Removing floor tile

[Paul G]

Not real clear as to why sheetrock would be considered an inferior product for said application.  I guess the question I have for you is what kind of actions are going to be performed in this shower that makes you worry about destroying a tiled wall  ???    ???

I consider sheetrock inferior because it is weaker. I realize its widely used and accepted, I just prefer the strength of cement board. I know most folks think it's overkill but that's how I roll. Heck some folks consider Kerdie overkill, just green board and tile and grout. No thanks. As for what's going on in the shower, this is a family friendly forum  [eek] [big grin]  I've got a full bathroom redo coming up in a few months and I'll be using cement board everywhere, my neighbor did the same a few years ago and no concerns of mold and that solid sound when tapping the walls is pretty cool, and you can hang heavy stuff anywhere on the walls, mollys aren't ripping out.

 

[jtparrothead]

Not real clear as to why sheetrock would be considered an inferior product for said application.  I guess the question I have for you is what kind of actions are going to be performed in this shower that makes you worry about destroying a tiled wall  ???    ???

I consider sheetrock inferior because it is weaker. I realize its widely used and accepted, I just prefer the strength of cement board. I know most folks think it's overkill but that's how I roll. Heck some folks consider Kerdie overkill, just green board and tile and grout. No thanks. As for what's going on in the shower, this is a family friendly forum   [eek] [big grin]   I've got a full bathroom redo coming up in a few months and I'll be using cement board everywhere, my neighbor did the same a few years ago and no concerns of mold and that solid sound when tapping the walls is pretty cool, and you can hang heavy stuff anywhere on the walls, mollys aren't ripping out.

Well, the people that consider Kerdi overkill don't give a crap about their customer or long term how the job holds up.  I generally just rip out to studs and go back greenboard all the way around, kerdi the shower enclosure from floor to ceiling, tile the shower up and call it a day.  My dad prefers the hardboard method but he's pretty old school and I don't think he quite understands the waterproofing system.  He generally just stands around and cuts tile for me and claims to be half blind until the job is finished and then he can spot any small detail that I might have missed.  ;D

 

[JoggleStick]

The biggest difference I've seen with cement board and drywall is when after a few years you go to repair or replace a broken tile or soap holder, etc. it is so much easier to complete a repair on cement sheeting than drywall. Cement sheeting is a much more stable and durable substrate. When I demolish a bathroom and find drywall instead of cement sheet- it is a sure sign of low standard 'built to minimum price' work. Installing drywall instead of cement sheet (in a wet area tiled wall) is nothing more than giving the client an inferior substandard job. Sure, it can meet the 'standards' but that is barely minimum standard, certainly not 'best practice'.
I won't do that to my clients, and my clients know and appreciate that.... But I'm quite happy to hear people doing this. Why? Because those guys are absolutely guaranteeing that I never run out of future work.......

 

[jtparrothead]

The biggest difference I've seen with cement board and drywall is when after a few years you go to repair or replace a broken tile or soap holder, etc. it is so much easier to complete a repair on cement sheeting than drywall. Cement sheeting is a much more stable and durable substrate. When I demolish a bathroom and find drywall instead of cement sheet- it is a sure sign of low standard 'built to minimum price' work. Installing drywall instead of cement sheet (in a wet area tiled wall) is nothing more than giving the client an inferior substandard job. Sure, it can meet the 'standards' but that is barely minimum standard, certainly not 'best practice'.
I won't do that to my clients, and my clients know and appreciate that.... But I'm quite happy to hear people doing this. Why? Because those guys are absolutely guaranteeing that I never run out of future work.......

Sorry, but you're dead wrong unless it was drywall with no moisture membrane.  a lot of people in the tiling trade fail to realize that cement board isn't the answer to wet applications unless there is some sort of moisture barrier behind the cement board.  Sure the cement board is harder but it absorbs water readily and without a drainage solution you're just compounding the problem because it takes longer for the problem to become known with cement compared to sheetrock.  If you Kerdi drywall the end result is 100x better than a conventional mud base shower pan/ cement board set up.  I've been using the Kerdi system for about 5 years now and I have NEVER had a call back,  I don't call zero callbacks in about 80 bathrooms sub standard.

