prototypes

[Michael Kellough]

Even with Christian's explanation of why they don't want info about the prototypes
getting out I still don't think it's a big deal. At least not from the tool buyers point of view.
We may never get to buy the actual tools because they'll never be manufactured.

That's kinda sad.
We never got to buy personal helicopters like we were promised in the fifties either.

What's really sad is that there are actual tools currently in manufacture by Festool
that we can't buy, like the outstanding belt sanders. That's what I find disconcerting.

 

[sw1211]

When car manufacturers come out with prototypes, what do they do, they display them at car shows.  Why would you want to develop a tool in a "vacuum?" Why not get as much feedback as possible, might just clue them in to possible demand and the likelihood of it's success or failure.  Plus who better to look to for possible improvements, prior to mass production, than the end users?  L2, I wouldn't lose sleep over this, we're talking tools, not military secrets.

 

[wnagle]

I think they do get feedback from end users...just not all of them. [unsure]

 

[EdL]

While the original post might not have been the correct thing to do. I've been thinking about a future purchase of a drill/impact combo tool. There are a few on the market currently.
This has put my plans on hold until it shakes out, maybe I'll be the proud owner of a cordless Festool...someday.

Ed

 

[L2theP]

Even with Christian's explanation of why they don't want info about the prototypes
getting out I still don't think it's a big deal. At least not from the tool buyers point of view.
We may never get to buy the actual tools because they'll never be manufactured.

That's kinda sad.
We never got to buy personal helicopters like we were promised in the fifties either.

What's really sad is that there are actual tools currently in manufacture by Festool
that we can't buy, like the outstanding belt sanders. That's what I find disconcerting.

On that note what isn't fair to the end user is the fact that all the development costs of all these prototype tools that might not even make the cut and ever show up on the market are getting factored into the final sale price of the tools that are out there for sale currently. Hence 1300$ chop saw with a 1200$ stand (mft kapex plus extensions).

When car manufacturers come out with prototypes, what do they do, they display them at car shows.  Why would you want to develop a tool in a "vacuum?" Why not get as much feedback as possible, might just clue them in to possible demand and the likelihood of it's success or failure.  Plus who better to look to for possible improvements, prior to mass production, than the end users?  L2, I wouldn't lose sleep over this, we're talking tools, not military secrets.

i couldn't have said it better, why go into production on a tool that gets reviewed by a handful of people vs 1000s who can give you a broad spectrum of input into the actual final unit prior to production.

 

[WarnerConstCo.]

I still want to know where my Festool Rep is? [big grin]

 

[L2theP]

I still want to know where my Festool Rep is? [big grin]

hehe, i think all the festool reps are currently running stealth mode due to my little cluster

 

[AlexThePalex]

hehe, i think all the festool reps are currently running stealth mode due to my little cluster

I wouldn't think to bad about it. If this post really meant a security breach for Festool, then you can rely on the fact that it would have been deleted already, being so close under the eye of Festool USA.

L2, I wouldn't lose sleep over this, we're talking tools, not military secrets.

Many factory secrets in the private sector are as closely guarded as military secrets, especially in the technology sector. Industrial espionage is happening on a large scale. Mind you, these products that were shown to L2 are probably out of that phase already or else the Festool people wouldn't have shown them.

On that note what isn't fair to the end user is the fact that all the development costs of all these prototype tools that might not even make the cut and ever show up on the market are getting factored into the final sale price of the tools that are out there for sale currently. Hence 1300$ chop saw with a 1200$ stand (mft kapex plus extensions).

Then I don't think you fully grasp how creativity works. For every one good idea that makes it into production perhaps a hundred are binned. If the developers wouldn't have the freedom to explore all those other unsuccessful ideas, the right one wouldn't have a chance to surface either.

Maybe listen to how Tomas Edison put it: "If I find 10,000 ways something won't work, I haven't failed. I am not discouraged, because every wrong attempt discarded is another step forward"

Creativity, research and development isn't a dozen steps into the right direction. It's a thousand steps in all directions until you know the dozen in the right direction.

