a micro adjust wheel feature like the bevel adjust.

Every single miter saw I've owned has a better system for miter adjust than the Kapex I saw yesterday.

I'm no green basher - just picked up a MFT and a sander yesterday, and I could very easily talk myself into spending the cash.  But the miter adjust as I've seen it bites.

JT

 

[Steve Jones]

Played with a Kapex myself today, actually I had to put up crown molding in one room as part of a larger cabinet job. Someone kindly offered to loan me his Kapex for the job.

So I made maybe 12 cuts with the wonder machine......

First maybe I should point out that I did not receive a free kapex for this review.

My own cheap little miter saw is from Dewalt, a company I'm not particularly a fan of, since they make their share of junk tools, but I will use it for comparison.

first reaction: There's that nasty grinding noise and excessive drag while trying to adjust the miter, actually the miter lock does not work very well because it's a cheaply made piece of stamped steel that in it's relaxed state grips the outer edge of the gauge, press the release lever and an overcenter cam pushes it down slightly to release it's grip on the gauge - something I would expect to find on a tool with "chicago" in it's name (not a comment on that probably fine city, it's a common brand under which the worst examples of Chinese manufacturing technology are sold).

so I checked my own cheap Dewalt when I got back to the shop, nice brake system which clamps to a machined face on the outer face of the cast table itself (not a bolted on thin piece of sheet metal) - even more amazing is that should the dewalt ever get too loose or too tight (and grind) the tension is adjustable.

I also (because square corners in houses are never actually square) often needed to clamp just to one side of the detent - an annoying process with the Kapex since there is no way to lock out the detent, when you get close it'll jerk over and drop in - My humble Dewalt has thumb flip levers on both sides of the table handle to lock out the detent (for righties and lefties I guess) however it's right there at your thumb tip whenever your adjusting and decide you don't want to be locked in at the detent position.

The compound part of the equation (all that stuff piled up on top of the machine) is probably excellent, it's certainly fun to play with, knobs to twist and neat big scales, locks to stop you at places you might want to stop at. Frankly I don't use the tilt mechanism much, I buy compound saws because you usually get a better machine. now be honest with yourself, how often do you actually "tilt" your saw? (because that seems to be where all the money went in this model).

Dust control: Festools big (usually) advantage over everything else out there - Well, today's experiment resulted in exactly the same pile of sawdust on, around, and under the saw that I would expect from my Dewalt (Kapex hooked up to a CT22).

Smooth cuts? no detectable difference from my Dewalt (which is still on it's original blade despite having been fairly abused (aluminum extrusions etc)

Quiet? yes I think it probably is quieter than my dewalt, soft start is nice (Dewalt tends to bang on when you hit the trigger)

Control quirks? That thing with the trigger and button, frankly I read about concerns about it on here, but in my own use (Maybe because I've been using a TS55 a lot), I simply was not aware of it, I didn't have to pause and remember to push this - then pull that, simply did what came naturally and the saw started.

Conclusion, Festool has made a magnificent effort and produced a truly fine half a machine - there's nothing that comes close to competing with it from the blade shaft up. unfortunately everything below the blade shaft is cheap, unergonomic, poorly thought out, and badly made. I would not be surprised to discover that they made a top-down design approach and simply ran out of time, money, and enthusiasm before they got to that table and it's truly inferior controls.

no, I'm not knocking Festool out of habit, frankly I couldn't run my business without them, I literally rely on their fine products to earn my living. I'd love to expand my collection and will as soon as I discover (or they produce) more tools that will make my life easier.

But they've got to be better.

Not just more expensive, not hyped up by announcing in advance when they will be available. just make a better tool. (this ain't it).

 

[Michael Kellough]

Thanks Steve for a fair and square review.

You said,

"I also (because square corners in houses are never actually square) often needed to clamp just to one side of the detent - an annoying process with the Kapex since there is no way to lock out the detent, when you get close it'll jerk over and drop in - My humble Dewalt has thumb flip levers on both sides of the table handle to lock out the detent (for righties and lefties I guess) however it's right there at your thumb tip whenever your adjusting and decide you don't want to be locked in at the detent position."

Being able to lock the miter at +or- 1/2 degree (or less) from a common angle detent is a critical feature. I don't recall reading this anywhere else. If the Kapex isn't designed to do this is there a work around?

 

[Steve Jones]

Michael,

In fairness to the Kapex, you can hold the detent lever down while moving the table, I just much prefer being able to simply turn it off (or lock it out) for those times when I don't want it. In addition yesterday it was harder to keep the detent lever pressed because I discovered I can eliminate the grinding by holding the clamp release lever (the miter table control) in the half-way position - the cam is extended enough in this position to rotate the table easily with no grinding.

