Portable table saw w/SawStop

[b_m_hart]

nothing to do with pride, accidents are caused by stupidity, that's not a critism of anyone, it's a simple fact. I've had the odd accident myself in a lifetime of woodworking - in every single case, by definition, I was doing something stupid.

Even those close calls when I got close to being hurt in the shop, I was doing something I should not have been doing (or at least not that way)

If we keep trying to hard-wire safety into every tool, those tools willl get less usefull, you can't make a chisel safe and effective - it's a choice, you can't have both. the point is a chisel is perfectly safe if used correctly, can you imagine the safety features you have to add in order to make it safe against accidentally hurting yourself?

I have the greatest respect for Bob Swenson and his work, and everyone else who have kindly responded to my comments here, I respect your opinions, I just happen to disagree with them. If you manage to stick some part of yourself into a moving blade I'm sorry, I don't see that as anything BUT incompetent. 

As it happens, I find many situations when I remove the safety features from my tablesaw, when I do that I make a decision to accept the responsibilty to provide the extra safety requirements myself (like not sticking my hands where they can possibly enter the area of the sharp spinning bits). Now do ALL of you keep the safety guards on your tablesaws in place at all times, under all conditions, never take them off to cut a dado for example? of course not, you CAN'T cut a dado on a tablesaw with a splitter or riving knife in place, but under the logic of sawstop you should not be allowed to cut dados on a tablesaw (because you can't do it with the safety features in place).

My point is, be carefull what you wish for (and vote for with your dollars) you might end up with safe tools.

Heh, I'll remember that the next time someone cuts across two lanes of traffic from my blind spot and runs me into a guard rail.  Fortunately the air bags and seat belt are there to compensate for incompetence on my part.  I can tell you, however, that sliding to a halt from freeway speeds, while upside down, is an interesting experience.

Now, that may not be exactly what you had in mind, but look at it like this: are you incompetent because you can't see a defect in a piece of wood or invisible fault in the machine you're working with that could lead to a dangerous situation that would possibly otherwise be addressed by a piece of innocuous protective gear?  Clearly this is a "black and white" issue to you, which is fine.  I think everyone here respects that, but it is interesting to see that opinion - the notion that a single, flash-of-the-eye type mistake could cost someone a finger, or hand, or eye (or even worse, life), and you call it incompetence.

I don't think too many of the folks in this thread are advocating mandatory protective devices, simply stating that it would be nice if they were a bit more widespread than they are now, as well as being more affordable - so that they COULD vote with their dollars.

 

[turbogeezer]

I have a friend who does remodel and light construction work. Works solo or with one helper/partner. He uses a Ryobi portable table saw on his sites. (It's quite portable - fold up legs etc. Looks a lot like the Bosch 4000/4100)
We had talked about the SawStop at one point a couple of years ago, but I just recently found out they now have a contractor/jobsite model. I sent him the picture that heads up this thread, along with a link to the relevant SawStop site page.

Here's his interesting reply:

"you know, i had a close call with a close call just a few days ago . . . i was buzzing some boards and though my fingers were not nearly wacked off i realized with a mild start that i had just made a cut without thinking of where my fingers were in relation to the blade . . . . like those moments where you are absorbed in some thought while driving and then you suddenly realize that you are three blocks away from where you had your last recollection of being at the wheel . . . that you'd been driving without thinking of driving . . .

i took a moment to refocus, refocusing specifically on how dangerous that had been . . . and that for the sake of moving the project along i'd have to be sure to keep my head about me always when cutting a board. it did also make me want to know how the blade does react with a finger and how a finger reacts to the blade.

so i did a test that night . . . . with the machine running i created a situation that could give me a nick without doing more than that, and i let myself get nicked.

very informative. the blade makes contact with soft finger with a distinctive bang as if were a piece of wood . . . which makes sense but i didn't expect (in the same way that soft water might as well be concrete if you jump from off a high bridge). as helpful is the fact that it really hurts, far more than a slit with a pocket knife. i always strive to work safely, but the test gave a very tangible appreciation of the blade . . . something i never got in the junior high shop safety lecture.

i think of it like my own smallpox style inoculation for tablesaw disease. it completely changed my mental state when making cuts. if there where some practical way to incorporate it into shop class safety presentations . . . it would be worth more than anything that could possibly be said or shown on the topic . . . my hand instinctively gives a wide berth to the blade, it's not just a theoretical good idea anymore

but . . . why not just get the sawstop?