 

[woodguy7]

Wow Alex, thats deep  [blink]  I bet you don't make sawdust for a living [smile]

L2, I'm glad you posted that, i for 1 like to hear about what might be coming & i too will hold off on the purchase of the t15 for a little bit (the fact that i bought a 150/3 sander yesterday doesn't help) to see if anything else is mentioned.  As it has already been said, don't loose any sleep over it, but if you hear a firm knock at your front door, head out the back door just in case  [scared]

Woodguy

 

[L2theP]

Then I don't think you fully grasp how creativity works. For every one good idea that makes it into production perhaps a hundred are binned. If the developers wouldn't have the freedom to explore all those other unsuccessful ideas, the right one wouldn't have a chance to surface either.

Maybe listen to how Tomas Edison put it: "If I find 10,000 ways something won't work, I haven't failed. I am not discouraged, because every wrong attempt discarded is another step forward"

Creativity, research and development isn't a dozen steps into the right direction. It's a thousand steps in all directions until you know the dozen in the right direction.

on the contrary, i fully understand the process of creativity as i am a woodworker. i have to do things 100s of times before i master a specific task like the perfect arch door with a beaded frame or how to make a hidden door bookshelf actually look like a bookshelf and not a door with shelves, i try and error on many occasions but certainly never transfer the cost of my mistakes onto my client.  so say it how you want, there is no right or wrong way to approach this topic,  only opinions which we are all entitled to.

 

[Brice Burrell]

I wouldn't hold off a tool purchase based on these prototypes. As Christian said these tools, if they do make it to retail, could be years away.  

 

[score0matic]

Maybe listen to how Tomas Edison put it: "If I find 10,000 ways something won't work, I haven't failed. I am not discouraged, because every wrong attempt discarded is another step forward"

Alex 
Tesla,  the inventor of AC power and other even more farsighted ideas  was asked about Edison's above quote his response went something like "If my mind worked as slow (as his), it would take me 10,001 try's too [big grin].  thot you would like that.
Craig

 

[justinmcf]

i was thinking the same thing as brice.

however, if they are years away, then festool will loose a huge bite of todays market that is screaming out for new cordless tools.

i would instantly buy 2 impact drivers, a cordless reciprocator and an electric reciprocator, sds rotary hammer drill and of course the new cordless jigsaw

so in reality, the longer festool holds off bringing these tools to market, the less profit they make.
and i believe that profit is what the game is all about.

regards, justin.

 

[Brice Burrell]

i was thinking the same thing as brice.

however, if they are years away, then festool will loose a huge bite of todays market that is screaming out for new cordless tools.

i would instantly buy 2 impact drivers, a cordless reciprocator and an electric reciprocator, sds rotary hammer drill and of course the new cordless jigsaw

so in reality, the longer festool holds off bringing these tools to market, the less profit they make.
and i believe that profit is what the game is all about.

regards, justin.

I think you're right and I'd guess these new cordless tools will be fast tracked.

 

[score0matic]

speaking of prototypes here is what i NEED I posted on a contractor form and got good response


Cordless Molding Ripper (mini tablesaw)
I have been doing a lot of lead abatement vinyl insert windows lately.

In an effort to make the system more streamlined i have been going Cordless starting with the DeWalt 18ga trim gun. Then I stumbled on the fact that the DeWalt DC500 vacuum meets OSHA standards (it is cordless/corded) I have traded in my big slider miter for a Makita 0714 and most of the time i use a Festool Trion for cutting 1x trim stock picking up a cordless jigsaw for this. my entire window kit is 3 systainers and the 2 gal vac.

now here is my vision for a new tool a Light weight, fully rugged molding ripper for use with molding, 1Xs, mainly for jamb extensions and other narrow stock rips.  (you know the stuff a TS55 has a harder time with [scratch chin])

    * 8" rack and pinion rip fence / carry handle

    * 10" tall 13" wide 18" long less then 20#

    * Durable construction, bottom is enclosed, noting to snag

    * 1 5/8 cap @ 90

    * Use a standard 6 1/2" blade

    * Riving knife

    * The saw would be corded/cordless

    * when cordless 36V running off twin 18 batteries

    * The saw would have a dust collection bin that is easy to dump

    * Clamping lugs to lock onto a table or horse

    * Priced around $300 w/o batteries or charger

I realize that this is a rather specialized tool, but would anyone else be interested in something like this?

