Plumbing issue

[Wooden Skye]

So I get home from work this afternoon and I get to deal with a toilet issue.  We have a dual flush toilet, when I flushed the toilet, the water wouldn't drain like usual, and the tank wouldn't refill.  I took off the braided water line from the valve to the tank, and no water came out at the valve.  With the temperatures being so cold, I am guessing the line is frozen.  The copper pipe comes up from the unfinished basement along the outside wall of the house.  I am going to get pipe insulation tomorrow to avoid any potential issues in the future.

Could my issue be anything else?

Thanks

 

[tjbnwi]

Frozen pipe.

A frozen pipe will never leak---when it thaws it could be an issue. Wouldn't be the first split copper pipe I've seen.

Tom

 

[Wooden Skye]

Thanks Tom.  I hate old houses. 

 

[land_kel]

Any way of getting some heat in that crawl space to slowly un thaw that line. Is it copper? With the new plastic "PEX" it may not crack so if the existing is split, maybe replace it with the pex.

 

[WarnerConstCo.]

Thanks Tom.  I hate old houses.

It's not the houses fault the water line is in an outside wall.

 

[Wooden Skye]

I spent some time with a hair dryer going along the copper line that I could get to.  The line also goes out into the unheated garage, but those pipes were wrapped with foil wrapped insulation.  I think the 8" block wall is where my issue is and I can't get access.

 

[Wooden Skye]

Thanks Tom.  I hate old houses.

It's not the houses fault the water line is in an outside wall.

I know, it is a product of who added the bathroom along the outside wall before we moved in.  Unfortunately there is nothing I can do about that, unless I tear out the entire back of the house, expand the footprint, rebuild and insulate.  Got a spare $75,000 laying around?

 

[tjbnwi]

Any chance you can relocate the feed through the floor?

Tom

 

[rizzoa13]

Probably know this but leave open ALL faucets/supplies that arent working so that pressure doesn't buildup and split the pipe.

Also if you think your issue is inside the 8" block wall then you could cut the pipe back say a foot on both sides of the wall. Chisel out a larger diameter opening in he block so that you can slide a new piece of copper that is already wrapped through the block. Leave yourself enough space on each end to solder in new joints and then wrap everything up. Just my 2 rubles.

Edit: I just saw your in NJ too. It doesn't get cold enough here to blow up plumbing in an exterior wall as long as there isn't a draft hitting it so it must be the basement. A draft across a pipe can make it freeze quickly so make sure your theres nowhere that is happening.

 

[Wooden Skye]

Any chance you can relocate the feed through the floor?

Tom

Unfortunately I don't think I am able to.  If I tried to go off the lines to the upstairs, I would not even be in the bathroom.  The hot and cold for the faucet work fine, and are about 8" away from the copper line for the toilet.  The toilet line is branched off the cold line for the faucet. 

I guess I need to cross my fingers that as the temperature starts to rise tomorrow nothing cracks and I can do my best to insulate the best I can.

 

[rizzoa13]

Wait so the cold water line for the faucet works fine? And the toilet is fed from that line inside the walls of the bathroom not tee'ed off inside the basement?

 

[Wooden Skye]

Probably know this but leave open ALL faucets/supplies that arent working so that pressure doesn't buildup and split the pipe.

Also if you think your issue is inside the 8" block wall then you could cut the pipe back say a foot on both sides of the wall. Chisel out a larger diameter opening in he block so that you can slide a new piece of copper that is already wrapped through the block. Leave yourself enough space on each end to solder in new joints and then wrap everything up. Just my 2 rubles.

The line and valve is open. That is a good thought, but according to the misses, probably above my pay grade.  If this keeps happening, I will need to take this approach. 

Yes the cold line for the faucet works fine.  The branch off/tee is in the basement, then all 3 lines go through the block wall into the unheated garage, then up through the floor into the bathroom.

On Sunday it was 60 degrees, yesterday and today have been around 15 degrees and with the windchill below zero. 

 

[tjbnwi]

Probably know this but leave open ALL faucets/supplies that arent working so that pressure doesn't buildup and split the pipe.

Also if you think your issue is inside the 8" block wall then you could cut the pipe back say a foot on both sides of the wall. Chisel out a larger diameter opening in he block so that you can slide a new piece of copper that is already wrapped through the block. Leave yourself enough space on each end to solder in new joints and then wrap everything up. Just my 2 rubles.

Edit: I just saw your in NJ too. It doesn't get cold enough here to blow up plumbing in an exterior wall as long as there isn't a draft hitting it so it must be the basement. A draft across a pipe can make it freeze quickly so make sure your theres nowhere that is happening.

It's not pressure that splits the pipe, it is the expansion of the water as it freezes.

Tom

 

[tjbnwi]

Probably know this but leave open ALL faucets/supplies that arent working so that pressure doesn't buildup and split the pipe.