it is an acceptable saw, but it's not a true modern contractor saw. cut depth is limited (won't cut 4x4 lumber, or 2x4s on edge) which is a non-starter, and at 240 lbs it's 3 times the weight of my saw . . . it can't move easily from site to site or even within the site. however, if i had a stationary wood shop with employees i'd have one.

e "

I'm just tossing this out for the group to comment on.
- turbogeezer

 

[Warrior]

nothing to do with pride, accidents are caused by stupidity, that's not a critism of anyone, it's a simple fact. I've had the odd accident myself in a lifetime of woodworking - in every single case, by definition, I was doing something stupid.

Even those close calls when I got close to being hurt in the shop, I was doing something I should not have been doing (or at least not that way)

If we keep trying to hard-wire safety into every tool, those tools willl get less usefull, you can't make a chisel safe and effective - it's a choice, you can't have both. the point is a chisel is perfectly safe if used correctly, can you imagine the safety features you have to add in order to make it safe against accidentally hurting yourself?

I have the greatest respect for Bob Swenson and his work, and everyone else who have kindly responded to my comments here, I respect your opinions, I just happen to disagree with them. If you manage to stick some part of yourself into a moving blade I'm sorry, I don't see that as anything BUT incompetent. 

As it happens, I find many situations when I remove the safety features from my tablesaw, when I do that I make a decision to accept the responsibilty to provide the extra safety requirements myself (like not sticking my hands where they can possibly enter the area of the sharp spinning bits). Now do ALL of you keep the safety guards on your tablesaws in place at all times, under all conditions, never take them off to cut a dado for example? of course not, you CAN'T cut a dado on a tablesaw with a splitter or riving knife in place, but under the logic of sawstop you should not be allowed to cut dados on a tablesaw (because you can't do it with the safety features in place).

My point is, be carefull what you wish for (and vote for with your dollars) you might end up with safe tools.

The US Consumer Product Safety Commission reports that every year table saws are
involved in:

Over 60,000 injuries Over 3,000 amputations $2 billion in injury-related costs
That?s one injury every 9 minutes!

I have a healthy fear of that spinning blade above that cast iron table. Every time I walk up to that saw I understand and am gripped with what that blade could do to me in an instant. One mistep, slip, what have you, could end my career. I love what I do and will do what it takes to be able to continue my career. I am confident in my ability and have never mindlessly used a powertool. I am always in the zone.

I agree that accidents are caused by stupidity. Yet I cast no jugdement. In no way do the woodworkers involved in tablesaw accidents deserve the consequence given.

I have cut myself with a chisel, utility knife, got splinters, and have even hit my thumb with my hammer. It is really hard to cut off your thumb with a chisel. Give me a break with that chisel argument!

Eiji Fuller

 

[Warrior]

nothing to do with pride, accidents are caused by stupidity, that's not a critism of anyone, it's a simple fact. I've had the odd accident myself in a lifetime of woodworking - in every single case, by definition, I was doing something stupid.

I would wager that if you had cut off your thumb on the table saw during one of those moments you would change your opinion of the saw stop brake.

 

[jaegerhund]

I can appreciate both sides of this argument and understand how sometimes (often) safety equipment can seem somewhat obtrusive, but the SawStop doesn't seem to be --- am I wrong?

Justin

 

[Per Swenson]

Steve,

This part here, "all times, under all conditions, never take them off to cut a dado for example? of course not, you CAN'T cut a dado on a tablesaw with a splitter or riving knife in place, but under the logic of sawstop you should not be allowed to cut dados on a tablesaw (because you can't do it with the safety features in place)."

Well, you have a another cartridge for the sawstop that specifically works as a dado break.

I don't wanna fight.

But I will defend anyone who embraces common sense.

And the common sense is, if the technology works, and it does, and you can afford it....

well, its pretty silly not to take advantage of it.

The inflammatory statement that its for people that don't know how to use a table saw

justs invites controversy. gut reaction controversy.

Go ask the fellas down at Clancys with 8 or 9 fingers who have 20 years on a saw,

just how much they would pay to have those fingers back.

Per

 

[Benjamin Miner]

I haven't bothered to defend myself here, as you all have done that for me. Thanks.

You have to be one macho creep to throw words like incompetent around on a forum like this. Does anybody moderate this site?

For now, I'll have to content myself with passing off my incompetent work on unsuspecting - and always delighted! - clients.