 

[JoggleStick]

Well, I'm not wrong, i only speak with well over 30 years of experience.
To suggest I'm wrong, : chuckle : chuckle.... well your youth, inexperience and arrogance are evident for all to see. There are many ways to skin the cat, and get it right, or wrong. To suggest otherwise... Well see my comment above. Thanks for the laugh buddy.

Oh and by the way... I give a 10 year unconditional money back Guarantee on all my workmanship,
And in well over thirty years, well there has never been a claim.
If your wet area work hasn't passed at least 10 years... Well you loose the pissing contest, buddy.

 

[Paul G]

We all know the power of German engineering, if its good enough for the engineers at Schluter its good enough for me.  

Another thought about this aspect of the discussion, you're absolutely right that the makers of Kerdie are fine with using sheetrock, but when I first used kerdie about 8 yrs ago their instructions were to do the walls first and then the pan with a little overlap up the wall. I was surprised by this instruction because I would do the opposite, pan first then the walls which gives the proper 'shingling' to keep water headed to the drain. I don't know if they still instruct the same, if so my only guess is they do so to not encourage people to step on the pan membrane and possibly damage it and prompt a claim. A few layers of heavy cardboard takes care of that and the watershed gets done right. My point in all this is just because a manufacturer recommends something doesn't mean it's the best way.

 

[JoggleStick]

Interestingly, in our Australian Standard (waterproofing) there is a glaring fault in the design of the tiles fixed on a hob. It shows a vertical joint facing up into the void under the shower screen... Which will cause premature failure if built this way....
So, whilst there is no literal requirement for the shower to be built this way... It still remains that for an inexperienced person reading the Standard it is actually giving an diagram of "How not to tile a hob"...

We have the same legal requirements in that the Standards say they are not designed to be a 'limiting' factor, but rather a 'minimum requirement' with recognition of new technology, methods and materials being the anticipated norm...

 

[jtparrothead]

Well, I'm not wrong, i only speak with well over 30 years of experience.
To suggest I'm wrong, : chuckle : chuckle.... well your youth, inexperience and arrogance are evident for all to see. There are many ways to skin the cat, and get it right, or wrong. To suggest otherwise... Well see my comment above. Thanks for the laugh buddy.

Oh and by the way... I give a 10 year unconditional money back Guarantee on all my workmanship,
And in well over thirty years, well there has never been a claim.
If your wet area work hasn't passed at least 10 years... Well you loose the pissing contest, buddy.

Hey Joggle, your smug is showing.  It's great you have 30 years experience, I only have 14 but since I'm only 30 years old that means I've been doing this dang near half my life.  every enclosure I built in year 1-4 is still holding strong. You're right there is more than one way to skin a cat and even after learning this trade from an old German fellow that defected after WW2 I'm still convinced the new German way is the way to go.  And btw, ten years on workmanship is pretty standard as far as shower enclosures are concerned in my neck of the woods so nobody is crowning you.  [laughing]

 

[jtparrothead]

We all know the power of German engineering, if its good enough for the engineers at Schluter its good enough for me.  

Another thought about this aspect of the discussion, you're absolutely right that the makers of Kerdie are fine with using sheetrock, but when I first used kerdie about 8 yrs ago their instructions were to do the walls first and then the pan with a little overlap up the wall. I was surprised by this instruction because I would do the opposite, pan first then the walls which gives the proper 'shingling' to keep water headed to the drain. I don't know if they still instruct the same, if so my only guess is they do so to not encourage people to step on the pan membrane and possibly damage it and prompt a claim. A few layers of heavy cardboard takes care of that and the watershed gets done right. My point in all this is just because a manufacturer recommends something doesn't mean it's the best way.

