Priced out a mega Festool CMS setup

[PreferrablyWood]

I'm driving my self nuts trying to find away to get the CMS set with a router and all the additions except the extra side table, I throw in the CXS set as well.

In Europe it's not possible to get the CMS basic with router insert with all the available accesories except the extra side table.. so I got an estimate from dorch og danola for a setup that looks pretty attractive with decent savings,

The table with OF 1400 router set then the extension table Dust extraction hose, the sliding fence, I missed getting the mitre gauge on the deal, added the 1400 guide rail, need the guide rail adapter for the router and I suppose the edge guide for the router...

Anyways I have about 2/3 of the funds for all this saved up now, and to take delivery on this I would need to get credit for the last 30%.

It seems like a big jump from not having a router to going to a full fledged CMS setup. I'm considering this as there are considerable savings when getting the CMS with the router set, and I can really see the usefullness of the system and for me the portablity and small storage footprint aspects are really attractive. Though I begin to have my doubts about just how compact the whole set is with all the accesorries..

I'm now considering getting  the TS55, with CMS insert, also at the set price there is savings to be had. I had thought about going with the TS75, but the TS55 with it's small size seems to be more suitably dimensioned to the CMS than the TS75, at least that's what I sense..Ripping or crosscutting heavy 3 inch thick boards on the CMS seems counter intuitive, I speculate that it might be too easy to tip or damage the setup in that applicaion.

I have the Carvex and although it's a cordless model I think for this tool I would take a chance and break the rules by placing it in the CMS for template making scroll work..Or maybe just pick up a used 300 or 400 for use in the table..I plan here to rig up the second hose to suck the dust from the top of the table..

Anyways I now have a much better idea of what the CMS total system cost is with all the tools and inserts, it's now a matter of finding my own personal economic strategy to bring the plan into reality..

 

[sancho57]

Do what I did.

I had the kids get paper routes and the wife a job as a dishwasher or maid.

Hey I got my Kapex

 

[PreferrablyWood]

Do what I did.

I had the kids get paper routes and the wife a job as a dishwasher or maid.

Hey I got my Kapex

Well it's close to Halloween, maybe I could have a talk with naaa,,,,, the Festool Force is strong in me, I will find a way... The green force be with you!

 

[RC]

What ever you do don't try using a cordless Carvex in the CMS-PS insert. Its down right dangerous with the power switch way under the table and dusty as well since the hose doesn't properly fit under the table.

Also don't waste your money on a PS400 for it. Search for my short review of my ex. Carvex PSC400 in the CMS for photos & details.

I've got a PS420 in mine now and I'm fairly happy with the combination. Note though that you can only do 90-degree cuts with the Carvexes whereas you might be able to go angled with the Trion since its own tilting base connects to the CMS insert vs. the Carvex guiderail adaptor that is always straight. (Don't own a Trion so the above is speculation based on specs & reasoning on my part. )

I've got a TS55 in its insert as well and it works fine. Just remember that the insert eats away a good 5mm of capacity. Ideally I'd like to have a 75 in the CMS and a 55R for hand held operations. You'll be suprised how ofter you cant be bothered to get your mitre saw out for a few cuts and do it instead on the CMS-TS with the sliding table... The sliding table is a must buy btw. for sawing.

 

[PreferrablyWood]

What ever you do don't try using a cordless Carvex in the CMS-PS insert. Its down right dangerous with the power switch way under the table and dusty as well since the hose doesn't properly fit under the table.

Also don't waste your money on a PS400 for it. Search for my short review of my ex. Carvex PSC400 in the CMS for photos & details.

I've got a PS420 in mine now and I'm fairly happy with the combination. Note though that you can only do 90-degree cuts with the Carvexes whereas you might be able to go angled with the Trion since its own tilting base connects to the CMS insert vs. the Carvex guiderail adaptor that is always straight. (Don't own a Trion so the above is speculation based on specs & reasoning on my part. )

I've got a TS55 in its insert as well and it works fine. Just remember that the insert eats away a good 5mm of capacity. Ideally I'd like to have a 75 in the CMS and a 55R for hand held operations. You'll be suprised how ofter you cant be bothered to get your mitre saw out for a few cuts and do it instead on the CMS-TS with the sliding table... The sliding table is a must buy btw. for sawing.

I see that the Trion comes up used for low money here in Denmark pretty often, so I think I'd just go that way..

