Re: Domino

[JPF Woodworking]

I have been on the fence quite awhile waiting for the opportunity to jump into the Domino camp. Well it looks like I might have landed a sizable  commission which will consist of case good built-ins. Typically I use 3/4" pre-finished birch plywood for the car-case, joining the corners with a dado-rabbit joint. This system works quite well and I can produce the joint quite quickly on the TS using a 3/8 dado setup. But not having to "allow" for this joint when cutting the sheets goods down to size is attracting me towards the domino (read: use a simple butt joint to join the corners) So here are my questions:

1. Joining 3/4" sheet stock to form a rectangular box- can this be done quickly and efficiently with the domino 500? I am assuming that I would use a 4 X 17 X 20mm domino ( I would appreciate any recommendations about this)

2. What would be recommended spacing for the dominos?

3. Would using the domino in this situation help to simplify clamping or  would the use of pocket screws, or other be also necessary?

4. Has anyone seen any video (tutorials)about case goods and the domino?

In advance of all courtesies extended, thank you!

John

 

[erock]

John,

  I use 6mm dominos with 19mm ply.  Good rule is to use a domino 1/3 the thickness of the material you are using.

For spacing I use the pin on the domino and reference off the front and back of the panel for two of the mortises

put a mortise in the middle of the panel using the domino "wings", sorry, I can not remember the correct name for

them at the moment.

I use the pocket screws with the dominos.

If you are using the domino with sheet goods, I recommend the Domiplate to help speed up the process.

Hope this helps you out.

Eric

 

[bellchippy]

John

I am fitting out a dressing room at present using birch plywood. I use 4 5mmx30 dominos per joint it works great.

 

[semenza]

Dominos and pocket screws are a great combo. I build all my cases that way.  You save a bit of material which may or may not matter  , and you can dispense with the additional calculation  to allow for the dados.  You also don't have to hold the pieces together while fastening. The Dominos will keep one piece standing upright on the other, hands free while you do your clamping or put screws in.

I use 6mm x 40 or 5mm x 30. Spaced 6 " - 8" apart. Alternated with pocket screws. I make sure I have screws at the ends of the run to ensure that the front and back edges/corners get pulled tight. 

If you use 6mm x 40 Dominos be sure to use the 12mmm or 15mm plunge depth setting for the face mortises otherwise you will go through the other side. Coupled with 28mm or 25mm plunge setting for the end mortises.

If you use 15mm x 30 you just use the 15mm depth setting for both sides of the mortise.

Seth

 

[Nick C]

Let me add my vote for the domino/ pocket-hole-screws combination. Dominos provide the alignment and shear strength; pocket screws the "clamping" action. I don't even bother with gluing the butt edges--just the dominos themselves--so squeeze-out is no longer an issue. I think 4mm dominos would be too small. I usually use 6mm. And heed the advice from Seth--make sure you change the plunge depth, if the domino length requires it, to keep from blowing through the vertical case parts. And--a sort of "best practice" is to use the narrow mortise setting for only one domino per joint near the edge that will face outward, to ensure that these edges are in the same plane. The middle setting can be used for the other dominos. So, give some thought to your workflow so that you will reliably change plunge depth and vary mortise width.

 

[bellchippy]

Let me add my vote for the domino/ pocket-hole-screws combination. Dominos provide the alignment and shear strength; pocket screws the "clamping" action. I don't even bother with gluing the butt edges--just the dominos themselves--so squeeze-out is no longer an issue. I think 4mm dominos would be too small. I usually use 6mm. And heed the advice from Seth--make sure you change the plunge depth, if the domino length requires it, to keep from blowing through the vertical case parts. And--a sort of "best practice" is to use the narrow mortise setting for only one domino per joint near the edge that will face outward, to ensure that these edges are in the same plane. The middle setting can be used for the other dominos. So, give some thought to your workflow so that you will reliably change plunge depth and vary mortise width.

Technically 6mm are correct for 3/4 ply, but so easy to forget to change plunge depth when there is a lot going on resulting in a ruined job or possibly a nasty accident the strength difference in a situation  like that is minimal. I would use 5mm at least until you get used to it, the Domino is a great tool but there is a small learning curve.

 

[Nick C]

Bellchippy makes a good point, and a good case for using 5mm dominos whose length will allow a consistent plunge depth in all the workpieces. A carcase requires many dominos, and a consistent plunge depth means one less thing to remember as you plod through the workflow. Just bear in mind the need for shear strength when deciding on domino spacing.  Do the horizontal members need to support nothing? a row of books? a 400lb Viking Wall oven?

 

[JPF Woodworking]

Great advice everyone- Thanks! I especially appreciate the confirmation about the pocket screws/domino combination. Seems to make perfect sense. Since the carcasses will (mostly) be hidden (think kitchen cabinets) I was actually thinking about allowing the domino to go completely through the vertical sides creating a "dovetail" like appearance but I really don't want to take a chance of an accident so I'll probably follow the advice posted about the depth of cut.

Now, how about the face frames? I normally use biscuits and pocket screws wherever possible. As you already know this essentially eliminates the need for any mechanical fasteners.  I cut one continuous slot with a router on the carcass so to eliminate any issues with biscuit alignment. Not sure the domino can beat the biscuit joiner in this manner. But maybe someone has a different opinion...

Thanks again for the advice. Now to "sell" this purchase to the bookkeeper.....should be interesting...

JPF

 

[BUTTER]

Another advantage of butt joints is that you can edgeband parts after all the milling is done (no dado blowing through the end.)

