Precise, portable table saw?

[Kev]

[member=13058]Kev[/member]  It seems like what I am of the belief if as well.
It takes a lot of rainbow coloured notes to get that specific Unicorn, but everyone that has one seems to rave about it... And if it does the job of a Kapex, then the cost seems somewhat offsetable.

I am trying now to figure out whether it is about as good as a more permanent saw (and saving mostly green and yellow notes). And making sure I really need it. The track saw only does so much easily...

[member=40772]Holmz[/member]  I am having pangs of regret over the CMS TS and additional bits I've invested in ... though space is my enemy at the moment, not cash (even an Erika would chew a lot of space relative to what I have left - plus the Erika is half of the Hammer saw/spindle I want - space again!).

I've been making some practice cuts to produce small strips of oregon (12x4mm, then 300 chamfer) for a project I'm thinking about and I'm not happy. I almost grabbed a Dewalt thicknesser this morning out of frustration (but again, I have a bigger machine target for that and it's probably a waste, though I'm not convinced a portable thicknesser will be a waste if I find a good supply of recycled timber for a future purpose).

Another real stumbling point for me is if I do make a little space, should I then go all out and get a 3 phase supply happening and invest in the full grunt machines.

I think it's harder for us hobbyists to make tool choices than tradespeople ... as a tradesperson you at least have a clue where your work will take you, as a mindless hobbyist you're always trying to guess ahead [embarassed]

 

[sancho57]

I for one am happy with my TS75 module.myes it took some getting use to as I had a full size stationary saw in my stateside shop. But after getting into Festool I hardly used it.

So for me it does a good job. When I return to the states, I will keep the CMS saw and not miss my stationary saw.

With all the jigs and things that can be used with the MFT to build anything I need, the TS75 will be used mainly for quick cuts that I can't do with my MFT or massive repetitive cuts that would be faster with the CMS.
But as my mentor taught me, it's all personal preference.

 

[Holmz]

...
I think it's harder for us hobbyists to make tool choices than tradespeople ... as a tradesperson you at least have a clue where your work will take you, as a mindless hobbyist you're always trying to guess ahead [embarassed]

You've read my mind.

 

[grbmds]

In the end, whether you love a tool, always comes down to what works for you best. There are generally a number of high quality tools out there. I bought the Sawstop JSS because I felt it was a quality tool and because it could save my hand some day. I am always careful, but things happen. The saw has lived up to my highest expectations so far; accurate, safe, easy to use, easy to roll out of the way in my shop when I need to, and high end dust collection with my dust collector. Is the saw worth the $1,299 price tag? For me it has been worth every penny. I have peace of mind and I have a saw which is much better than the saw I used for the previous 15 years.  I've owned the saw about 6 months and, in that time, I've used it often and always been satisfied with the power, accuracy, and dust collection. I just cut tapered legs out of 8/4 oak and there was no issue with power or the result at all.

When I buy tools these days, I do a lot of online research and listen to feedback on the FOG. Invariably the FOG feedback is varied, but that is again because each person values something a little different in a tool and uses it within their skill level and what they generally build. I know others who are completely satisfied with the current Bosch jobsite saw. I see many completely satisified with the Dewalt saws. I doubt you can go wrong with any of these. They are likely all high quality saws and provide a long life of service to the user.

 

[JimD]

I use a Ryobi BT3100 table saw which is light enough to be portable.  Even more portable is the Craftsman version which came with a fold up wheeled stand.  It has a universal motor but is belt driven.  I've cut 3 1/2 inch hardwoods with it.  It will take a full dado set.  It has a sliding miter table for crosscuts.  You'd have to find a used one, they aren't sold any more.  But it would be inexpensive.  Mine was about $300 new.  The rip fence also stays put and locks at both ends.  I have a micropositioner for it.  I used to use it with a large cabinet and extension rails but since getting a track saw, I took the extension rails off and made the cabinet smaller. 