What a jerk.

 

[colotimber]

I haven't bothered to defend myself here, as you all have done that for me. Thanks.

You have to be one macho creep to throw words like incompetent around on a forum like this. Does anybody moderate this site?

For now, I'll have to content myself with passing off my incompetent work on unsuspecting - and always delighted! - clients.

What a jerk.

Hell Benjamin from the tone of your post, lets just take Steve out and draw and quarter the fool and then feed him through his table saw.  I really don't see that he (or at least I felt) he was insulting me personally.  There are a thousand ways to either maim or kill yourself every day in doing our jobs if you aren't careful, I along with many here have seen dim witted idiots that deserve what they got.  I have two Delta cabinet saws and run them both every day and have about 5 custom made push sticks hanging around the fence.  Yes I have had some close calls and all of them were because of my own stupidity.  If I had the choice between a saw with the capability of the saw stop and one that didn't I would take the one with, but for right now I guess I will just have to be careful.   

It is posts like this from Benjamin that is  the reason that this site has gotten so damn nasty, there is no room for name calling like "what a jerk", speaking of is there a moderator around.  Gee I did that without calling anyone a pompous ass.

 

[Steve Jones]

Colo timber:  Thanks for actually reading my words (some came close, but you're the only one who made the effort to understand what I was actually saying before reaching for the pichforks). I respect your courage to go against the flow. (which I admittedly stirred up, but I do love a lively discussion)

Benjamin: I voiced an opinion of a machine, and an opinion of how mistakes happen (my own included) actually in response to a question about the machine I was talking about. I didn't insult anyone in particular and have maintained a civil attitude and shown respect towards everyone in this discussion. for this you've decided to call me a creep and a jerk.

Read my words again, keep reading them until you understand what I was talking about (because it never was you) although I will state here in blunt print that what you did was stupid, it would be just as stupid if I did it. I'm truly sorry you hurt yourself, I apologize here and now if you thought I was insulting you on a public forum.

Now if you wanna keep throwing rocks, go ahead. I think this forum gets childish enough at times without adding to the noise myself.

I do tend to sometimes "stir the pot" because I'm not here to win a popularity contest (or any other kind) I believe that in a lively discussion spiced up with some dissagreements we'll all learn more than if we sit around having conversations like:

Festools great ain't it?
Sure is.
Yeah, but the tools are really neat ain't they?
Sure are.
Expensive though
Yup

Gets kinda old fast - but I swear I've seen this discussion on this board, not in these words (it took way more) but it basically boiled down to the above.

 

[Steve Jones]

Another thought, re-read this thread (I'm dumping more advice because I believe you and some other folks may benefit from a little lesson in how it's done) - there are many folks whose thoughts above totally disagree with me, I respect all these folks, many of them produce some of the finest work I've ever seen, I value their opinions, even if I don't blindly follow their advice I certainly consider their arguments, this is called a discussion, it may get lively, animated, even vociferous.....

But you'll not find anything getting personal until your last comment, it's evident from their thoughts that most of 'em think I should be taken behind the woodshed and "eddicated" with a two by four until i develop some common sense. Dumm and thickheaded as they might think me to be, not one of 'em (bless em) starting calling me names, I take that as a sign of mutual respect, They and I (and now hopefully everyone else reading this drivel) know how the game is played.

It's called respect, if you wish to receive it, you have to invest a little in others first.

Yours respectfully
Steve Jones

 

[Benjamin Miner]

There's nothing respecful about being labelled an incompetent who can't resist sticking his fingers in the blade. Or being called someone who shouldn't own a table saw. Those kinds of sentiments go beyond stirring the pot. It's plain nasty.

I know highly skilled craftsmen with no injuries, and ones who have had worse than me. I've also marvelled at the yahoos doing patently unsafe things who never seem to get hurt. If it were about competence, or even fairness, the jobsite landscape wouldn't be littered with yahoos reinforcing unfortunate stereotypes about tradesmen, as they would all have been disabled by now. But it doesn't work that way. If chances of being hurt are 1 in a million (I'd guess the likelihood is somewhat higher in our field), and you do something a million times, eventually your number is apt to come up. It's as simple as that.

 

[Steve Jones]

I rest my case.

 

[vteknical]

Mr. Jones

We have a Tablesaw sold here under that brand name, it's claim to fame is that it protects incompetents who can't resist sticking their fingers into the sharp moving bits.