 

[Brice Burrell]

Michael, the Kapex can be consistently locked to 1/4 degree out of a detent (that info is in my review).

Steve, its not fair to "review" a tool that isn't working correctly or only after making 12 cuts with it.

 

[Michael Kellough]

Michael,

In fairness to the Kapex, you can hold the detent lever down while moving the table, I just much prefer being able to simply turn it off (or lock it out) for those times when I don't want it. In addition yesterday it was harder to keep the detent lever pressed because I discovered I can eliminate the grinding by holding the clamp release lever (the miter table control) in the half-way position - the cam is extended enough in this position to rotate the table easily with no grinding.

Steve, maybe you could modify your previous post to clarify this issue in context?
It sounds much worse than it actually is there.

 

[Michael Kellough]

Michael, the Kapex can be consistently locked to 1/4 degree out of a detent (that info is in my review).

Steve, its not fair to "review" a tool that isn't working correctly or only after making 12 cuts with it.

Thanks Brice, I admit I only skimmed your review since I'm not ready to buy.

 

[Warrior]

I do not know what Steve is refering to there. I find that the miter can be locked directly next to a detent with no problems.  You have to push the detent override as you lock the miter setting. Its not that complicated of a manuever.

I do however wish that the miter adjustment was not so stiff. My makita swung back and forth like silk. The Kapex takes a bit more effort.

 

[Hergy]

After reading through this entire thread and also the other post about the grinding/scraping when changing the miter, I decided I had to go to my one and only dealer in our fair city to actually touch the "wonder machine". I currently have a De Walt miter saw, which quite frankly, I don't use that often anymore, but, in my quest to spend more money to jump start the economy, I felt it was my duty as an American to thoroughly check out the Kapex.

Arriving at my friendly dealer, I looked in the area reserved for Festool, but no Kapex was to be seen. "Probably sold out" I say to myself because, after all, it is July 16 and the Kapex came out on July 1st. I asked the salesman "where's the Kapex?"and he says " we have one but it's still in the box in the backroom". Hmmm, one still in the box???????????????wow!!!! To say I expected more would be an understatement. Anyway, he asked if I would like to see it and I said  "of course". I helped him open the box and unpack the machine which is now setting on top of the carton it came in. Since the owners of this store and the salesman know me quite well, they will allow me to "handle the merchandise" like it's my own. So, we start turning all the little green knobs and after kind of figuring out most of the adjustments, the only one we couldn't handle was releasing the miter lock. I wanted to see if the scraping problem was present on this machine. The other salesman was reading the manual trying to find out how to release this thing. So, here's 3 of us standing there and twisting, pulling, pushing, much like 3 chimps trying to put a 1000 piece puzzle together. They even turned the machine upside down looking for, perhaps a shipping bolt or something to prevent movement. Well, the salemen had to go wait on other customers so I had a chance to play with the saw by myself. I finally concluded that maybe if I lifted up on the miter handle maybe this would do it. Voila! I was afraid earlier to apply too much force because with the saw just sitting on the cardboard container, the whole saw was lifting up. With this major obstacle out of the way, now I could get down to business.

Most liked features:
The laser was excellent and was proved spot on with a board that I cut later.
The bevel adjustment on the right hand rod was very smooth and made bevel angle adjustments a snap.
I cut a few boards and was impressed how relatively quiet and effortlessly the cuts were made.
Glides effortlessly on the rails.

Other observations:
Dust collection was only so-so, but in fairness it was hooked up with the small hose to a CT33, Still more dust than I expected.
I wish the miter angle was as smooth and effortless to change as the bevel angle. Changing miter angle VERY stiff. Much stiffer than my DeWalt which is all I have to compare to. Three of us tried lifting, pushing etc. to release the miter handle lock. All 3 of us were afraid to use too much force. Does it really have to be this stiff?
No grinding or scraping was noticed when changing miter angle as other posters have commented.
Can't comment on the accuracy of any other settings due to the circumstances.

I still have my $1300 in my pocket. The salesman said they would be setting up the saw on the designated MFT. I told them I would return when we could put the saw through its' paces under better conditions.

 

[Steve Jones]

To everyone leaping to the defense of their beloved Kapex...

Lets see:
"Steve, its not fair to "review" a tool that isn't working correctly or only after making 12 cuts with it. "
> If a tool is supplied by festool for customer evaluation, it's gonna get evaluated the way they shipped it.
>And if I'd made 120 or 1200 cuts the miter table controls would still be cheap and badly designed.

"Kapex can be consistently locked to 1/4 degree out of a detent"
> Sure it can, it's just a juggling act to do it, because it lacks a detent lock out.