Well it looks like the TS75 as I had originally thought might be the best solution. 5mm loss of height in the table does seem like a significant drop in capacity...

Well as I don't have a mitre saw, I would be using the CMS for mitre work at least for the forseeable future...

My idea is to get the OF 1400 or 2200 router set and the complete CMS with all accessorres minus sidetable expander. On the same order I'll get a guide rail, guide rail adaptor for the router, extra edging guide for the router. Router Bitbox a few extra bits..

Follow that with the Trion and jigsaw module, I would like to have access angled cutting in the CMS table.

The TS75 or TS55 with CMS module.

 

[cliffp]

I would be tempted to go for the OF2200. I bought an OF1400 followed by the CMS GE and although I love both, I find routing such an important activity that I wish I had invested in an even more capable machine (ie the OF2200). I haven't yet reached the limitations of the OF1400 in terms of cutter size, stability etc but can imagine I will one day. I can see the limitations of the OF1400 in terms of small scale operations such as trimming edge banding, which though I can do it with the CMS (or with limited success using the edging plate listed as an accessory for the OF1010 but which can also be used with the OF1400), I am tempted to get an OF1010 to be able to do it easily without setting up the CMS/OF module and the additional home made jig. If you start with an OF1400, any additional router will have more overlap (unless you add an MFK700).

I should add that I have not actually used the OF2200, OF1010 or MFK700 so my opinion is based on what I have read.

 

[sancho57]

I recomend the 2200 in te CMS and the 1010 for hand routing. The CMS though is a monster but can easily be used for free hand routing as well.

I find those 2 routers for me do everything I need for my complete routing experiance :>D

hehehehe sort of sounded like a infomercial huh?

 

[PreferrablyWood]

I love spending time on doing the research and speculating on the possible configurations, the idea about the OF 2200 and the OF 1010 instead of the single OF 1400 has a lot of merit.

For one the comparative costs of the CMS kit with the routers OF 1400  and OF 2200 aren't that much different, The OF 2200 set CMS TF 2200 costs around 18% more than the TF 1400 version. Also the OF 1010 router is easy to picked up used in nearly new condition  here in Denmark. So I could spend little more now to get what seems to be alot more capability:

1) Would have less of a need to take the router out of the table for doing smaller jobs, this would speed up general work flow.

2) The OF 1010 really is more suitable for freehand edgeband and laminate trimming.

3) The Of 1010 is probably more suitable for doing handheld template work..box joints or dovetails.

3) You have a back up router if one needs to me sent in for service, both routers work in the table..

4) The OF 2200 is more suitable for panelbits and other larger bits.. Though the hole in the table begins
to be the limiting factor here..

5) The OF 2200 is really a more developed system allround and also more suitable if you end up doing mineral shaping..I personally am thinking on those lines for my own upcoming kitchen remodel

Note: I was worried about the amperage needed for driving the OF 2200 but it turns out that this is not such a concern here in Denmark. Also I could use two separate circuits, relays one for the vac one for the heavier duty tools..

 

[RC]

And if you get the side extension table to have more than 15cm of cut capacity against the fence with your saw module you need to purchase the optional fence (492095) as well to be able to travel onto the extension table...

 

[PreferrablyWood]

And if you get the side extension table to have more than 15cm of cut capacity against the fence with your saw module you need to purchase the optional fence (492095) as well to be able to travel onto the extension table...

Thanks for pointing this out, the side extension table is a little bit pricey, so I hadn't really thought of getting but I see now it's needed when you use the TS modules...$$$. I go do my research once again..

 

[RC]

This was the point where I begun looking at options... I own the CMS-OF1400 set, CMS-TS55 & CMS-PS modules and the sliding table. When I begun adding up all the extension tables, fence and a dovetailing jig like Leigh D4R it became quickly evident that it would be more economic to actually get the CMS-VL for my MFT/3 and an Incra LS Superfence system.

The Festool router fence isn't that great (namely it lacks repeatable adjustability (you have to squint at the lines on the table and tap by hand and measure seventeen times; the microadjust is only for the in-feed face for jointing) and the additional fence doesn't automatically align itself parallel to the saw blade when you lock it down. 

I personally don't think that the Festool extensions and additional fences are that super high quality as their tools are and they are bits to store away somewhere when not in use. The Incra fence system seems to offer major benefits over them as well as operate as an advanced dovetail and box-jointing jig too with superior repeatability and feels super solid.