It can be done in any order you choose.  I think the thought process behind this was do the floor last to minimize the risk of damaging it. but, I put the floor in first because I shared the same concern and I spoke with a few people from schluter and they let me know it's absolutely fine to do it this way.

 

[JoggleStick]

@jtparrothead
I'm neither wrong nor smug.... I simply call it; how it is. Clearly, you struggle with that.
Just because you don't agree does not make what I said wrong and you've added absolutely nothing to support, explain or expand on your position.
Care to make some more unsubstantiated claims or some more name calling while you're at it?
Unless you've got something constructive to say that actually relates to the thread... I'm finished with this conversation.

 

[jtparrothead]

@jtparrothead
I'm neither wrong nor smug.... I simply call it; how it is. Clearly, you struggle with that.
Just because you don't agree does not make what I said wrong and you've added absolutely nothing to support, explain or expand on your position.
Care to make some more unsubstantiated claims or some more name calling while you're at it?
Unless you've got something constructive to say that actually relates to the thread... I'm finished with this conversation.

hahaha ok, so you weren't name calling in your earlier post? yeah I thought so.  I see how you work.  You want to dish it out and and beat your own chest but when someone calls you on it you try to take some kind of b.s. high ground.  Answer a question for me please, you do in fact know what a waterproofing membrane system is and how it functions differently than a conventional mud based shower system, yes?

 

[Paul G]

We all know the power of German engineering, if its good enough for the engineers at Schluter its good enough for me.  

Another thought about this aspect of the discussion, you're absolutely right that the makers of Kerdie are fine with using sheetrock, but when I first used kerdie about 8 yrs ago their instructions were to do the walls first and then the pan with a little overlap up the wall. I was surprised by this instruction because I would do the opposite, pan first then the walls which gives the proper 'shingling' to keep water headed to the drain. I don't know if they still instruct the same, if so my only guess is they do so to not encourage people to step on the pan membrane and possibly damage it and prompt a claim. A few layers of heavy cardboard takes care of that and the watershed gets done right. My point in all this is just because a manufacturer recommends something doesn't mean it's the best way.

It can be done in any order you choose.  I think the thought process behind this was do the floor last to minimize the risk of damaging it. but, I put the floor in first because I shared the same concern and I spoke with a few people from schluter and they let me know it's absolutely fine to do it this way.

Well at least we agree theres a better way to layer the kerdie than what they instruct.

Another potential benefit of using the stronger cement board is adding wall handles in the future. I typically add about 24" of blocking in the shower wall to give a zone of solid wood I can screw into but in the event a handle is needed where there is no wood I'm much more confident in the holding strength of a molly in cement board than drywall.

 

[tjbnwi]

The key thing with Kerdi or Kerdi band is watch your corner build. Lay it up to avoid to much build. With the pre-made corners it is easy to accomplish.

Lags or toggles in drywall or cement board do not have the required pull out resistance. You have to use Moen Secure Mounts or something similar. They have the same rating with tiled over drywall or cement board.

http://www.lowes.com/pd_337714-1471-SMA1005CH_0__?productId=3309916

Tom

 

[jtparrothead]

We all know the power of German engineering, if its good enough for the engineers at Schluter its good enough for me.  

Another thought about this aspect of the discussion, you're absolutely right that the makers of Kerdie are fine with using sheetrock, but when I first used kerdie about 8 yrs ago their instructions were to do the walls first and then the pan with a little overlap up the wall. I was surprised by this instruction because I would do the opposite, pan first then the walls which gives the proper 'shingling' to keep water headed to the drain. I don't know if they still instruct the same, if so my only guess is they do so to not encourage people to step on the pan membrane and possibly damage it and prompt a claim. A few layers of heavy cardboard takes care of that and the watershed gets done right. My point in all this is just because a manufacturer recommends something doesn't mean it's the best way.

It can be done in any order you choose.  I think the thought process behind this was do the floor last to minimize the risk of damaging it. but, I put the floor in first because I shared the same concern and I spoke with a few people from schluter and they let me know it's absolutely fine to do it this way.