Craig

This is what i want someone to prototype and let me field test [big grin]

 

[honeydoman]

In the interest of developing tools that are relevant to all markets around the world, Festool does conduct field trials of different concepts and prototypes.  
These tests allow us to determine the viability of ideas and solutions to practical issues.  

We normally ask the test customers who see prototypes not to write about it on the Internet. Why? The projects are still in the prototype phase and it isn't even
clear if they will ever become real products. And even if we decide to build them one day, we are still at least 2 years away from a market introduction.

In this case it seems we weren't clear enough about not posting on the Internet.

At this point it doesn't make sense to speculate about what is coming or get excited about it, because the product might not even come or might look
completely different. Knowing that information like this might show up on the Internet, we also don't reveal everything at those customer interviews.

Christian

I do appologize for the terrible deed I have done by posting this thread, I have completely misunderstood the meaning behind what the rep and the designer has said to me, it was a terrible mistake on my part and feel horrible about this, I my self was so excited about the new tools, it was like finding out that my wife was pregnant, for a second there I was scared that I'm running out of things to buy from festool and wham these two beauties poped up and I got my panties in a bunch. No one at festool to blame for this, they were just trying to extend a hand and in a way I have spit in it by posting this thread. Once again I greatly appologize for any inconvenience I have caused to anyone and I hope that I can be forgiven for my brain fart.

i guess you were right about excitement that your wife was pregnant.... and then  later found out it was not yours !  lol you mean sorta like that.?  (just kidding)  but funny!

 

[fshanno]

Well, that's that for my old Domino.  Hopelessly outclassed.  Even if the stroke is the same you'll get significantly wider mortises simply because the bit is 2" longer.  Well, I can't afford to be without it and I can't afford another and the value of this one will now start to decrease to zero within a few months of the release of the new one so I won't be able to get anything for it.  I suppose I'll just wait until the patents expire and get the Harbor Freight Mortiser for $139 plus $20 for the two year replacement warranty.

LoL!!!! Harbor freight!!! LOL,  my buddy's favorite store! actually he bought a pin nailer in there for 15$ he had it for a year and still good.  Hehe, anyway don't worry about your domino's value decreasing, this isn't going to replace the current domino, it will just be an additional tool in the line up, you will not be able to make any mortises smaller then 8mm with the new one and the depth of the mortise is going to be substantially longer. What's great is you will be able to make thru and regular mortise and tenon joints without having to brake out the heavy machinery. No more wobbly railings and posts, you'll be able to get some true stability with a nice 5" or 6" domino.  Endless possibilities.

I don't think so.  The new one in it's production form will be able to do everything the current one can do.  So why would anybody buy the current one?  I'll tell you why.  It will be $600 cheaper that's why.  How much cheaper is Kapex Lite?  See what I mean?  Makes perfect sense.  

But there will be another reason to buy the new one.  It will have a bench top stand that you can mount it in so it will function like a hollow chisel mortiser.  It will have a lever and probably an optional foot operated clamping capability.  But it will totally blow current mortisers away because it will be a one plunge mortise and it will have excellent dust collection.  

 

[AlexThePalex]

i try and error on many occasions but certainly never transfer the cost of my mistakes onto my client.  so say it how you want, there is no right or wrong way to approach this topic,  only opinions which we are all entitled to.