I still haven't pulled the trigger on the Incra/VL combo due to the 1000€ price tag, but the more I look at this the better it seems as an idea. See This thread for more about this idea

In the end-game I'm planning on having a similar setup as Festoller on my MFT/3 + CMS-VL + Incra LS and use the CMS-TS and CMS-OF modules in it and keep the CMS-PS permanently in the CMS-GE and use the GE as an outfeed table when needed on the CMS-VL/MFT since they happen to be the same height.

 

[Kev]

This was the point where I begun looking at options... I own the CMS-OF1400 set, CMS-TS55 & CMS-PS modules and the sliding table. When I begun adding up all the extension tables, fence and a dovetailing jig like Leigh D4R it became quickly evident that it would be more economic to actually get the CMS-VL for my MFT/3 and an Incra LS Superfence system.

The Festool router fence isn't that great (namely it lacks repeatable adjustability (you have to squint at the lines on the table and tap by hand and measure seventeen times; the microadjust is only for the in-feed face for jointing) and the additional fence doesn't automatically align itself parallel to the saw blade when you lock it down.  

I personally don't think that the Festool extensions and additional fences are that super high quality as their tools are and they are bits to store away somewhere when not in use. The Incra fence system seems to offer major benefits over them as well as operate as an advanced dovetail and box-jointing jig too with superior repeatability and feels super solid.

I still haven't pulled the trigger on the Incra/VL combo due to the 1000€ price tag, but the more I look at this the better it seems as an idea. See This thread for more about this idea

In the end-game I'm planning on having a similar setup as Festoller on my MFT/3 + CMS-VL + Incra LS and use the CMS-TS and CMS-OF modules in it and keep the CMS-PS permanently in the CMS-GE and use the GE as an outfeed table when needed on the CMS-VL/MFT since they happen to be the same height.

I'll second all of what Reiska says here and I'm also thinking Incra for my VL+MFT/3 combo.

As you get serious, a bandsaw will probably come to mind at some point too (poor Reiska is probably trying to figure out how to mount one in the ironing cupboard!). I have a CARVEX in a CMS module ... it's "ok", but it's neither a band saw or a scroll saw ...  

 

[MrToolJunkie]

I recomend the 2200 in te CMS and the 1010 for hand routing. The CMS though is a monster but can easily be used for free hand routing as well.

I find those 2 routers for me do everything I need for my complete routing experiance :>D

hehehehe sort of sounded like a infomercial huh?

I agree with the versatility of these two machines and I do not have a CMS...

Scot

 

[sancho57]

You can always build your own side extension or use a MFT.

When I get m TS75  & CMS module as I have the OEM side extension Ill be using the MFT as a out feed table.

I second the optional fence to.

 

[PreferrablyWood]

@Reiska

What you have written about the limitations of the CMS router table setup gives me pause, I'd think that the whole charm of getting a system like the CMS would be to get something you are happy with for it's intended uses. I really question combining the CMS with the Incra LS Superfence system, as it gets needlessly complicated and expensive, why not just settle on the Incra system from the get go if that's what you want?

At least to me it appears that the CMS has a different usage scenario than making dovetails box joints. I'm not convinced that the incra system is that fleixble a workflow aid for dovetails and the like, if your drawers or boxes are more than say 12" deep won't it get unmanagable? IMO the Dovetail jigs are a more comfortable and safer way to work for that application.. Here using the OF 1010 router with any of the preferred dovetail joint systems seems like you can just wiz through the job.

When the tool is running, speed of execution is an important factor, noise, electricity stress on the worker is kept to a minimum with speedy and effective workflow. While the tool is running a router jig is the fastest way to go dovetails and box joints.

The CMS system if the price is right has a simple elegance, that used sensibly can likely achieve great results in many applications for which it is suited. Trying to work in a way that clearly moves out of it's intended scope creates a frustrated user. Perhaps there are other workflows. It is mentioned that the CMS cannot handle wider than 16 cm cuts without the side extension and the longer fence. Would this application not then be done using the track saw? If I envision working with wider workpieces on a tablesaw on regular basis, wouldn't it be best just to buy a portable tablesaw with the right specifications from the get go. For examplte metabo offerings can be had for not much more then the needed extra accesories for the CMS..