Also if you think your issue is inside the 8" block wall then you could cut the pipe back say a foot on both sides of the wall. Chisel out a larger diameter opening in he block so that you can slide a new piece of copper that is already wrapped through the block. Leave yourself enough space on each end to solder in new joints and then wrap everything up. Just my 2 rubles.

The line and valve is open. That is a good thought, but according to the misses, probably above my pay grade.  If this keeps happening, I will need to take this approach. 

Yes the cold line for the faucet works fine.  The branch off/tee is in the basement, then all 3 lines go through the block wall into the unheated garage, then up through the floor into the bathroom.

On Sunday it was 60 degrees, yesterday and today have been around 15 degrees and with the windchill below zero.

If the valve is open make sure someone is home watching it. It would suck to have the pipe thaw with the valve open and no one home to catch the water flow.

You can still use the bathroom, fill a bucket with water, when you're done dump a gallon of water in the bowl. It will act as if you flushed the toilet.

Tom

 

[rizzoa13]

Yes expansion and nowhere for it to go. Thank you Cpt. Semantics

 

[Wooden Skye]

Probably know this but leave open ALL faucets/supplies that arent working so that pressure doesn't buildup and split the pipe.

Also if you think your issue is inside the 8" block wall then you could cut the pipe back say a foot on both sides of the wall. Chisel out a larger diameter opening in he block so that you can slide a new piece of copper that is already wrapped through the block. Leave yourself enough space on each end to solder in new joints and then wrap everything up. Just my 2 rubles.

The line and valve is open. That is a good thought, but according to the misses, probably above my pay grade.  If this keeps happening, I will need to take this approach. 

Yes the cold line for the faucet works fine.  The branch off/tee is in the basement, then all 3 lines go through the block wall into the unheated garage, then up through the floor into the bathroom.

On Sunday it was 60 degrees, yesterday and today have been around 15 degrees and with the windchill below zero.

If the valve is open make sure someone is home watching it. It would suck to have the pipe thaw with the valve open and no one home to catch the water flow.

You can still use the bathroom, fill a bucket with water, when you're done dump a gallon of water in the bowl. It will act as if you flushed the toilet.

Tom

I think I misspoke, the valve is open, but the braided line is connected at the valve and to the tank.  So if it thawed, the tank should fill like normal.

 

[tjbnwi]

Yes expansion and nowhere for it to go. Thank you Cpt. Semantics

It has someplace to go- through the pipe. Will happen whether the pipe is under pressure or not.

Tom

 

[tjbnwi]

Probably know this but leave open ALL faucets/supplies that arent working so that pressure doesn't buildup and split the pipe.

Also if you think your issue is inside the 8" block wall then you could cut the pipe back say a foot on both sides of the wall. Chisel out a larger diameter opening in he block so that you can slide a new piece of copper that is already wrapped through the block. Leave yourself enough space on each end to solder in new joints and then wrap everything up. Just my 2 rubles.

The line and valve is open. That is a good thought, but according to the misses, probably above my pay grade.  If this keeps happening, I will need to take this approach. 

Yes the cold line for the faucet works fine.  The branch off/tee is in the basement, then all 3 lines go through the block wall into the unheated garage, then up through the floor into the bathroom.

On Sunday it was 60 degrees, yesterday and today have been around 15 degrees and with the windchill below zero.

If the valve is open make sure someone is home watching it. It would suck to have the pipe thaw with the valve open and no one home to catch the water flow.

You can still use the bathroom, fill a bucket with water, when you're done dump a gallon of water in the bowl. It will act as if you flushed the toilet.

Tom

I think I misspoke, the valve is open, but the braided line is connected at the valve and to the tank.  So if it thawed, the tank should fill like normal.

Got it.

Tom

 

[RKA]

Sounds like justification for that new garage heater!  [wink]. I don't think the wall is your problem. Those other lines running into the garage will be next unless you put a heat source in there (even parking a warm engine will help).  Ultimately you've got to keep the water line in conditioned spaces or the warm side of insulated cavities.  As a stop gap, get a heat source in the garage and if you've been thinking about insulating, do it.

 

[Wooden Skye]

Sounds like justification for that new garage heater!  [wink]. I don't think the wall is your problem. Those other lines running into the garage will be next unless you put a heat source in there (even parking a warm engine will help).  Ultimately you've got to keep the water line in conditioned spaces or the warm side of insulated cavities.  As a stop gap, get a heat source in the garage and if you've been thinking about insulating, do it.

I am going to put pipe insulation around all the pipes I can get to in the basement, then I will go to the garage and do the same thing there.  Plus I am going to get some regular insulation, and hopefully can insulate in the ceiling joists of the garage.  I have a small heater which I will turn on for a bit.