RAS 115

[Forrest Anderson]

It is interesting to note that Festool sells wire brushes for the RAS115, advertising them "for the removal of rust and slag" - but they are NAINA (not available in North America).

For those who are new here, I have taken the liberty of reproducing a post I made in July 2007 about the RAS:

The RAS 115 looks an awful lot like an angle grinder; I also see in the current catalog that there is a "FiberFix sanding pad with arbor for grinding disks" listed in the catalog.

But I see no grinding disks themselves.

Does anyone know what grinding disks it accepts, and has anyone used this for metalwork? I need something that will clean up steel after being cut/worked with a torch...

Good question!  The entry in the US catalogue for RAS115 accessories looks like this:

Note how there are hard and soft StickFix hook and loop pads (484172 and 484173) and a FibreFix pad "with arbor for grinding discs" (485298).

Festool have tried to explain the difference in their FAQ database:

----------------
Question :
What is the difference between the FiberFix and the StickFix sanding pad for the RAS 115?
 
Answer :
The StickFix pad accepts hook and loop sanding discs. The FiberFix pad has an arbor to attach grinding discs.
----------------

At first sight it appears that we can attach grinding disks to the RAS115, but there's a catch! If we look at the US version of the RAS 115 official manual, we get this list of list of speeds for different materials and a warning:

This warning, in no uncertain terms, rules out the attachment of metal grinding disks, and the speed chart makes no mention of using the sander on metal. It therefore appears that the US catalogue supplies a grinding attachment, but the US manual prohibits its use on metal.

Exploring a bit further, the UK catalogue has lots more accessories for the RAS115, and UK customers can also get the RAS180, which is larger:

And look - two types of cup brushes and a circular brush - "for removal of rust and slag" and "for paint and rust removal".

There are also two more items of interest:

• Clamping nut SM-M14/D115, For RAS 115, for securing Fiberfix sanding discs, 439581
• Spark trap for dust extractor D 50 FL, For use when sanding materials that generate sparks, 484733

So there are quite a few metal grinding accessories available for customers in the UK! Let's see what the UK manual says:

Notice how it says "Designed for sanding wood, plastics, metal..." and how the speed chart includes "sanding painted metal to remove rust".

In summary, it seems that UK customers are allowed to sand/grind metal, whilst US customers are not. Presumably this was one of the conditions for UL approval for introducing the machine to the US market. I therefore suspect that the inclusion of the "FiberFix sanding pad with arbor for grinding disks" in the US catalogue is only there for users who want to use disks designed for grinding stone and concrete, which is allowed.

Forrest

Note that the references to catalogues and manuals were for the versions available in 2007, and changes may have been made since then.

You'll see from the above that Festool also sells the RAS180, which is the RAS115's bigger brother. However this is also a NAINA item. Here is a comparison between the two siblings - note the difference in weight and power, and also that they are 1/3 to 1/2 slower than typical angle grinders :

Forrest

 

[AlexThePalex]

That's a very nice and informative post Forrest.

But at one point I think you draw the wrong conclusion about grinding metal.

Notice how it says "Designed for sanding wood, plastics, metal..." and how the speed chart includes "sanding painted metal to remove rust".

In summary, it seems that UK customers are allowed to sand/grind metal, whilst US customers are not. Presumably this was one of the conditions for UL approval for introducing the machine to the US market. I therefore suspect that the inclusion of the "FiberFix sanding pad with arbor for grinding disks" in the US catalogue is only there for users who want to use disks designed for grinding stone and concrete, which is allowed.

Now perhaps I don't know the complete spectre of what "grinding" exactly means in the English language, but those fiber disks don't cut the metal, they only sand it.

When I google around for "metal grinding discs" all I get is these discs:

Whereas the FiberFix sanding pad with arbor is probably meant for these:

The first disc type really cuts the metal itself, but the second disc type, the Fiber discs, only treat the surface, any stuff that's ON the metal, and not the metal itself. The same goes for the various wire brushes the UK website has. They only treat the surface, since rust or paint is ON the surface of metal.

And nowhere in the UK references you provided above does it mention you can attach discs that really CUT the metal. So when it comes to that US and UK (or European) users have the same limitations. Only difference why this might be expressed more distinctively in the US manual is that they have such a sue happy society if anything goes wrong, whereas Europeans simply say "Don't be stupid" and expect people to have some responsablity of themselves.

 

[Mac]

Great post Forrest, thanks.

Rick

 

[score0matic]

By refering to the RAS as a "Grinder" (clearing up the mode of operation in my own mind) I think i have caused the very confusion that Festool was trying to avoid  when they consistantly refer to it as a "rotary sander".  However Festool having a (by comparison) very Famous product called the  "Rotex sander"  has given a "misimpression"  of the RAS.  The standard metrics of comparison  point to the Rotex as being larger and more powerful, and the intentional lack of comparison to grinders, the fact that there are not Similar offerings by other companies,  The term "rotary",  for tool users, is a descriptive for Micro tools, Drywall routers, and large electro-pneumatic concrete drills, all contribute to the ras having a lack of idenity in the minds of tool users 

 

[WarnerConstCo.]