 

[jacko9]

There was a short article in the last issue of Fine Woodworking Magazine about the Sawstop contractors saw and while they said is was pretty accurate and had onboard storage the two things they didn't like was;

1) The Miter gauge which they indicated was pretty bad

2) The short distance in front of the blade making cross cutting difficult.

Jack

 

[grbmds]

Both very legitimate criticisms. As for the infeed side of the table being short, that would be a problem with all saws of the jobsite type. The table is smaller and they all have about the same amount of distance in front of the blade; about 5" - 6". I have found ways around it and, for most things I do on the table saw, it isn't a problem for me.

 

[Tom the Remodeler]

I agree with the above thoughts that this may be a bit of a unicorn or "chasing the dragon" exercise.

The Rousseau table set up is nice for processing full sheets, but if you own a track saw you'll be using that to break down sheet goods, leaving you to use your table saw for ripping narrow stock, thereby negating the need for a Rousseau stand.

Generally speaking, you'll probably be reasonably happy with either the Bosch 4100, SawStop Jobsite, or either full sized DeWalt saws, assuming you take the time to carefully match your blade to the task you are performing, keep your saw tuned up, and use an appropriate feed rate.

If you're already looking at the SawStop jobsite saw, you may as well look at their Contractor saw. It's not a whole lot more expensive, is more powerful and stable, and opens up MANY more opportunities for aftermarket fences, throat plates, etc...

To date I've been getting by reasonably well with the Bosch GTS1013 table saw (the little one). It lacks the soft start and other creature comforts of the 4100, but it's highly portable, and I've resigned myself to having to joint ripped edges with my CMS router table with a shear cutting bit for furniture and cabinet grade work.

I have an Erika 70 on order, but at $3K+ it doesn't make sense for a hobby woodworker. I'm sure you could import a CS50 or CS70, but by the time you pay freight and buy a step-up converter you're back in Erika country for cost.

My suggestion is to get either the Bosch, DeWalt, or Sawstop, buy a handful of good quality blades for ripping, crosscutting, etc..., and plan on learning the limitations of the machine and adapting your work habits to accommodate those shortcomings. Hope this helps!

 

[Kev]

I agree with the above thoughts that this may be a bit of a unicorn or "chasing the dragon" exercise.

The Rousseau table set up is nice for processing full sheets, but if you own a track saw you'll be using that to break down sheet goods, leaving you to use your table saw for ripping narrow stock, thereby negating the need for a Rousseau stand.

Generally speaking, you'll probably be reasonably happy with either the Bosch 4100, SawStop Jobsite, or either full sized DeWalt saws, assuming you take the time to carefully match your blade to the task you are performing, keep your saw tuned up, and use an appropriate feed rate.

If you're already looking at the SawStop jobsite saw, you may as well look at their Contractor saw. It's not a whole lot more expensive, is more powerful and stable, and opens up MANY more opportunities for aftermarket fences, throat plates, etc...

To date I've been getting by reasonably well with the Bosch GTS1013 table saw (the little one). It lacks the soft start and other creature comforts of the 4100, but it's highly portable, and I've resigned myself to having to joint ripped edges with my CMS router table with a shear cutting bit for furniture and cabinet grade work.

I have an Erika 70 on order, but at $3K+ it doesn't make sense for a hobby woodworker. I'm sure you could import a CS50 or CS70, but by the time you pay freight and buy a step-up converter you're back in Erika country for cost.

My suggestion is to get either the Bosch, DeWalt, or Sawstop, buy a handful of good quality blades for ripping, crosscutting, etc..., and plan on learning the limitations of the machine and adapting your work habits to accommodate those shortcomings. Hope this helps!

Curious .. why the 70 and not the 85 ?

Kev

 

[Tom the Remodeler]

Curious .. why the 70 and not the 85 ?

Kev

Ultimately, it boiled down to the 70 being available in 120V. The 85 offers greater capacity, and/or I could have imported a 240V 70 at a significant savings, but ultimately I decided I didn't want to haul a step-up converter around to my job sites.

