Plyboo cabinet construction advise

[Dusty.House]

Hi all, I am planning to build some Overland truck cabinets from 1/2" Plyboo. The end result would look something like this:

[attachimg=3]

I wanted to get some feedback on how to build the cabinets. The easiest option, which appears to be used in that photo is a simple 90-degree butt joint with dominos.

[attachimg=1]

I am wondering if there's any value in a lap joint, with dominos.

[attachimg=2]

The rear of the cabinet will be made from a much thinner material, 1/4" or less with a formica laminate, that I will recess into that back:

[attachimg=4]

Thanks!

Ben

 

[Packard]

What advantage do you imagine the half-lap will offer?  I cannot think of any.

How well does the bamboo take glue?

I looked into that stuff a long time ago and it was several times the expense of the alternatives.  Why that stuff?

As for the back, if you are attaching to the interior of the truck or van, you will not be depending on the back for any structure.  The wall of the truck provides that.  I would imagine keeping the weight low would be a consideration.

They make both real veneer and vinyl on aluminum sheets.  You can attach that directly to the truck wall.  It will be the lightest option available.

Mostly, I hear about bamboo being used for flooring.  I know it is a hard wearing surface.  Is it heavier or lighter than Baltic birch?
https://www.google.com/search?q=veneer laminated on aluminum&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&client=firefox-b-1-m

 

[Dusty.House]

Thanks! Yeah I can't disagree with your point about the half-lap.

Yes it is expensive, fortunately the space isn't too large so it's not crazy. When you add up the cost of good 1/2" plywood, laminate, and time and there's not a lot in it. It needs to be plywood to cope with humidity changes, so no MDF or chipboard.

Plus it's the only look my wife immediately agreed on

For the back, yes I agree about the structural point, my main consideration is look and ensuring there's no gap at the bottom so things can fall behind the cabinet.

 

[Packard]

An interesting fact I read about bamboo.  They do not stain bamboo to give it the darker colors.  They roast it.  They make a big deal over the fact that roasting the bamboo means the color goes all the way through.  Clearly, that is an advantage.

Plus bamboo is a very hard surface.  Harder than maple.

What they overlook, is that the roasting process both softens and weakens the bamboo.  The darker the color (from longer roasting) the weaker and softer it gets. 

I have not seen any data on how soft it gets, but if the lighter color works for you (and your wife), then there is an advantage going with that. 

I like Confirmat screws on sides of cabinets where they will not show.  They are extremely strong and can be removed and replaced several times.  So dry fitting is a breeze, especially since no clamping is required. 

There are lots of YouTube tests online of the relative strengths of various fastening systems.  Almost all of these tests are flawed as they only test one sample of each.  A minimum of 10 samples would be needed to convince me of the superiority of any system.

Years ago, I found online tests run by a kitchen manufactures association (KD kitchen cabinets) and also one by the flat-pack furniture industry association (think “Ikea”).

These tests were performed by outside testing laboratories.  Those tests a almost certainly still out in the google wilderness somewhere. 

I was surprised to learn that dado joints offered almost no racking strength.  Screws were slightly better.  Those 1/4 turn assembly dowels fared poorly too.

They did not test dominoes as dominoes are not suited for high volume production.

Their conclusion was that dowels and confirmats were the clear strength leaders.  Dowels had the advantage of some sophisticated automated systems for assembly.  Confirmats offered more racking strength and could be broken down and reasssmbled several times.

I settled on dowels and confirmats as a result. 

It was noted that the K.D. furniture people needed racking strength (to avoid the wobble), where cabinets did not (they had the wall as part of their structure).

I think dowels, dominoes and confirmats are fine.  Using the right glue would be important.

Polyurethane glue (Gorilla glue) retains some flexibility and that might be an advantage in an environment where there might be a lot of flexing. 

I would also look at marine cabinet construction.  They have to live with many of the same stresses as a camper.

Good luck.  (I have too much time on my hands so I tend to long posts). [eek]

 

[mattgam]

[member=67145]Dusty.Tools[/member] where would a person go to get plyboo? 