Now I'm not that experienced at all this workshop talk and combining systems and building your own highend solutions takes time and alot of precsion gear, that I don't have. I'm willing to pay more for ease of setup and use. Then if I meet limitations in a system, maybe it's time to expand my setup in a manageble way. Wider workpieces? use the track saw. Jigsaw insert doesnot work well for my applicatio or doesn't work with the cordless version? Get a bandsaw... Dovetails and box joints on the horizon, get the smallest and cheapest dovetail jig to start off with..

 

[cliffp]

wouldn't it be best just to buy a portable tablesaw

If I had the space to leave everything set up, I would buy a dedicated table saw and router table but even then, I would want to factor in the desirability of being able to include a bandsaw, so for a slightly larger shop I would keep the CMS and add a bandsaw.

I am quite happy with the way the CMS works with all the extensions (side and length), sliding table and LA stopper (optional fence). I regard these accessories as essential for a useful system (my opinion of course). I tried using the MFT as an outfeed table and it didn't work well because my floor isn't level and I found it too tedious to align the tops of the CMS and MFT. If I am able to leave the router and saw in their respective modules, it is quite convenient to swap them around but the router plus module plus fence (sometimes I have been able to leave the fence set up for a specific operation that I knew I would be carrying out again soon) weighs a ton and is therefore more difficult to store. To give an example, I flushed some edge banding but before completely finishing that operation, had to use the saw so I removed the router/module/fence and because of the weight (not wanting to injure my back) put it on the MFT (no where else of a convenient height to put it). I now find that when I want to use the MFT, it has been tied up, albeit temporarily, as a storage area for the router/module/fence! For this reason, I would like an alternative way of flushing edges that does not impact on the CMS set-up.

 

[PreferrablyWood]

Some strategies I'm considering right now:

Go with OF 2020 and later one of the following a OF 1010, MFK 500, or the Dewalt dualbase unit instead of the OF1400.

I'll use the smaller router for  smaller edging.

With the Of 2200 it's a toss up on either getting it with it's own set with the various bases or with the CMS set with sliding sidefence and outfeed extenion.  Or the bare OF 2200 then buying a bare MFT with MFS 40 and a guide rail in lew of a plan for a router table.

The router table should either be CMS or the LS system, Not a mix of the two.

I'll go with a simple and cheap dovetail jig for now..

To sum up, I'm going with the Festool line because of the dust collection, egronomics, and designed precision aids. It's a trusted and innovative manufacturer, is  based in a neighbouring country with good customer support and a knowledgable user base..

Every system has limitations and advantages being aware of these and basing my decsiion on this knowledge means I can focus my tool setup investments/time/learning curve, to take advantage of the best elements of the available systems..

@cliffp I can see you are using the LS stopper, it's hard for me to understand how to set this up on the CMS without reducing it's functionality, also the added cost of the LS stopper is somewhat hard to swallow when the initial outlay for a TF system is so high, you would expect that it does the jobs you likely to use it for.

 

[cliffp]

@cliffp I can see you are using the LS stopper, it's hard for me to understand how to set this up on the CMS without reducing it's functionality, also the added cost of the LS stopper is somewhat hard to swallow when the initial outlay for a TF system is so high, you would expect that it does the jobs you likely to use it for.

I assume you mean LA stopper? The LA stopper doesn't reduce the CMS's functionality. You just add it and remove it when required (its very easy to do this). You can add it to the side extension or the basic table (or slide it across the junction of the two if they are connected). If you have the sliding table set up with the mitre fence you can leave everything set up and switch between rip and cross cuts without removing anything (if the LA stopper gets in the way it is easy to remove). I know the LA stopper seems expensive but when you see the engineering that goes into it and how well it works, you won't regret buying it.

 

[RC]

@PreferablyWood

Don't know if you have a dedicated work space or not or if portability is key to you. Unfortunately I don't have a shop space to work in so all my tools come back inside from the backyard after every building session and get stored away under the stairs & a walk-in closet. That is the reason I bought the CMS-system (and that I got it dirt cheap second hand off our local eBay - I wouldn't have it if I had had to pay retail for it).