"You have to push the detent override as you lock the miter setting"
> there IS no detent override, you are referring  to the detent release - the lack of a detent override is my point - go try a cheap Dewalt in Home Depot, you'll find TWO controls for the detents, one releases it like the Kapex, the other one locks it out, turns it off so you don't have to hold or press anything while comfortably and easily gliding the free and smooth miter table from one side to the other.

"Steve, maybe you could modify your previous post to clarify this issue in context?"
my point again is that the machine lacks the detent override, a saw claiming to be the best available tool should not lack useful features found in other comparable machines, certainly not ones found in models selling for about 1/4 of the price! since nothing has changed, i have no changes to make to my comments.

Festool needs to fix their design, they claim (and usually do) sell the best available tool for a particular job, frankly what they need to is much more than to repair or replace the cheap stamped miter lock plate, they need to keep all the good stuff (on reflection I have expanded my opinion of the good parts, actually everything above the pivot pin on the tilt machanism is great - everything below that point is so far below Festools standards that it should be replaced - put on a well designed, adjustable miter lock, and while your at it, add a micro adjust feature (simply mount the lock mechanism on a screw so you can lock and adjust to fractions of a degree by turning a knob at the side of the table control extension) this would not have to be complicated to include the detent stops, and simple version to micro adjust when between detents would be fine.

Now THAT saw would be the world beater that the Kapex should be.

Before anyone fires off more knee jerk reactions, read carefully ALL the words in my posts, then read them again until you fully understand exactly what I said, then react and respond if you still feel the need.

 

[rnt80]

Played with a Kapex myself today, actually I had to put up crown molding in one room as part of a larger cabinet job. Someone kindly offered to loan me his Kapex for the job.

So I made maybe 12 cuts with the wonder machine......

First maybe I should point out that I did not receive a free kapex for this review.

My own cheap little miter saw is from Dewalt, a company I'm not particularly a fan of, since they make their share of junk tools, but I will use it for comparison.

first reaction: There's that nasty grinding noise and excessive drag while trying to adjust the miter, actually the miter lock does not work very well because it's a cheaply made piece of stamped steel that in it's relaxed state grips the outer edge of the gauge, press the release lever and an overcenter cam pushes it down slightly to release it's grip on the gauge - something I would expect to find on a tool with "chicago" in it's name (not a comment on that probably fine city, it's a common brand under which the worst examples of Chinese manufacturing technology are sold).

so I checked my own cheap Dewalt when I got back to the shop, nice brake system which clamps to a machined face on the outer face of the cast table itself (not a bolted on thin piece of sheet metal) - even more amazing is that should the dewalt ever get too loose or too tight (and grind) the tension is adjustable.

I also (because square corners in houses are never actually square) often needed to clamp just to one side of the detent - an annoying process with the Kapex since there is no way to lock out the detent, when you get close it'll jerk over and drop in - My humble Dewalt has thumb flip levers on both sides of the table handle to lock out the detent (for righties and lefties I guess) however it's right there at your thumb tip whenever your adjusting and decide you don't want to be locked in at the detent position.

The compound part of the equation (all that stuff piled up on top of the machine) is probably excellent, it's certainly fun to play with, knobs to twist and neat big scales, locks to stop you at places you might want to stop at. Frankly I don't use the tilt mechanism much, I buy compound saws because you usually get a better machine. now be honest with yourself, how often do you actually "tilt" your saw? (because that seems to be where all the money went in this model).

Dust control: Festools big (usually) advantage over everything else out there - Well, today's experiment resulted in exactly the same pile of sawdust on, around, and under the saw that I would expect from my Dewalt (Kapex hooked up to a CT22).

Smooth cuts? no detectable difference from my Dewalt (which is still on it's original blade despite having been fairly abused (aluminum extrusions etc)

Quiet? yes I think it probably is quieter than my dewalt, soft start is nice (Dewalt tends to bang on when you hit the trigger)

Control quirks? That thing with the trigger and button, frankly I read about concerns about it on here, but in my own use (Maybe because I've been using a TS55 a lot), I simply was not aware of it, I didn't have to pause and remember to push this - then pull that, simply did what came naturally and the saw started.

Conclusion, Festool has made a magnificent effort and produced a truly fine half a machine - there's nothing that comes close to competing with it from the blade shaft up. unfortunately everything below the blade shaft is cheap, unergonomic, poorly thought out, and badly made. I would not be surprised to discover that they made a top-down design approach and simply ran out of time, money, and enthusiasm before they got to that table and it's truly inferior controls.
no, I'm not knocking Festool out of habit, frankly I couldn't run my business without them, I literally rely on their fine products to earn my living. I'd love to expand my collection and will as soon as I discover (or they produce) more tools that will make my life easier.

But they've got to be better.

Not just more expensive, not hyped up by announcing in advance when they will be available. just make a better tool. (this ain't it).