Alex, your second disk in the picture reminds me of what we used to call soft disks.  We would put those ona big grinder and use them to clean steel before it was painted.

I want it's big brother and some of those wire wheels.

Ok, I sanded down a cast iron flange then.

 

[Matthew Schenker]

Hey Everyone,
Glad to see my review of the RAS is still helpful.  I've been using it more than a lot of other tools lately, since I have a lot of paint-removal jobs these days.

I agree with those who say the RAS is more of a grinder than a sander, and its dust-collection is certainly quite different from all other Festool sanders.  It's more like debris removal, but it works fairly well.

Thanks,
Matt

 

[Frank Pellow]

Hi Matthew, it's nice the hear from you.  Yes, your review has stood the test of time.  I read it when you first wrote it but didn't do anyhting about getting the sander at the time.  After a recent re-read, the sander has moved right to the top of my 'tools to get' list.

 

[monstrol]

Hi, I have both the Rotex 150 and the RAS 115.  The Rotex is great for sanding and prepping bare wood or previously stripped wood.  And the switch between course and fine is great when sanding a project where all of a sudden you notice a gouge or something that needs a little extra something as you are moving on.  The RAS is perfect if your wanting to remove paint from a surface.  I tried to remove paint from the edge of some doors I am refinishing and the Rotex with 80 grit Brilliant on the course mode and got nowhere.  When I used the RAS and 80 grit Rubin, since I haven't ordered any Saphir and such, it took the paint off fast and still left the
Rubin fairly clean.  Go figure.
Matthew Jones

 

[AlexThePalex]

I tried to remove paint from the edge of some doors I am refinishing and the Rotex with 80 grit Brilliant on the course mode and got nowhere. 

Really? I'm seriously wondering what kind of super paint that was. Because in my reality, 80 grit brilliant on a door edge will get me to bare wood in seconds.

 

[Brice Burrell]

I tried to remove paint from the edge of some doors I am refinishing and the Rotex with 80 grit Brilliant on the course mode and got nowhere. 

Really? I'm seriously wondering what kind of super paint that was. Because in my reality, 80 grit brilliant on a door edge will get me to bare wood in seconds.

Well, that would depend on how many coats of paint there were on the door. A 100+ year door could have a dozen or more coats, I wouldn't think 80 grit Brilliant would do the job quickly.

 

[WarnerConstCo.]

I've had some with 25+ coats of paint, they just laugh at 80 grit.  Hell, they laugh at 36 grit saphir too!!

 

[monstrol]

It was an old door with at least 4 coats, probably full of lead and glossy latex being the last.  My experience has shown me the RAS removed the paint much faster than the Rotex.  I was a little skeptical when told that during a Gary Katz roadshow and the Festool rep sent me a demo and low and behold it was true.  I am not sure if it is because there are no holes in the RAS paper or what.  I was not thrilled about buying another sander but the RAS will save me time and money on exterior trim work, no more burning and greatly reduced scraping.  I would have liked to get the TS55 or the newer drills and not another sander.  It is also easier to handle than my 6 in. Rotex.  I still am getting the swivel dust collection figured out. It also helps to turn the rpms or whatever down as not to heat up the paint and clog the paper. Also the dust/debris collector attachment is not round on the sander, it isn't a big deal but it seems odd.
Matthew Jones

 

[Brice Burrell]

....Also the dust/debris collector attachment is not round on the sander, it isn't a big deal but it seems odd.
Matthew Jones

Festool does this on a few tools, it's to make the vac connection port more compact to help keep it out of the way.

 

[monstrol]

....Also the dust/debris collector attachment is not round on the sander, it isn't a big deal but it seems odd.
Matthew Jones

Festool does this on a few tools, it's to make the vac connection port more compact to help keep it out of the way.

Oh.. okay ,well thanks for the input.

 

[Matthew Schenker]

Good Morning,
I have used Rotext sanders and the RAS on the same surfaces.  The RAS takes the paint off way faster than the Rotex.  Sometimes, it's so fast you have to watch it carefully.

I agree with those who say to use lower speeds when removing paint.  The sanding disks can get gummed up pretty fast at high speeds.

Thanks,
Matthew

 

[Dave Ronyak]

Especially latex paint, or shellac, both of which will soften/melt into a gummy substance when heated up by the friction of sanding.  A clogged disk simply generates friction as its abrasive particles are not open to cut into the old finish.  I've removed a lot of old multi-layered paint and cracked plaster with my RO 125, and from that work have determined that lower speeds and coarser grits work best, e.g. 36 or 25 grit.  The RAS 125 is tempting me, too. 

Dave R.