 

[Packard]

They have a list of their dealers.

The closest to me is one state over.  About 125 miles— a little over 2 hours drive.  About $43.00 worth of gas (round trip).
https://www.plyboo.com/

 

[Vtshopdog]

I’ve used 3/4 stranded bamboo ply for a couple projects.  It wasn’t the Plyboo brand but similar construction with core strands at 90 degrees to the faces, pretty much the same stuff. It’s been 6-8 years since I bought any and remember it being wicked expensive then, can’t imagine what it costs now.

Some random thoughts:

It cuts and machines well, doesn’t splinter or tear out much.
Glues up better than plywood.
I never tried staining, only clear finish.  It’s very hard and not porous at all, would not be surprised if staining didn’t look good.
Cutting will dull your blades quickly

It’s cool looking stuff but the “end grain” edges can get really busy looking in some joints, particularly when your exposed edge is perpendicular to the face strands.  I like gluing a strip of hardwood to face these edges.  Reddish toned woods like Sapele and Lacewood look really good in this application.

 

[Dusty.House]

[member=67145]Dusty.Tools[/member] where would a person go to get plyboo?

I believe it comes from California, I found a company in WA who uses it for commercial Overland projects, they are selling me 5-6 sheets.

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[Dusty.House]

I’ve used 3/4 stranded bamboo ply for a couple projects.  It wasn’t the Plyboo brand but similar construction with core strands at 90 degrees to the faces, pretty much the same stuff. It’s been 6-8 years since I bought any and remember it being wicked expensive then, can’t imagine what it costs now.

Some random thoughts:

It cuts and machines well, doesn’t splinter or tear out much.
Glues up better than plywood.
I never tried staining, only clear finish.  It’s very hard and not porous at all, would not be surprised if staining didn’t look good.
Cutting will dull your blades quickly

It’s cool looking stuff but the “end grain” edges can get really busy looking in some joints, particularly when your exposed edge is perpendicular to the face strands.  I like gluing a strip of hardwood to face these edges.  Reddish toned woods like Sapele and Lacewood look really good in this application.

Thanks, good tips, appreciate it!

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[Dusty.House]

An interesting fact I read about bamboo.  They do not stain bamboo to give it the darker colors.  They roast it.  They make a big deal over the fact that roasting the bamboo means the color goes all the way through.  Clearly, that is an advantage.

Plus bamboo is a very hard surface.  Harder than maple.

What they overlook, is that the roasting process both softens and weakens the bamboo.  The darker the color (from longer roasting) the weaker and softer it gets. 

I have not seen any data on how soft it gets, but if the lighter color works for you (and your wife), then there is an advantage going with that. 

I like Confirmat screws on sides of cabinets where they will not show.  They are extremely strong and can be removed and replaced several times.  So dry fitting is a breeze, especially since no clamping is required. 

There are lots of YouTube tests online of the relative strengths of various fastening systems.  Almost all of these tests are flawed as they only test one sample of each.  A minimum of 10 samples would be needed to convince me of the superiority of any system.

Years ago, I found online tests run by a kitchen manufactures association (KD kitchen cabinets) and also one by the flat-pack furniture industry association (think “Ikea”).

These tests were performed by outside testing laboratories.  Those tests a almost certainly still out in the google wilderness somewhere. 

I was surprised to learn that dado joints offered almost no racking strength.  Screws were slightly better.  Those 1/4 turn assembly dowels fared poorly too.

They did not test dominoes as dominoes are not suited for high volume production.

Their conclusion was that dowels and confirmats were the clear strength leaders.  Dowels had the advantage of some sophisticated automated systems for assembly.  Confirmats offered more racking strength and could be broken down and reasssmbled several times.

I settled on dowels and confirmats as a result. 

It was noted that the K.D. furniture people needed racking strength (to avoid the wobble), where cabinets did not (they had the wall as part of their structure).

I think dowels, dominoes and confirmats are fine.  Using the right glue would be important.