I could not agree with this more.  This was my exact impression when I got my first peek at the saw at a local Rockler.  The bottom half looked and felt cheap.  I'm used to Festool products having features that blow away the competition.  The top half of the tool does that, the bottom half, not even close.  I had the 12" Bosch before I picked up my Kapex and it had a lot of small but very useful features that could have been included in the Kapex but for whatever reason weren't (pull out extensions, adjustable stops, graduated markings on the fence, more friendly miter adjustment).  I'm not an engineer so I don't know how they would make this happen but one of these days someone, and I hope it's Festool, will make a saw that has a micro adjust feature on the miter scale similar to what they have on the bevel.  It's like Steve said, it's almost as though they ran out of time, money and interest. 

 

[MiterMaster]

....I had the 12" Bosch before I picked up my Kapex and it had a lot of small but very useful features that could have been included in the Kapex but for whatever reason weren't (pull out extensions, adjustable stops, graduated markings on the fence, more friendly miter adjustment).....

Well, lets not forget that a lot of 1st released tools have problems that seem to slip through the cracks.  When the Bosch 12" SCMS came out, it too had issues.  I went through 3 of them until I got a decent one.  They had issues with blade deflection, I believe it was due to an arbor issue, or something like that?

It's not just Festool, lots of other companies later find quirks after a tool has been released that need to be addressed and corrected.  I know our dealers & Festool will take care of our issues and make things right - no question about that, they stand behind their product better than any other company I have dealt with. 

Mike

 

[greg mann]

I would like to say I haven't had a problem with the locking spring. I would like to say it, but it wouldn't be true. I did some checking with a surface plate and indicator, loosened and tightened the pivot point and concluded that Festool just didn't design in enough clearance for the unlocked state. It appears that in an effort to improve clamping force they created a new problem. Without trying to sound like this is some kind of nationalistic defect, I think German engineering sometimes tries to be too precise, especially when it comes to free state running clearances. That is my experience elsewhere with German designed high-end products. We are all crazy in our own particular ways so none of us should gloat.

In my case, I decided to grind the contact portion of the plate. I have the advantage of access to a surface grinder so I can control what comes off. In my measuring I also found about .002" twist which was also taking up clearance so I corrected that as well. I removed .0045" from the surface and it works perfectly. I am not discounting the possibility that binding could re-occur as I aimed for what I consider minimum clearance. I joked with my dealer that I will slowly remove what is necessary and that if I take too much I will be asking him to get me another plate. So far, so good. For me, this was easier and more reliable than just asking for another plate and not knowing whether it would solve the problem. It also gave me an opportunity to test my own opinions about what the true nature of the problem is, which led me to the conclusion that too little clearance was allotted. I will be the first to agree that my solution is hardly useful for others and I understand the frustrations that have been expressed.

I have some other observations I would like to share about the tool comparing it to a Bosch 10 inch slider. I found that the vibration of the Bosch would make it almost impossible to keep my stock from creeping along the fence. In fact, I sometimes would let the vibration 'aid' me in moving the stock just slightly when I needed to shave a little off a previous cut. The problem was that the stock would still try to keep on moving unless I kept a death grip on it. With the Kapex there is virtually no vibration and the stock doesn't seem to drift with a mind of its own. I find this makes it much easier to be precise.

Also, I love the bevel capabilities. Eiji mentioned this too, and I agree with him that I am much more likely to use the bevel function when it would be easier to do than trying to hold the workpiece upright against the fence, knowing that the bevel can be just as accurate as using the miter. While others feel dust collection is not as good as they had hoped I am getting far better results than my Bosch. YMMV.

I am okay with the saw not having sliding extensions built in. My Bosch left-side extension is not coplaner with the table anyway, so that is a continuing source of error. This is not unique to my saw as I have heard many others complain about it. This flaw alone makes it impossble to do accurate work on upright miter cuts that need to match from both sides of the saw. Even for me, with a whole machine shop at my disposal, this is not an easily fixable problem. I could do it but the saw is going to Habitat for Humanity either way. I like the Kapex crown stop attachment concept and am looking forward to whatever other attachments might be in the works, and will withold judgement on the saws base design for awhile. I do like the compact nature of the whole package. It takes up very little space compared to any other saw with the same capacities and any built in features, like sliding extensions, would add weight and subtract from the compactness. I also think that before long we will see homemade applications using the Vs, similar to what Sawhelper is doing. This may sound stupid but I find the V-groove on the Kapex MFT to be a great place to leave an extra pencil.  :

In summary, I am disappointed that so many of us have experienced the miter clamp problems that we have. It was easily correctable for me so I guess I am lucky. When all is said and done I am sure Festool will make it right for everyone that can exersize a little patience and I don't think it is necessary to wait for 2.0. And yes, I know patience can be a hard commodity to come by, especially for anyone trying to make a living with the saw.