 

[garnet_steen]

Thank you for posting the comparison of the Rotex and the RAS. The RAS does not get nearly the same amount of attention and I was wondering how a paint removal head-to-head with the Rotex would turn out. I was wondering what you thought of the combination of the RAS and the ETS 125 (or ETS 150/3).  Setting aside the corner and detail sanders, the combination of the the RAS and the ETS would seem to enable any surface treatment without the weight and balance issues that can make the Rotex a handful, especially it seems, on vertical, overhead or small surfaces.

[attachimg=#]

P.S. I'm not sure if I attached the image correctly. See page 167
http://www.festool.co.uk/images/gb_downloads/1011_catalogue/09_sanding.pdf

Hi, I have both the Rotex 150 and the RAS 115.  The Rotex is great for sanding and prepping bare wood or previously stripped wood.  And the switch between course and fine is great when sanding a project where all of a sudden you notice a gouge or something that needs a little extra something as you are moving on.  The RAS is perfect if your wanting to remove paint from a surface.  I tried to remove paint from the edge of some doors I am refinishing and the Rotex with 80 grit Brilliant on the course mode and got nowhere.  When I used the RAS and 80 grit Rubin, since I haven't ordered any Saphir and such, it took the paint off fast and still left the
Rubin fairly clean.  Go figure.
Matthew Jones

 

[peter halle]

Garnet,

A couple of years ago I was wondering the same thing.  Here is a little experiment I tried to compare the RAS 115 versus the Rotex 150.  (note that the first photo is after 5 minutes with the rotex.  The rest were about the progress with the RAS.  Comparison Experiment RAS vs Rotex 

Peter

 

[Matthew Schenker]

Garnet_Steen,

Thank you for posting the comparison of the Rotex and the RAS. The RAS does not get nearly the same amount of attention and I was wondering how a paint removal head-to-head with the Rotex would turn out. I was wondering what you thought of the combination of the RAS and the ETS 125 (or ETS 150/3).  Setting aside the corner and detail sanders, the combination of the the RAS and the ETS would seem to enable any surface treatment without the weight and balance issues that can make the Rotex a handful, especially it seems, on vertical, overhead or small surfaces.

There is no comparison between a Rotex and the RAS where paint removal is concerned!

The RAS works much more effectively at this.  However, the RAS is not as easy to control as the Rotex, and it throws around much more debris.  With practice, you'll get to the point where you can use the RAS to collect more debris by learning how to position the brushes and vacuum area.

Now, considering vertical and overhead work: both the RAS and the Rotex will be tiring to hold for any length of time.  Still, the RAS would be more effective.  Just make sure you have a good plan for all that debris that's going to come showering down onto your face!

Bottom line: if pure material removal is your goal, the RAS cannot be beaten -- not even close!

By the way, I also reviewed the Rotex sanders, where I get into some related details.  Check out these links:
http://festoolownersgroup.com/festool-tool-reviews/rotex-ro-150-feq-sander/
http://festoolownersgroup.com/festool-tool-reviews/rotex-ro-125-sander/

Glad to see my reviews are still helpful.

Stay in touch,
Matthew

 

[garnet_steen]

Matthew,

Thank you so much for your reply. Beyond paint removal, I was hoping that the RAS could handle rough surface preparation down to a level where one of the ETS models (maybe the 150/3) could take over and complete the fine sanding. What do you think?

Based on the chart I posted, it seems that the two sanders (RAS+ETS) cover the full spectrum of sanding stages without a gap. Now, I realize that the Rotex might be faster (but less agile and heavier) than the ETS at some of the middle sanding stages and cleaner (but slower) than the RAS at some of the initial sanding stages, but the RAS+ETS combo has other advantages that would lead me to go that route as long as I can take a piece of wood from encrusted with old paint to a find finish.

Garnet_Steen,

Thank you for posting the comparison of the Rotex and the RAS. The RAS does not get nearly the same amount of attention and I was wondering how a paint removal head-to-head with the Rotex would turn out. I was wondering what you thought of the combination of the RAS and the ETS 125 (or ETS 150/3).  Setting aside the corner and detail sanders, the combination of the the RAS and the ETS would seem to enable any surface treatment without the weight and balance issues that can make the Rotex a handful, especially it seems, on vertical, overhead or small surfaces.

There is no comparison between a Rotex and the RAS where paint removal is concerned!

The RAS works much more effectively at this.  However, the RAS is not as easy to control as the Rotex, and it throws around much more debris.  With practice, you'll get to the point where you can use the RAS to collect more debris by learning how to position the brushes and vacuum area.

Now, considering vertical and overhead work: both the RAS and the Rotex will be tiring to hold for any length of time.  Still, the RAS would be more effective.  Just make sure you have a good plan for all that debris that's going to come showering down onto your face!

Bottom line: if pure material removal is your goal, the RAS cannot be beaten -- not even close!

By the way, I also reviewed the Rotex sanders, where I get into some related details.  Check out these links:
http://festoolownersgroup.com/festool-tool-reviews/rotex-ro-150-feq-sander/
http://festoolownersgroup.com/festool-tool-reviews/rotex-ro-125-sander/

Glad to see my reviews are still helpful.

Stay in touch,
Matthew