prototypes

[monte]

...........Some people may also defer the purchase of currently available tools if they thought that something better may be coming in the future. For example, maybe someone who might have bought a new T15 drill tomorrow might now wait until this prototype impact+drill comes to market................

Just one comment I would like to leave here,
Since the bunny is already out of the hat on this subject.
As one that has seen used both prototypes...
Regarding the Domino, and for those you you that may consider holding off on getting one for fear of it being obsolete - if and when the new one comes out.
Don't.
The two Dominos offer a solution to two different sets of issues.
For everything on a smaller scale and for most tasks that the present Domino solves,  the new one (As I have tested it) will not be performing those tasks.
For anyone purchasing any "possibly future" larger capacity Domino the present one will not be gathering any dust at that time, nor will it make the present one obsolete.
It's just an extension of their product line - a bigger, badder version of the Domino.

And as far as the Impact Drill,
the only thing I'll say on the subject - Is that I am still going to be getting the present, new T-15 to compliment my C-12.

cheers,
Roger

In the spirit of full disclosure - I am not employed by Festool & I didn't even get a keychain!

.

 

[fshanno]

I've had a lot of requests for more Domino ideas.....  Well, okay, I've had one request.  Anyway here are 3 more for the new and the current Domino.

1.  Rig the Domino to work on the LR32 system.  All we need is a Guide plate that you pop the Domino on.  You just pop the Domino out of its fence, put on the bit you want and pop it into the LR32 Domino Guide Plate.  No worry about centering and no worry about plunge depth.  This new plate would manage the plunge depth in conjunction with the plunge settings on the Domino.  The process for getting the thing set up would be easier with the Domino that it is with a router.  And the kicker.  You can rotate the Domino on the plate.  Can anyone say "louver".  It becomes a way to use the Domino with the guides in any way you see fit, not just for shelf support.

2.  A fence for sheet goods.  You pop the Domino out of it's standard all-purpose fence, put on the bit you want and pop it into the sheet goods fence.  Pop in the plate/shim for the thickness of plywood or melamine or MDF you are dealing with and go to town.  Mortises reliably centered in your 23/32nd plywood.  So simple a cave man could do it.  Far better than trying to eyeball an etched line.

3.  Now this is really big and hard to get your mind around so hang with me.  How does the Dowel Max work?  Right, you clamp the gizmo on the piece and then bore holes with a drill bit that has a collar.  Simple.  Pretty much the same thing with many of the mortising and doweling jigs for routers.  Those guys seem to have a slight edge over the Domino in accuracy simply because they clamp on the workpiece.  But they are slow.  Still, there are times when you need serious accuracy.  Follow me now.  How about a fence for the Domino that you clamp onto the piece BEFORE YOU HANG THE DOMINO ON IT.  You can do whatever you want to get it clamped in just the right place then pop the Domino on and make the plunge.  Now, this is a very slow process admittedly.  But you're going to get some very serious accuracy.  Most of the time you don't need it but when you do you do.  Some of you out there will protest that you are super accurate with the Domino just like it is.  Fine, I understand that.  But haven't there been a number of threads,  some active right now, where owners are complaining about inaccuracy?  Sure there are.  I think those folks wouldn't mind the extra time it would take to place the clamping fence.  And those of us throwing together kitchens would probably never use it.  Fine, if you don't need it, don't buy it.  But I think it's a very cool idea.

 

[L2theP]

since this post has so many viewers i would just briefly try to state my opinion to see if anyone agrees or not

Festool in my eyes is the best tool company out there for what they do, obviously what they are doing works for them, hence their reputation.
i wish they came out with things a little quicker and for slightly lower prices.  
Lithium Ion impact drivers came out over 3 years ago, Festools will come out in two years there for they have just lost 5 years worth of business on the impact, the kapex in the states same thing, ok i do know it takes longer to develop higher quality tools but then why did the Kapex come out with so many issues for that much money and supposedly so much spent in research?