Well at least we agree theres a better way to layer the kerdie than what they instruct.

Another potential benefit of using the stronger cement board is adding wall handles in the future. I typically add about 24" of blocking in the shower wall to give a zone of solid wood I can screw into but in the event a handle is needed where there is no wood I'm much more confident in the holding strength of a molly in cement board than drywall.

I do the same, I don't trust any substrate other than plywood to hold something like a pull bar.  Block it up and screw right into the blocks.  make sure you seal the screw holes with some elastomeric caulking to keep mechanical failure from occurring.

 

[mopowers]

We all know the power of German engineering, if its good enough for the engineers at Schluter its good enough for me.  

Another thought about this aspect of the discussion, you're absolutely right that the makers of Kerdie are fine with using sheetrock, but when I first used kerdie about 8 yrs ago their instructions were to do the walls first and then the pan with a little overlap up the wall. I was surprised by this instruction because I would do the opposite, pan first then the walls which gives the proper 'shingling' to keep water headed to the drain. I don't know if they still instruct the same, if so my only guess is they do so to not encourage people to step on the pan membrane and possibly damage it and prompt a claim. A few layers of heavy cardboard takes care of that and the watershed gets done right. My point in all this is just because a manufacturer recommends something doesn't mean it's the best way.

It can be done in any order you choose.  I think the thought process behind this was do the floor last to minimize the risk of damaging it. but, I put the floor in first because I shared the same concern and I spoke with a few people from schluter and they let me know it's absolutely fine to do it this way.

Well at least we agree theres a better way to layer the kerdie than what they instruct.

Another potential benefit of using the stronger cement board is adding wall handles in the future. I typically add about 24" of blocking in the shower wall to give a zone of solid wood I can screw into but in the event a handle is needed where there is no wood I'm much more confident in the holding strength of a molly in cement board than drywall.

The Kerdi system does seem counter intuitive in regards to a continuous water plane. Many other building products have the same issue but still excel at their function, e.g. zip system wall sheathing. I tend to follow all manufactures instructions and recommendations to the T. for any product i use, thats just what i am comfortable with.

Someone mentioned earlier repairs over backerboard. I certainly agree, thats is one place backerboard excels. As far as mounting handles and accessories i would not be comfortable fastening to anything but solid blocking.

Paul G if you dont like the idea of sheetrock as a substrate you would really poo poo Kerdi Board. Imagine building an entire shower, benches and all out of what is essentially polyiso foam backed with Kerdi on two sides. The first time i used it i think i actually said " What the * * is this" to the distributor upon delivery. After that first use i was sold on the system. Once there is 1/2" of thinset and ceramic over the top it is extremely durable, no mater what you shower activities are.  [wink]

Regardless of your approach a improper install can still last a long time. I have torn out showers that had tile directly of MR sheetrock that had lasted 25 years. Not that it's a viable way to do it but it is (or was) a standard practice that worked for a lot of people. At least we all aim higher.

I get the feeling that each one of use do an excellent long lasting job and excel no matter what our system is.

 

[Paul G]

The key thing with Kerdi or Kerdi band is watch your corner build. Lay it up to avoid to much build. With the pre-made corners it is easy to accomplish.

Lags or toggles in drywall or cement board do not have the required pull out resistance. You have to use Moen Secure Mounts or something similar. They have the same rating with tiled over drywall or cement board.

http://www.lowes.com/pd_337714-1471-SMA1005CH_0__?productId=3309916

Tom

Thanks for the link Tom. Have you ever tried snap toggles? http://www.toggler.com/products/snaptoggle/overview.php

Totally agree about the corners with Kerdi, my first time I didn't use their corners and had to make up some difference adjusting mortar thickness. Their pre-made corners are much easier for sure.