Polyurethane glue (Gorilla glue) retains some flexibility and that might be an advantage in an environment where there might be a lot of flexing. 

I would also look at marine cabinet construction.  They have to live with many of the same stresses as a camper.

Good luck.  (I have too much time on my hands so I tend to long posts). [eek]

Thank you, really appreciate this input! I’m all for using the easiest and quickest option.

Is the combination of dowels and confirmats critical or could you double up on confirmats?

I’ve used dowels before and never perfected the alignment. I’m sure I will figure it out if required.

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[Crazyraceguy]

We did a fairly big run of cabinets with PlyBoo several years ago. From what I remember, the motivating factor in the choice was "environmental" since it's a renewable resource, along with the look of the material itself. We used two different colors, the basic original and the "roasted" version. I think they called it carbonized? something like that.
It's a bit splintery, be sure to round-over the edges. Also be careful with your hands.
The hardness makes it difficult to sand, though it takes finish well.
The main thing is, don't even think about trying to put 18ga brad nails through it. They will crumble and bounce, right at the surface. You can nail into it, if the nail goes through something else first. If you build hardwood drawers, for example, you could tack the drawer front on from the inside, since the nail goes through the other wood first. If the nail starts from the PlyBoo side, no way.

 

[Packard]

Is the combination of dowels and confirmats critical or could you double up on confirmats?

I’ve used dowels before and never perfected the alignment. I’m sure I will figure it out if required.

There are a couple of reasons I use the confirmats.  The primary reason is it eliminates the need for bar clamps.  The second reason is, if clamping diagonally to square things up, there are no other clamps to get in the way.

My process is this:

I cut the boards to size and add slot for back board
I assemble the box using picture framers’ corner clamps (8 clamps) on all four corners front and back. 
I drill for the confirmats.  For upper cabinets 2 screws per corner.  For Lower cabinets three screws per joint.
I check for square and clamp diagonally if required.
Note:  When I am using the corner clamps I have never had to clamp diagonally.  You can buy corner clamps from Amazon for about $3.00 each.
For more robust construction, I through drill for dowels.  Alignment is 100% guaranteed because you are drilling holes for both pieces at the same time.  Apply glue and tap dowels into the hole.  I drill deep enough that I don’t have to trim the dowels.

Note:  With plywood, particle board and MDF (the only materials that were tested by the labs) use no fastener within 2” of the end of the board.  You need enough material on either side of the fastener to assure that the boards do not split open.  I don’t know if that applies to bamboo boards.

I allow the glue to set before moving. 

On projects where I will be finishing after assembly, I will glue the joint as well as the dowels.  I am of the opinion that glue will not be very effective on painted or clear coated surfaces.

I am a dowel guy.  I probably have 5 or 6 different dowel jigs. For sheet goods, I use a CMT jig.  It is not very versatile, but it is efficient for sheet goods.

More versatile, and nearly as efficient is a jig I ordered from the UK.  I forget the name of the manufacturer.  I will find it when I get home.

Milescraft makes a “JointMate” jig. It works well and it is very inexpensive.  It looks and feels cheap, but it is well designed and seems durable enough.  It has an adjustable fence so you can use different spacing for different thicknesses of material.  Mine is set for Imperial (fractional) sized dowels.  They might make one for metric sizes.

Wolf craft makes a nearly identical piece.  I will assume it will perform about as well. 

 

[Michael Kellough]

Lee Vally’s Veritas is working on dowel jig.

 

[Peter Kelly]

They have a list of their dealers.

The closest to me is one state over.  About 125 miles— a little over 2 hours drive.  About $43.00 worth of gas (round trip).
https://www.plyboo.com/

Roberts has it.https://www.roberts-plywood.com/bamboo.html

 

[Packard]

Lee Vally’s Veritas is working on dowel jig.

I could not find any videos.  The jig is listed as “in stock”.

My go to jig for anything other that cabinet boxes, is “Joint Genie”.  I ordered mine through Amazon.  I don’t think it is still available from Amazon though.  As I recall I ordered some parts directly from Joint Genie (UK) and the shipped the same day.  It arrived in less than one week.  This was probably back in 2016 or 2017.