SawStop is a brand of tablesaw designed for folks who shouldn't own a tablesaw.

Steve it's my perception that you drew first blood with the condenscending remarks.
Here it is in a nutshell.

Table saw related injuries=Incompetent Person
Incompetent Person=Shouldn't own a table saw
Benjamin=Tablesaw user
Benjamin's Tablesaw injury=Incompetent person who shouldn't own a table saw.

Then you turn this around and make it about you(because he provided the opening "What a Jerk") for justifying IMO your bad timing and place for your statement.   Sounds pretty inflexible to me?

My wife has mastered this technique over the years.  We have a discussion about something we both know full well she is wrong about.   Being a stubborn human she will defend her case until I say something that provides her the reason to change the topic and become a victim of her flawed thinking.

Just an outsider's perspective
Victor

 

[Bob Swenson]

Benjamin,

A couple of years back when I was on the phone Per asked me
who I was calling. When I tolled him I was was calling the Sawstop
people to order a saw he said "What, are you nuts". I replied that you
would have to be crazy not to own one. Well we got our name on the order list
and found out that we would have wait over  three months for delivery.
I didn't know a thing about the saw except that you couldn't cut your fingers off with it,
not like my first table saw, a Sears 8", that I bought long before Per was born.
I do not use a blade guard with the Sawstop, I didn't use one with the Sears ( don't remember
it ever having one).
The point is that the SS one beautiful jewel of a machine.
I balanced a nickel on the saw when I ripped the first piece of wood on it
and it didn't move.
I marvel at it every time I use it
Buy one.
Bob

 

[Tom the Remodeler]

I am a professional carpenter, have been for seven years and hope to be one for the rest of my career. I have every intention of purchasing a Sawstop Contractor saw, or hopefully some variety of not-yet-developed jobsite saw. Not because I plan on sticking my fingers into the blade, but because I work around a lot of other people, and as careful as everybody tries to be there's always the chance that someone might bump me while I'm cutting, and I don't want to risk the rest of my career because somebody else (or myself) was careless for even a moment. Much the same as driving a car, even the most aware and conscientious driver can still be injured by somebody else who's not paying attention.

By the way, their jobsite cart looks quite nice!! Imagine, a contractors saw you can actually move around the jobsite! 

 

[Benjamin Miner]

First - a personal thank you to Victor. Much obliged.

Tom - where did you find that image? It looks more like a sketchup drawing, but the idea of a mobile sawstop is pretty compelling. I wonder how much they weigh? I've been considering the new Bosch 4100 with their much improved guard, but if the Sawstop were light enough for 2 people to ove upstairs, that'd be a cinch.

 

[Tom the Remodeler]

Hi Benjamin! I think I saw a photo of this setup in a woodworking magazine, and copied this particular image from the Sawstop homepage, here

 

[petiegolfer]

I am and have always been a risk aware person...I always think about what could happen!

So I am always careful with powertools and tools in general.

Have skiied alot and played a lot of sport Mt biking etc...one thing I know from experiance...accidents happen when you are tired and or dehydrated. We would always as a group (the guys I skiied with) talk ourselves off the mountain with out doing a last crazey run.

If I am working on something with a potentially dangerous outcome...I try to never ever do it at the end of the day or when I am tired...there is always tomorrow...or i take a break.

You dont have to be incompetant to have accidents.

One thing that I saw on a table saw once was a coloured area around the blade....the owner said that it was for him to remember that when the saw was runnning...his hands never went in that area...push sticks yes hands no!

Piers

 

[Dave Ronyak]

Perusing this thread was mostly sad.  Sorry about that badly cut finger.  Hey, anyone can have an accident.  If you knew it was going to happen, most would avoid doing it!

For those who don't already know and have slammed the lawyers, it was a lawyer who invented the Sawstop.  He is a patent attorney and thus also has at least a four years college level technical degree (physics, I think).  When he could not get any of the established manufacturers to adopt his invention despite proving repeatedly that it really worked, he and his partners went into business themselves to make table saw's with this innovative safety feature available to whomever wants to buy one (and can afford it).

That feature also should be made available on bandsaws.  I know of people (not myself yet) who have made the same mistake of pushing their finger on the work through the blade.

Dave R.

 

[Frank-Jan]

...
That feature also should be made available on bandsaws...

They have put together a working prototype of such a bandsaw, you can see a short videoclip in the "future products" part of their website.link