 

[rizzoa13]

Your right Tom 240v isn't for everyone. I have the 85 and just made a long cord and plug a breaker into the homes electrical panel. The pluses are ive got a larger saw with more capacity and 3hp right where I need it. I'm also usually the only person working on site because I buy homes and do all the renovation work myself so plugging into the panel wouldn't work for everyone. But it sure is nice!

 

[treesner]

I agree with the above thoughts that this may be a bit of a unicorn or "chasing the dragon" exercise.

The Rousseau table set up is nice for processing full sheets, but if you own a track saw you'll be using that to break down sheet goods, leaving you to use your table saw for ripping narrow stock, thereby negating the need for a Rousseau stand.

Generally speaking, you'll probably be reasonably happy with either the Bosch 4100, SawStop Jobsite, or either full sized DeWalt saws, assuming you take the time to carefully match your blade to the task you are performing, keep your saw tuned up, and use an appropriate feed rate.

If you're already looking at the SawStop jobsite saw, you may as well look at their Contractor saw. It's not a whole lot more expensive, is more powerful and stable, and opens up MANY more opportunities for aftermarket fences, throat plates, etc...

To date I've been getting by reasonably well with the Bosch GTS1013 table saw (the little one). It lacks the soft start and other creature comforts of the 4100, but it's highly portable, and I've resigned myself to having to joint ripped edges with my CMS router table with a shear cutting bit for furniture and cabinet grade work.

I have an Erika 70 on order, but at $3K+ it doesn't make sense for a hobby woodworker. I'm sure you could import a CS50 or CS70, but by the time you pay freight and buy a step-up converter you're back in Erika country for cost.

My suggestion is to get either the Bosch, DeWalt, or Sawstop, buy a handful of good quality blades for ripping, crosscutting, etc..., and plan on learning the limitations of the machine and adapting your work habits to accommodate those shortcomings. Hope this helps!

Hey tom thanks for all the thoughts.
I'm looking at the Rousseau as an upgraded fence, this is different than the outfeed table.

The contractor saw is interesting, how hard do you think it would be to move up and down 10 or so stairs and throw into a van? Seems like you could take the bottom legs off and put a bosh wheeled stand on it.

I did start to think maybe i should just go with an ultra portable saw like the smaller bosch you mentioned or the dewalt 745 then at some point in a few years when i have my own space get a cabinet saw, but worried about the power and lack of dados, would have to use a router.

 

[grbmds]

I think the Sawstop is heavier than the others. I doubt I'd want to move it up and down stairs. The wheels would work well on a more level surface or if 2 carried it. I use mine in the workshop and bought a jobsite size with wheels to all me to fold it up and move it out of the way and to reduce the footprint to the saw when it's set up for use. For that it is a great saw.

 

[Tom the Remodeler]

I agree with the above thoughts that this may be a bit of a unicorn or "chasing the dragon" exercise.

The Rousseau table set up is nice for processing full sheets, but if you own a track saw you'll be using that to break down sheet goods, leaving you to use your table saw for ripping narrow stock, thereby negating the need for a Rousseau stand.

Generally speaking, you'll probably be reasonably happy with either the Bosch 4100, SawStop Jobsite, or either full sized DeWalt saws, assuming you take the time to carefully match your blade to the task you are performing, keep your saw tuned up, and use an appropriate feed rate.

If you're already looking at the SawStop jobsite saw, you may as well look at their Contractor saw. It's not a whole lot more expensive, is more powerful and stable, and opens up MANY more opportunities for aftermarket fences, throat plates, etc...

To date I've been getting by reasonably well with the Bosch GTS1013 table saw (the little one). It lacks the soft start and other creature comforts of the 4100, but it's highly portable, and I've resigned myself to having to joint ripped edges with my CMS router table with a shear cutting bit for furniture and cabinet grade work.

I have an Erika 70 on order, but at $3K+ it doesn't make sense for a hobby woodworker. I'm sure you could import a CS50 or CS70, but by the time you pay freight and buy a step-up converter you're back in Erika country for cost.