We use pocket screws when an end panel is going to be exposed (or apply an end panel if appropriate.)
Otherwise we pre-drill and edge screw.  A properly pre-drilled steel screw will be stronger than a pocketscrew IMO.  Just remember to have a minimum distance of two inches from screw to edge of panel (AWI standards)

 

[Brice Burrell]

Another advantage of butt joints is that you can edgeband parts after all the milling is done (no dado blowing through the end.)

We use pocket screws when an end panel is going to be exposed (or apply an end panel if appropriate.)
Otherwise we pre-drill and edge screw.  A properly pre-drilled steel screw will be stronger than a pocketscrew IMO.  Just remember to have a minimum distance of two inches from screw to edge of panel (AWI standards)

If you use good self cutting screws you can skip the pre-drilling to save a lot of time.

 

[BUTTER]

Another advantage of butt joints is that you can edgeband parts after all the milling is done (no dado blowing through the end.)

We use pocket screws when an end panel is going to be exposed (or apply an end panel if appropriate.)
Otherwise we pre-drill and edge screw.  A properly pre-drilled steel screw will be stronger than a pocketscrew IMO.  Just remember to have a minimum distance of two inches from screw to edge of panel (AWI standards)

If you use good self cutting screws you can skip the pre-drilling to save a lot of time.

Brice, I must respectfully disagree.
Particularly when going through cross-grain into edgegrain, one needs a clearance hole, even when using screws with type-17 tips and nibs on the head.

 

[JPF Woodworking]

Great point about the edge banding! Most of my cabinet require a face frame but I am toying with the idea of applying all of this domino information to drawer construction. I think I remember a discussion here about drawers using the domino. The dominoes actually are left exposed like a dovetail. Building drawers in this manner would be very strong and pretty straight forward, especially with edge banding.......Just as a footnote, I am a bit tired of router-dovetailing/plywood blowout/ tedious edge banding during drawer construction so I am looking for a simpler method (after all these years).......

I can clearly see why edge screwing would be stronger than  pocket screws but with properly spaced dominoes along the edge of  3/4" birch plywood is the extra strength really necessary? I am assuming that you pre-drill these screw holes during the assembly process as it  would be necessary to pre-drill into the "end grain" of the mating piece in order to prevent splitting.

It would seem to me that pre-drilling pocket holes before the assembly process would be simpler. I guess what I am trying to say is that the screws (in either case) are simply to draw tight the joint between the mating parts and the dominoes- no clamping will be necessary. Once the glue dries that mechanical fasteners are done.

As usual I am most appreciative for all the insightful information and everyones opinions....

John

 

[promhandicam]

. . . And--a sort of "best practice" is to use the narrow mortise setting for only one domino per joint near the edge that will face outward, to ensure that these edges are in the same plane. The middle setting can be used for the other dominos. . .

I personally always place a tight mortice at the rear edges of the carcase, referencing off of the pins on the domino so that when I fit the back panel there aren't any unsightly gaps.

 

[jacko9]

John,

if you are going to have a face frame and or back, then the domino joint 6mm spaced every 6 to 8" will be plenty stong by itself.  You can add screws for peace of mind but, I don't think they are needed.

Jack

 

[skids]

John,

if you are going to have a face frame and or back, then the domino joint 6mm spaced every 6 to 8" will be plenty stong by itself.  You can add screws for peace of mind but, I don't think they are needed.

Jack

Agreed...Total overkill if you ask me. Not like they are subject to load. I used pocket screws and a biscuit for initial tread joint at the top of my stairs and I thought that was overkill. But that subject to movement and my weight. I plan on getting fatter, so it should all work out great.

 

[Kevin Stricker]

Two 5x30 dominoes for alignment (front and back)and pocket screws and/or confirmats for strength is my system for pre finished cabinet materials.  Trying to glue up boxes that are pre finished is really a time killer for minimal strength gains.  It takes me three times as long to glue a domino only cabinet compared to a Confirmat/domino cabinet.  With prefinished materials the only time I go with glue/domino only is when it is freestanding or has exposed ends.

Also i believe AWI standards are 37mm from edge for screws which is 1.5". I know they are for Confirmats which is my screw of choice.  So for referencing my domino I use the edge of the fence vs the pins.  That lets me have a screw at 37mm and keep a domino near each end for alignment.  Also the domiplate is a must have accessory, it makes box making so much easier.

In my experience a pocket screw in plywood is always stronger than face screw into edge grain in plywood.  I find the reverse to be true with PB and MDF.  I like Confirmats because I know they give a very strong joint in all three materials and save me some time over pocket screws.  I do pocket screw my stretchers and nailers  though, just not bottoms or tops. 

As for drawers, I like domidrawers but don't like how long they take me to build.  Definitely faster than a dovetail but a drawer lock or rabbit and groove joint is much faster if you are doing more than a few and more in line with joinery expected from a plywood drawer.  As for Dominoes and face frames I like a few for referencing, but it is slower than a biscuit and spline joint for sure.

It's funny because if you ask 10 cabinetmakers their favorite techniques you are likely to get 10 different answers.  I would look at your current system and decide what you are trying to improve on.  If it is accuracy then the domino might be a good answer.  If it is speed then a Kreg Foreman is probably a better bet.  If you want to scrap everything and try a whole new approach then it's back to the drawing boards.  My personal belief is that a domino is not going to increase your profitability, a biscuit joiner can do the same tasks and is faster.  It can give you better accuracy, and possibly open doors to new techniques but its not the magic bullet of box building.