everyone i talk to and this is trades people i'm referring too not weekend warriors with disposable income (no offense to anyone who is) would buy a festool in a heartbeat if it was just a little cheaper, the most frequently asked question to me is; "is that chop saw going to last 3 times longer and do 3 times more things to cost 3 times more then my hitachi?" or any other brand for that matter, and in some cases even i tend to believe that they are right. but i buy festool because i can afford it, because i am blessed to have been booked even through the toughest times, i buy Festool because i want to and not because i need to as i have gotten by quite well before i ever bought my first festool.

in my opinion I'd rather be booked making $1500 a week then have a single week job a month for $2000, as with every new job i advertise my self, i build up my reputation, i increase my references and contacts. Since my work is based on word of mouth like festool, is it better to sell 1000 units at 1300$ or 10000 at 1000$? Lets be real, festool tools aren't really flying off the shelves, why do you think all festool retailers have to be trained to sell the products? vs any other brand, because they need to sell the buyer on spending 3 to 4 times more for a comperable item from a different retailer which granted isn't the same quality or have same features but will get the job done.

so let's get these tools out here for us to buy and brag about. and if at any point festool decides to start releasing contractor versions that are stripped down of bells and whistles that will come to us at affordable prices it will increase their client base and we all know once you get a festool your not going back to dewalt

 

[justinmcf]

hi L.
i agree with 99 percent of what you said. however, i dont agree with your statement about the impact driver becoming available in two years.
my own opinion is that we will see the impact driver a lot sooner. buts that just a guess.

btw, there is a contractor version of the kapex  ks120 called the kapex ks88 which is available in australia now. it sells for AU$1450, the kapex ks120 sells for AU$1850. as a reference, the makita and dewalt 10 inch models sell for approx AU$1000.

as you have stated, the contractor kapex ks88 does not have all the bells and whistles that the ks120 has. the smart bevel, laser, motor brake, fine bevel adjustment and extra cutting depth are all gone on this new model.

i think this would be a great saw to bring on site. i would never bring my ks120 on site. but, i need to win a few big contracts to justify spending the extra money on the kapex ks88.

regards, justin.

 

[L2theP]

btw, there is a contractor version of the kapex  ks120 called the kapex ks88 which is available in australia now. it sells for AU$1450, the kapex ks120 sells for AU$1850. as a reference, the makita and dewalt 10 inch models sell for approx AU$1000.

as you have stated, the contractor kapex ks88 does not have all the bells and whistles that the ks120 has. the smart bevel, laser, motor brake, fine bevel adjustment and extra cutting depth are all gone on this new model.

regards, justin.

wow that really is stripped down, as the DW717 10" by dewalt goes for around $480US and the festool is $1300US so there is quite a difference.  I personally have the dw718 (12" dual bevel slider) and the dw712 (8-1/2" single bevel slider) aside from my Kapex and i've had them for over 4 years and they still work beautifully, but now they have been dedicated a spot in my shop, the 8-1/2" is set for cutting small moulding due to it's blade stability and accuracy and the 12" is set up for all larger miter cuts.

 

[WarnerConstCo.]

I would stop buying if they stripped stuff down and dumbed it down to make it closer to those other guys prices.

You don't just pay for the tool, you pay for the service.
75% of the tools we can buy here, have the worst customer service ever.

My tools make me money, when I count on a tool and it breaks, fails to preform, or does a lousy job
that means I can't have prime rib on Saturday, instead I have to nuke some hot dogs and mix them up with some baked beans.

I hate hot dogs and beans.

I have seen to many other company's compete on price and they seem to always have a new model every year, what does that say?

I hope festool does not choose to disregard important things just to get tools out sooner and make them cheaper.

Don't do that, I will be mad. [mad]

 

[L2theP]

Warner,
I was not asking for only stripped down tools, i was suggesting that maybe introducing  cheaper, less outfitted models that would become more affordable to the customers that otherwise would not be able to purchase any festool's in the first place would be ideal for festool as it would expand their client base, for example the way they did it with the t15-3 and the back to the basics promotion or provide the option to buy tools without systeiners just in a brown box and take away the price of the systeiner from the tool.  
and i'm not saying bring the price down to rival dewalt or makita or any other inferior manufacturer. 