My suggestion is to get either the Bosch, DeWalt, or Sawstop, buy a handful of good quality blades for ripping, crosscutting, etc..., and plan on learning the limitations of the machine and adapting your work habits to accommodate those shortcomings. Hope this helps!

Hey tom thanks for all the thoughts.
I'm looking at the Rousseau as an upgraded fence, this is different than the outfeed table.

The contractor saw is interesting, how hard do you think it would be to move up and down 10 or so stairs and throw into a van? Seems like you could take the bottom legs off and put a bosh wheeled stand on it.

I did start to think maybe i should just go with an ultra portable saw like the smaller bosch you mentioned or the dewalt 745 then at some point in a few years when i have my own space get a cabinet saw, but worried about the power and lack of dados, would have to use a router.

The Sawstop contractor saw is available with a great wheeled stand, similar in shape to the Bosch Gravity Rise but is fixed. At ~240lbs (the same as my Honda EB5000 generator), you will struggle to load this saw into a van or trailer without a long, gradual ramp, and I think you would REALLY struggle moving it up more than a step or two.

http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/61j%2BPdtuFyL._SX450_.jpg

My first employer had a contractor saw he would bring out to some of our bigger remodeling projects. I LOVED having it on site due to its power and stability, but it took three carpenters to wrestle it in and out of his van. Once on site, we generally placed it in the garage, and there it stayed until the project was complete.

The Rousseau stand, fence and out feed table are great, please don't get me wrong. I used to own one, and liked using it. My primary complaint was it was a hassle to transport in an already-overloaded truck, and I struggled to justify the space it occupied. Also, while the Rousseau fence is rock-solid, remember it was designed for saws many generations ago (for instance, Makita 2708 and 2703) where the fence often seemed like an afterthought, whereas most modern professional saws have reasonably nice fences. If you plan on breaking down sheet goods with a bench top table saw, the Rousseau stand is GREAT, but I think it would be a bit overkill for simply ripping down narrow stock.

For my Bosch GTS-1013, I cut down the legs on the scissor stand so that the saw table is the same height as my MFT/3 tables, allowing me to use my MFTs as out feed tables. The Erika 70 is only ~1/2" shorter than the MFT/2, so some 1/2" or 5/8" blocks should allow me the same utility when the saw arrives.

 

[treesner]

The Sawstop contractor saw is available with a great wheeled stand, similar in shape to the Bosch Gravity Rise but is fixed. At ~240lbs (the same as my Honda EB5000 generator), you will struggle to load this saw into a van or trailer without a long, gradual ramp, and I think you would REALLY struggle moving it up more than a step or two.

http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/61j%2BPdtuFyL._SX450_.jpg

My first employer had a contractor saw he would bring out to some of our bigger remodeling projects. I LOVED having it on site due to its power and stability, but it took three carpenters to wrestle it in and out of his van. Once on site, we generally placed it in the garage, and there it stayed until the project was complete.

The Rousseau stand, fence and out feed table are great, please don't get me wrong. I used to own one, and liked using it. My primary complaint was it was a hassle to transport in an already-overloaded truck, and I struggled to justify the space it occupied. Also, while the Rousseau fence is rock-solid, remember it was designed for saws many generations ago (for instance, Makita 2708 and 2703) where the fence often seemed like an afterthought, whereas most modern professional saws have reasonably nice fences. If you plan on breaking down sheet goods with a bench top table saw, the Rousseau stand is GREAT, but I think it would be a bit overkill for simply ripping down narrow stock.

For my Bosch GTS-1013, I cut down the legs on the scissor stand so that the saw table is the same height as my MFT/3 tables, allowing me to use my MFTs as out feed tables. The Erika 70 is only ~1/2" shorter than the MFT/2, so some 1/2" or 5/8" blocks should allow me the same utility when the saw arrives.

Thank you for your opinion on the Rousseau and it's use. I'd mainly be buying it for it's nice fence, but it does seem like it makes it harder to move around, the rolling stands can't be used in conjunction with them. I don't see my table saw being the main purpose to rip plywood so it's good to keep in mind.