I do have a beef with their videos.  Couldn’t they have used a higher res camera?  Everything looks soft.


Note:  I just googled their website and it seems they have gone out of business.  At least no one is at home.  Www.joint-genie.co.UK.

 

[Dusty.House]

Thank you [mention]Packard [/mention] this is exceptionally helpful! Takes the guessing out of this part of my project!

In terms of spacing. What would you do for a 30” deep cabinet? A Comfirmati 2” from either end and two dowels equal distant between them?

There’s a Powertec jig that looks promising that I just brought on Amazon. I got two and I will modify one of them to take a 3.5mm drill bit for a Snappy Tools Conformant drill bit.

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[Packard]

On base cabinets I use 3 confirmats, the two you mention and one in the middle.  If your plywood has a slight bow in it, the center Confirmat will pull it tight.  I use two dowels between the confirmats.

For upper cabinets, I use two confirmats plus two dowels between them.

I might be over building, but adding more dowels takes almost no time at all, and buying dowels in bulk makes them very inexpensive.

The last time I bought dowels, I ordered 1,000 for $15.00 plus $11.00 shipping, or about 1-1/2 cents each.  So pretty cheap.  I keep them in a closed jar so that they don’t absorb moisture.

 

[Packard]

I would note that I am pretty much in the minority in that I like dowel construction. And in these forums I’m an outlier (if not a pariah).

I believe that dowel construction is used primarily in large, high volume production shops.  Smaller shops and hobbyists have engraved pocket hole construction and dominoes. 

I use dowels, pocket holes, biscuits, confirmats and recently I have tried all nail construction. I pick and choose according to what seems best or most expedient. 

For example, while I will use dowels to assemble most of the box of a cabinet, I will use pocket holes to assemble the face frame and to attach it to the box (if I can hide the pocket holes).  If I can’t hide the pocket holes, I will use biscuits.  I will also use biscuits for attaching corner braces.

After I demoed (and the demo fought me tooth and nail) a site-built 1950s era vanity in my bathroom that used hammer driven nails exclusively (and no glue), I tried building a cabinet with nails and glue only.

It was a shallow cabinet (8” deep) and wall mounted, but nonetheless if felt very sturdy.  I might find occasion to use glue and nails to attach a face frame to a cabinet box (especially if it were a painted cabinet).

My point is, while I embrace dowels, many are probably shaking their heads at this. 

I don’t own a domino machine, but judging from the videos online, the domino construction is clearly faster than hidden dowels on wall cabinets.  But anything wider that cannot be banked off the edge with the built in stops, the domino efficiency edge is lost, and the CMT dowel jig is as fast or perhaps a bit faster. 

There are lots of options out there.  I suggested how I would approach this.  Domino popularity is growing.  I might get one.  But it would be one tool in my bag and I doubt I would rely on it for everything.

 

[Peter Kelly]

I believe it comes from California, I found a company in WA who uses it for commercial Overland projects, they are selling me 5-6 sheets.

20mm bamboo sheets & flooring materials all come from China as the large sized timber type "Moso" species the boards are made from just doesn't much exist outside of SE Asia. It's an extremely difficult plant to propagate it from seed since that particular variety flowers only once every 60 to 120 years, growing it by dividing existing plants doesn't work that well either.

 

[Packard]

I would warn anyone who was tempted to cultivate any form of bamboo at home:  Bamboo is one of the most invasive plants in the world.

A not-too-nearby neighbor is trying to sell his house that was overrun with bamboo.  Finally he hired a contractor with a backhoe to dig the all up.  Six months later the yard was overrun with bamboo again.
https://www.fallschurchva.gov/DocumentCenter/View/14150/2021-01-Bamboo-Flyer-FCHRT#:~:text=What%20is%20Bamboo%3F,aureosulcata%20(Yellow%20Groove%20Bamboo).

This pretty much sums it up:  If you have bamboo, please remove it before it spreads onto other adjacent properties….