 

[Frank Pellow]

...
On that note what isn't fair to the end user is the fact that all the development costs of all these prototype tools that might not even make the cut and ever show up on the market are getting factored into the final sale price of the tools that are out there for sale currently. Hence 1300$ chop saw with a 1200$ stand (mft kapex plus extensions).
...

I could not disagree more with your statement.  It is perfectly fair for Festool to do exactly that.

The world need more, not fewer, innovative companies rather than copycat companies.  How do you expect Festool to develop the type of products that we want except by making a profit and then plowing that profit into research and development?

 

[WarnerConstCo.]

Frank- has is, winner, winner, chicken dinner!! [big grin]

 

[peter halle]

There have been many suggestions and comments and questions here about Festool and their offerings and their business decisions.  I will offer the following which is a scan of page 2 of the Festool 2009 catalog for the US.  Maybe this will begin to give some insight:

[attachimg=#]

Peter

 

[L2theP]

"challanging times"? is that why they raised the tool prices in 09? or was the at the end of 08?

 

[WarnerConstCo.]

Helps the re-sale value, which helps me upgrade when the time is right.

You liked those new tools you got to take a peek at right?

How do they pay for for those?

I am in business to make money, most people are.

It takes money to make money.

 

[L2theP]

as you can see per my signature i own quite a bit of festool items. ------ (inappropriate - edited by Shane Holland).  I said it once and will say it again, there is no competitor to festool in my book, there are just other tools.  If festool doesn't make it then i buy from another company.

 

[peter halle]

"challanging times"? is that why they raised the tool prices in 09? or was the at the end of 08?

L2,

I am going to respond to your post as a member.  My moderator hat is off and is in the closet.

Do you really expect that you will get an answer to those questions?  Do you really feel that you would be entitled to know the answers to those questions?  Is there a reason that you would like to share with the members here why you are the one who is entitled to learn the inside business strategies of Festool?  If so, I, as a member, look forward to your responses.

If you really want to get an answer to these questions, why don't you send a PM to Christian and ask him personally? 

Peter Halle - Member of the FOG

 

[John Stevens]

And while we're at it will go ahead and make a 35mm bit for hinges.

Or we partner with Blum (or Grass, or whomever) to offer a hinge that has an oval anchor to be cut by an oscillating domino bit instead of a 35mm circular anchor.  Lotsa ways to skin this cat.

Thanks, fshanno, for all of your ideas.  Please keep em' coming, I'm loving it.  Even if the big Domi never makes it to market, it's still nice to dream.

Regards,

John

 

[L2theP]

Peter,
I meant no disrespect to any member of the fog or your self,  i did not expect an answer or feel in any way entitled.   what i'm entitled to is freedom of speech, so i will post my opinion and if no one wants to respond to what i write then so be it.  I just don't like it when someone spits in my face and then tells me it's raining type of deal.
At this point i feel that this thread has been exhausted and turned into something way off original intent and maybe it is the right time for me to punch out before people who already haven't started a personal vendetta against me do so and i get banned or worst i get my supplier to kick me out of his store.

 

[John Stevens]

1.  Rig the Domino to work on the LR32 system.

Your idea is better than what I'm about to suggest, but if you want something right now, try this.  Use the LR32 to make two rows of 5mm holes spaced exactly 74mm apart in a thin piece of ply or MDF.  Register the 5mm pins in the face of the Domi in those holes.  This will orient the dominos perpendicular to the line of holes, which is what I would want if using dominos in place of shelf pins.  (The bit will bore right through the jig the first time it's used between each pair of holes.)

If you want this type of jig to enable you to rotate the orientation of the dominos somewhat, make a row of 5mm holes on each of two pieces of ply or mdf and join them together so they can be adjusted vertically and horizontally relative to each other.  Hard to describe what I mean, but with your imagination, you'll come up with a better idea, I'm sure.

Regards,

John

 

[JeromeM]

since this post has so many viewers i would just briefly try to state my opinion to see if anyone agrees or not

Festool in my eyes is the best tool company out there for what they do, obviously what they are doing works for them, hence their reputation.

I am with you there.

i wish they came out with things a little quicker

Probably what every one would like.

and for slightly lower prices.