Wondering if you've had any experience with the sawstop job site saw in comparison to the SS contractor saw you used.

So you're upgrading from the bosch gts to an erika?

 

[w802h]

I'm using the regular, thicker Forrest WWII on the Bosch 4100 without issue, not the ultra-thin. 

I almost always station the saw outdoors.  It's a dust thing, but it's pretty bulky to move with a good chance I'll ding up walls.  I've considered smaller models, but would probably use such a saw on "improvised" work stations that might not be as safe and wouldn't want lower quality cuts anyway. 

 

[Tom the Remodeler]

The Sawstop contractor saw is available with a great wheeled stand, similar in shape to the Bosch Gravity Rise but is fixed. At ~240lbs (the same as my Honda EB5000 generator), you will struggle to load this saw into a van or trailer without a long, gradual ramp, and I think you would REALLY struggle moving it up more than a step or two.

http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/61j%2BPdtuFyL._SX450_.jpg

My first employer had a contractor saw he would bring out to some of our bigger remodeling projects. I LOVED having it on site due to its power and stability, but it took three carpenters to wrestle it in and out of his van. Once on site, we generally placed it in the garage, and there it stayed until the project was complete.

The Rousseau stand, fence and out feed table are great, please don't get me wrong. I used to own one, and liked using it. My primary complaint was it was a hassle to transport in an already-overloaded truck, and I struggled to justify the space it occupied. Also, while the Rousseau fence is rock-solid, remember it was designed for saws many generations ago (for instance, Makita 2708 and 2703) where the fence often seemed like an afterthought, whereas most modern professional saws have reasonably nice fences. If you plan on breaking down sheet goods with a bench top table saw, the Rousseau stand is GREAT, but I think it would be a bit overkill for simply ripping down narrow stock.

For my Bosch GTS-1013, I cut down the legs on the scissor stand so that the saw table is the same height as my MFT/3 tables, allowing me to use my MFTs as out feed tables. The Erika 70 is only ~1/2" shorter than the MFT/2, so some 1/2" or 5/8" blocks should allow me the same utility when the saw arrives.

Thank you for your opinion on the Rousseau and it's use. I'd mainly be buying it for it's nice fence, but it does seem like it makes it harder to move around, the rolling stands can't be used in conjunction with them. I don't see my table saw being the main purpose to rip plywood so it's good to keep in mind.

Wondering if you've had any experience with the sawstop job site saw in comparison to the SS contractor saw you used.

So you're upgrading from the bosch gts to an erika?

The Rousseau fence IS really nice. It's heavy duty, very easy to operate, and VERY easy to calibrate and tune up (my memory is you make adjustments with two nylon screws). I would suggest that, depending on how big you are, you consider how easily you will be able to lift one of the larger saws (Bosch 4100, for instance) over the top of the Rousseau stand, drop it into place, and then lift it back out at the end of the job. Certainly can be accomplished if you are healthy and athletic, but it can be asking a lot if you have a weak back. If you go with the Rousseau, you may want to consider a smaller/lighter saw, but then again the smaller/lighter saws (Bosch GTS1013, Dewalt 745) don't have the nicer, router-quality motors like the larger saws (4100, 7480/7490), and are frequently limited to smaller dado stacks, etc....

The only SawStop saw I have experience using is the Professional model, and it is fantastic. My local Woodcraft does have the Jobsite and Contractor models side by side on display. The Jobsite model seems comparable to the Bosch 4100. The Contractor saw is definitely a MUCH bigger, heavier, and more capable saw, but ultimately you would need to decide whether you are willing to sacrifice mobility for a bigger motor, better fence, better blade arbor, etc......

For myself, I don't own a dado stack (yet), so I plow all of my dados with my CMS router table, or with an edge guide when necessary, using standard straight bits as well as undersized bits sized for plywood. It's not perfect, but for my needs it works pretty well. Eventually I will decide between installing a OF2200 in the CMS, or investing in a Bosch 4100 or Sawstop saw and set it up with a dado stack as a dedicated dado machine.