At the time I hadn't even heard of the Incra system and since I'm battling constantly for space to store my tools having 'yet another large object' i.e. a D4R to store away would just not make sense for me (and cause my SO to blow a fuse). And why I can't go with a 'standard' Incra system is that I don't have the space to have it permanently setup around a tablesaw/router table since they don't fold away at the end of the day. Please note that I'm not planning on using the CMS-GE with the Incra system but the CMS-VL base that attaches to my MFT. This provides me with the MFT's holes to clamp/dog the Incra positioner repeatably on the MFT, gives the MFT as the 'extension table' if you wish and gives 17" of cutting capacity in table saw mode and same with rabbet routing if need be. The Incra setup would just not work on the CMS-GE.

You are probably right that doing very wide/long box joints or dovetails on the Incra would not be optimal, but I can't see myself building drawers deeper than 25cm anyway for any normal use and I can always fall back to my dovetailing saw and cut them by hand if the need arises.

Don't get me wrong about the CMS system as a whole - it's probably the best portable system out there, but its obviously not equal in capabilities as full-blown shop gear.

There are small things like

Sawing:
- non-parallel saw fences (unless you set it every time)
- small cutting capacity against the fence of 15cm unless you buy the ridiculously expensive extension table & extra fence
- no out feed unless you purchase the ridiculously expensive outfeed table or do like I do and use my MFT as the out feed when needed
- tilt mechanism of the saw is awkward to use if needed (two screws under the table and you really can't see the angle scale there; use you iPhone on the blade or something similar to get the angle)
- if you can't afford a second saw for hand use you don't really want to move it back and forth even thou it isn't that bad a job. I constantly try to find ways of not having to go through the removal process
- The widget you have to click onto the blade housing is really hard to get in or out when you remove/insert the saw to the CMS module

Routing:
- depth adjustment of the router fence (two discreet screwing points for different depths, have to loosen fence, move it back, screw back in and realign)
- positioning of the fence with eyeballing the markings on the table and still having to measure a few times to make sure the distances are correct - don't trust the printed scale at all
- can do rabbets only on edges and near them within the few cm of depth adjustability of the fence
- Removing router for guide rail rabbeting is again a minor pain, though simpler than the saw (you might lose the alignment piece if you're not careful with it when removed)
- The loose bits from the router setup will fill a TL2 systainer and still you'll have the fence to store away somewhere. Festool really should have a CMS-Of-extra-bits-insert for a (maxi) systainer to have a place to put all the bits and bobs in when not in use...

Jigsawing:
- Not a bandsaw replacement, the blade doesn't have enough rigidity to stay straight if attempting re-sawing
- If you use the zero-clearance insert you need to remove the saw from the CMS-module to change blades

Of course the above is concentrating on the negatives and comparing to stationary shop equipment, which can be argued as unfair, but that is what I'm trying to have in the least storage space and portably as possible. Having the CMS beats the heck out of not having it, but is obviously a bunch of trade-offs with functionality and ease of use.

If I even had a garage workshop where I could leave kit assembled and ready to use I would probably have gone another route with stationary tools like a proper table saw, bandsaw and a separate router table, but life is what it is and you have to get by as well you can so I'm a happy CMS-user who's looking constantly ways of improving what I have withing the limitations I have.
I just wish Festool engineers made magic happen and came up with a CMS-bandsaw module and a CMS-Planer/Jointer module...  [wink]

 

[PreferrablyWood]

@cliffp I can see you are using the LS stopper, it's hard for me to understand how to set this up on the CMS without reducing it's functionality, also the added cost of the LS stopper is somewhat hard to swallow when the initial outlay for a TF system is so high, you would expect that it does the jobs you likely to use it for.

I assume you mean LA stopper? The LA stopper doesn't reduce the CMS's functionality. You just add it and remove it when required (its very easy to do this). You can add it to the side extension or the basic table (or slide it across the junction of the two if they are connected). If you have the sliding table set up with the mitre fence you can leave everything set up and switch between rip and cross cuts without removing anything (if the LA stopper gets in the way it is easy to remove). I know the LA stopper seems expensive but when you see the engineering that goes into it and how well it works, you won't regret buying it.

Okay, I see now the light. What I was worried about was if the system loses it's mobility/usability if it has too many elements to keep track of when doing projects, transportation and storing.. Seems like the LA stopper is only an improvement to the system then. Great news..

The LA stopper is a really impressive piece of equipment, which might be in my future, but right now I have to keep costs and and keep the learning curve limited.. So I might go the CMS MFT-VL system which would be more easily intergrade with an expanded fence super fence setup...