 

[cgraham]

We have done some fairly large showers with kerdi and the advantage to doing the walls first is that we can continue to work on the walls while standing in the shower. Then when the walls are finished you can work your way out by doing the floor last? Not sure it made sense but I understood myself

 

[jtparrothead]

I'm not sure we're on the same page cgraham, I think you may be talking about the tiling itself, Paul and I are talking about the kerdi membrane.  You can install the kerdi membrane on the floor and then lay cardboard over it and start working the tile in on the wall. 

 

[Paul G]

The Kerdi system does seem counter intuitive in regards to a continuous water plane. Many other building products have the same issue but still excel at their function, e.g. zip system wall sheathing. I tend to follow all manufactures instructions and recommendations to the T. for any product i use, thats just what i am comfortable with.

Someone mentioned earlier repairs over backerboard. I certainly agree, thats is one place backerboard excels. As far as mounting handles and accessories i would not be comfortable fastening to anything but solid blocking.

Paul G if you dont like the idea of sheetrock as a substrate you would really poo poo Kerdi Board. Imagine building an entire shower, benches and all out of what is essentially polyiso foam backed with Kerdi on two sides. The first time i used it i think i actually said " What the * * is this" to the distributor upon delivery. After that first use i was sold on the system. Once there is 1/2" of thinset and ceramic over the top it is extremely durable, no mater what you shower activities are.  [wink]

Regardless of your approach a improper install can still last a long time. I have torn out showers that had tile directly of MR sheetrock that had lasted 25 years. Not that it's a viable way to do it but it is (or was) a standard practice that worked for a lot of people. At least we all aim higher.

I get the feeling that each one of use do an excellent long lasting job and excel no matter what our system is.

Yea, the kerdi foam sandwich was interesting, and you're right I just couldn't bring myself to do it lol. Same with the foam pan, I know it makes installing much easier (assuming it fits), but I wondered what the result would be if something heavy got accidentally dropped in the shower. A nicely sloped bed of deck mud topped with kerdi and I had no worries.

And I agree with your feeling that we're all doing excellent work, I find it educational to discuss and debate different approaches and materials, never know what can be learned.

 

[jtparrothead]

The Kerdi system does seem counter intuitive in regards to a continuous water plane. Many other building products have the same issue but still excel at their function, e.g. zip system wall sheathing. I tend to follow all manufactures instructions and recommendations to the T. for any product i use, thats just what i am comfortable with.

Someone mentioned earlier repairs over backerboard. I certainly agree, thats is one place backerboard excels. As far as mounting handles and accessories i would not be comfortable fastening to anything but solid blocking.

Paul G if you dont like the idea of sheetrock as a substrate you would really poo poo Kerdi Board. Imagine building an entire shower, benches and all out of what is essentially polyiso foam backed with Kerdi on two sides. The first time i used it i think i actually said " What the * * is this" to the distributor upon delivery. After that first use i was sold on the system. Once there is 1/2" of thinset and ceramic over the top it is extremely durable, no mater what you shower activities are.  [wink]

Regardless of your approach a improper install can still last a long time. I have torn out showers that had tile directly of MR sheetrock that had lasted 25 years. Not that it's a viable way to do it but it is (or was) a standard practice that worked for a lot of people. At least we all aim higher.

I get the feeling that each one of use do an excellent long lasting job and excel no matter what our system is.

Yea, the kerdi foam sandwich was interesting, and you're right I just couldn't bring myself to do it lol. Same with the foam pan, I know it makes installing much easier (assuming it fits), but I wondered what the result would be if something heavy got accidentally dropped in the shower. A nicely sloped bed of deck mud topped with kerdi and I had no worries.

And I agree with your feeling that we're all doing excellent work, I find it educational to discuss and debate different approaches and materials, never know what can be learned.

I've used the foam pan a couple of times, and while it's really easy to work with, unless you build the shower around the pan it's not going to fit properly and if that's the case you have to mix mud anyway so you can fill in the cracks.  the one advantage it does have is when backfilling the open ends with mud the slope is already determined so you just pack the mud in and use a float to screed any excess and you're ready to go.