For breaking down sheet goods I use a track saw, then dimension on a table saw. I chose the Erika 70 due to stellar reviews, and the ability to also make crosscuts. My ultimate goal is to reserve my Kapex for crown moulding projects, and use the Erika for most other precision crosscutting tasks.

For your needs, I would consider:

Do you REALLY need to have a saw capable of pulling a dado blade, or can you plow your dados with a router table?

Which do you place greater emphasis on, mobility or stability? If you want mobility, go with a GTS1013 of 745. If you want rock solid, portable stability, go with a Contractor saw. Anything in between will be a compromise.

Will you be setting up and taking the saw station down every day?

If you will be dealing with lots of steps (I think you mentioned 10 steps in a previous post), you may want to consider a mid-sized saw with a scissor stand, such at the Dewalt 7480. Essentially the same saw as a 7490 (minus the wheeled cart), you can simply pick the saw up and carry it up and down flights of stairs, but it will be more robust and capable than the 745.

Anyways, yeah, tons of variables to consider!

 

[treesner]

Yesterday I was able to see all 3 saws i'm considering in person, play around with the fence/adjustment/stand ect. And I have to say it brought the dewalt 7490 back into the discussion for me (great back to more options, hah). They all had nice feeling tables and they all felt pretty heavy. The sawstop JSS didn't really seem to stand out in terms of build quality, the bad micro adjustment and fast up and down action was really nice though. Bosch 4100 seemed ok, fence was kind of rickety. Overall the Dewalt 7490 had a nice open design of the body (less plastic) and the fence system worked great form what experimented with, the stand is a saw horse design so I could split up the weight instead of picking up stand+wheeled cart like the others.

Dewalt 7490 // $500 (with sawhorse stand (the7491 has wheels/32" rip capacity)
-overall build quality was really nice, I like the open design, less plastic
-Fence was the best i’d tried, could easily square it up lock from and back then use the hand crank to move forward back
-Sawhorse stand, split up the weight easier (but no wheels)

Bosch 4100 // $600 (with cart)
-plastic body wasn’t appealing
-fence was ok, not that smooth and felt like I would have to double measure to keep in square every time

Sawstop Jop Site Saw // $1,399 (with cart)
-build quality didn’t feel like it was worth the huge price jump
-fence was decent
-had the best blade adjustment, fast up and down + only saw with fine tuning of blade angle

Making me think that I should go with the 7490, buy multiple blades for different jobs: rip, cross, dado, a nice miter gauge, and sled.

 

[Sparktrician]

If you're not in a huge rush, you might want to wait until the Bosch REAXX is available sometime later this fall, then reexamine your options. 

 

[nickao]

If you're not in a huge rush, you might want to wait until the Bosch REAXX is available sometime later this fall, then reexamine your options. 

That's a 1500.00 saw, and basically it's very similar to Bosch's current offerings other than the safety feature that adds 1000.000.

There will then be two readily available bench tops of this type saw in the 1500.00 price point. Two saws that are basically the quality of a 600.00 saw with a safety feature.

If I am going to pay 1500.00 for a bench top  I much prefer better both out-feed and side extension tables integral to the design with a 32" to 36" rip fence(of quality of the DeWalt's 7491 fence)and an INDUCTION motor with great dust collection. I wish some company would put the 1000.00 in these features instead of a safety and/or a feature to communicate with my cell phone.  Again for me owing the Saw Stop version and seeing the specs on the Bosch REAXX these 1500.00 bench top saws seem to be nothing more than the quality of a 600.00 saw with some feature most of us dont want to that pay that much for. It's one thing paying a premium on a cabinet saw where it may add 20% to 30% or so and totally another when the safety feature TRIPLES the cost like it seems to be doing on the bench top versions.

Obviously my advice is to get that DeWalt 7491 RS right now(I like 7491RS wheels and stand so much) and enjoy it, just make sure you have good hearing protection that baby is loud. I used it 15 minutes ago and for me its the best bench top  have used to date. If the Dewalt 7491 had an induction motor it would be near a dream Bench Top, if it only had integral feed tables.