Why? What ever the price people (especially most from NA) will always want it cheaper.

Lithium Ion impact drivers came out over 3 years ago, Festools will come out in two years there for they have just lost 5 years worth of business on the impact,

Have they?? from what I have seen many contractors use up the "cheap" tools in less than a year.

If Festool gets it right (not just soon) then their tool may well last many times longer and be that much better.

Also don't forget that though for you the US is the most important market, for Festool it isn't and the impact driver seems to be for the US only.
Of course it has potential, but Festool has a limited number of development people and the US market is not the most important yet.

the kapex in the states same thing, ok i do know it takes longer to develop higher quality tools but then why did the Kapex come out with so many issues for that much money and supposedly so much spent in research?

I agree that was not a good introduction. But the after sales service was second to none.

everyone i talk to and this is trades people i'm referring too not weekend warriors with disposable income (no offense to anyone who is) would buy a festool in a heartbeat if it was just a little cheaper, the most frequently asked question to me is; "is that chop saw going to last 3 times longer and do 3 times more things to cost 3 times more then my hitachi?" or any other brand for that matter, and in some cases even i tend to believe that they are right. but i buy festool because i can afford it, because i am blessed to have been booked even through the toughest times, i buy Festool because i want to and not because i need to as i have gotten by quite well before i ever bought my first festool.

Lets be real, festool tools aren't really flying off the shelves, why do you think all festool retailers have to be trained to sell the products? vs any other brand, because they need to sell the buyer on spending 3 to 4 times more for a comperable item from a different retailer which granted isn't the same quality or have same features but will get the job done.

An Adz, hammer, rip saw, and a hatchet will also get the job done [eek]

if at any point festool decides to start releasing contractor versions that are stripped down of bells and whistles that will come to us at affordable prices it will increase their client base and we all know once you get a festool your not going back to dewalt

What is an affordable price??  $XX less??

I have seen so many people complain that the quality of Dewalt, Black and Decker, Porta Cable (insert your brand here) etc have dropped over time.

The reason why has most times been that they have either dropped (or not kept pace with inflation) the prices to stay competitive, and to do that they have had to reduce robustness or overall quality
Or they have just lowered the quality bit by bit to make a bigger profit.

So if Festool decides to start releasing contractor versions that are stripped down of bells and whistles that will come to us at lower prices it may increase their client base. But it will not ever get people to stick with Festool Because it will not be that much different from the rest and will no longer be the highest quality tool we have now.

Those people who buy on price will almost never buy Festool.
Those who do the bang it up quick new build will probably not (may be should not) buy Festool.

Those who buy on TCO or TQO. Those who do on site upgrades, higher margin jobs, who want the best quality tool for the job will (or may) buy Top quality Festools

There is a great book called "CHEAP - High Cost Of Discount Culture" by Ellen Ruppel Shell that I recommend as excellent background reading, and "The Corporation" movie for even more interesting background.

 

[honeydoman]

jerome,

I agree with you.  lots of people want cheep stuff and then complain when it falls about or dosent last 10 years. 

buy good quality tools for good quality work.  they usually go hand in hand, not all the time but a good part.

festool makes quality tools that last a long time so the value is outstanding and the cheep tools you will go through several before festools even think about breaking down.

and the service is the best I have ever seen.

we all want to get paid for quality work dont we?  well festool want to get paid also..... for quality tools and service.

 

[Bob Marino]

Jerome,

I think you have stated it well.
To amplify the point about bringing tools to market quicker, Festool would rather get it right than get it quicker. I look at that as an example of Festool's long term business approach - better to lose some initial sales/customers/market share on a product than to bring out that product before it meets their (Festool) standards and risk later problems - most important being (IMHO) reputation and customer confidence. Festool has analyzed the market and decided that the best way for them to go is to appeal to the "pro/higher end" market rather than the middle or lower end market...and yes that means higher prices to keep and remain the leader in that market, providing proper support. This is not something "whispered to me" in confidence from Festool and I am not speaking for Festool - I am not in that position; it's just from having been a dealer for a while.

Bob