I'm sorry L2theP, but I can't agree with what you say there at all. And neither does business class. It is perfectly normal that development costs are transferred to the client. You say you don't but I'm sure you do too. After all, you're business right? You have to work for a profit, to keep yourself and your family alive. Now if you try something on a certain design and it doesn't work out, that is going to cost you. Are you going to transfer that cost to the one client you meant this design for? No, of course not, that wouldn't be reasonable. But what you do do, is calculate that money as a general post in ALL your prices. So if trying something out doesn't work and it cost you 100 dollar, then you're not going to charge one single client 100 dollar for it, but you will raise your prices a tiny little bit so that all your clients will pay a little bit of money, so that you have a little financial room to spend on learning mistakes. Now say you have 100 clients, then you will raise all your prices with 1 dollar for each of them to get the 100 back. That's just proper business. If you didn't, then you'd go broke very soon.

And that's what a company like Festool also does with its R&D sector. They give a certain amount of money to R&D and that money is paid for by all the people who buy all Festool's products. Now if they have to spend a million dollar on developing a new Kapex, they're not gonna raise the price of the Kapex in such a way that that tool alone has to pay for that million, but they will raise their prices over all their products a bit to get that million back.

 

     

 

[AlexThePalex]

Maybe listen to how Tomas Edison put it: "If I find 10,000 ways something won't work, I haven't failed. I am not discouraged, because every wrong attempt discarded is another step forward"

Alex 
Tesla,  the inventor of AC power and other even more farsighted ideas  was asked about Edison's above quote his response went something like "If my mind worked as slow (as his), it would take me 10,001 try's too [big grin].  thot you would like that.
Craig

Hehe, yeah I know that Craig. Tesla and Edison hated each other with a passion. So of course he's going to put Edison down. But that doesn't change the fact that Tesla himself also worked like that.  [big grin]

 

[L2theP]

i try and error on many occasions but certainly never transfer the cost of my mistakes onto my client.  so say it how you want, there is no right or wrong way to approach this topic,  only opinions which we are all entitled to.

I'm sorry L2theP, but I can't agree with what you say there at all. And neither does business class. It is perfectly normal that development costs are transferred to the client. You say you don't but I'm sure you do too. After all, you're business right? You have to work for a profit, to keep yourself and your family alive. Now if you try something on a certain design and it doesn't work out, that is going to cost you. Are you going to transfer that cost to the one client you meant this design for? No, of course not, that wouldn't be reasonable. But what you do do, is calculate that money as a general post in ALL your prices. So if trying something out doesn't work and it cost you 100 dollar, then you're not going to charge one single client 100 dollar for it, but you will raise your prices a tiny little bit so that all your clients will pay a little bit of money, so that you have a little financial room to spend on learning mistakes. Now say you have 100 clients, then you will raise all your prices with 1 dollar for each of them to get the 100 back. That's just proper business. If you didn't, then you'd go broke very soon.

And that's what a company like Festool also does with its R&D sector. They give a certain amount of money to R&D and that money is paid for by all the people who buy all Festool's products. Now if they have to spend a million dollar on developing a new Kapex, they're not gonna raise the price of the Kapex in such a way that that tool alone has to pay for that million, but they will raise their prices over all their products a bit to get that million back.

 

     

i do agree with you in some respect, what i meant from the begining of that conversation is that there are a lot of tools that go into development that we don't ever get to see or hear about and who knows maybe they would be great sellers or maybe not, but we never get a chance to experiance them or comment on them to tell the company "that yes we would welcome that tool with an open heart".
So lets say there is 20 tools that are being developed, which revenue is paying for that development? the money that they are currently charging us for tools is what's paying for the future and that's fine, but what if only 1 out of those tools makes it on the market due to the fact that 80% of the 400 select people they showed it to don't like it, why not share these development ideas, products and such with end users like all of us here. I mean look at the buzz this thread generated, everyone loved the idea of these future concepts so why not get a bigger bang for your buck and ask 10000 people instead of 500