Rotax 125, I give up, Now for sale

Its obvious  to me i am just a numpty compared all you intelligent critics. I must be to stupid to own a festool sander
and to be honest this forum is not for me, no genuine people left any more. Just clever dicks
 
I just posted a follow up in the "Tool Problems" thread I started awhile back regarding my RO125.  I have struggled both with the quality of the finish the sander creates and the challenges in controlling it.  I have tried different pads, dust collection suction levels, including none at all, hand positions, etc and cannot get this sander to perform well or comfortably. It is a tasmanian devil that just wants to run away from you and that is before you put it in aggressive mode.  I've also had mine long enough for this mythical break-in period to take place and nothing has changed.  So I am with you...very, very hard to control and not a pleasant experience. 
 
[size=18pt]
Well, that went well!  [eek]
[size=12pt]
I am not surprised by the outcome, because although it ended up (possibly) being the type of abrasive, Raptorseviltwin appeared to be resistant to a number of excellent suggestions offered, including that of Phil at Festool UK to look at and investigate the problem in person.

 
Untidy shop, why don't you read the post before commenting as i had already sold the sander before the offer. Prey tell What ex. suggestions
 
Can I just say that I'm not 100% certain it is just the abrasive.

On reflection I should have tried some of the mesh abrasive after the Rubin2 and seen if the wild behaviour actually returned. I do have an extra piece of wood cut as a contingency (my efforts on that little table stalled for a while as I made a mess of one bit and had to wait until I had another planed and sized to continue, so lesson learned) which it appears now I won't need, so I will try the mesh vs Rubin2 vs cheaper aftermarket (festool holed) variant tomorrow and see if we can work out once and for all what the problem is/was and if it has gone, or merely hibernating for the winter?
 
Raptorseviltwin said:
Untidy shop, why don't you read the post before commenting as i had already sold the sander before the offer. Prey tell What ex. suggestions

Having Again  [eek] re read this thread, I agree that Phil's offer was made after the tool was sold. However I stand by the rest of my comment.

Raptorseviltwin, I agree the Metabo sanders are very good. I got excellent results from my 150 up until I replaced it with a ROTEX. But the Metabo too could shudder/skip occasionally until I learn't to guide rather than grab it.

Ed. Yes please do follow up with more regarding your experiences.
 
IF I have been out of line I certainly owe apologies.  Ed, I'm happy that things are working for you, the Rotex appears to have done a beautiful job on that table.
 
Hi
  I have had contact with the Raptorseviltwin on some other machines and arranged a visit from our local guy for the area. Raptorseviltwin sent some images of his work to me after the visit and what he produces is fantastic, also from purely local timbers to his area so he does know the 'trade' and how to design. For a craftsman to have problems with his/her hands is frustrating so when something else causes a challenge such as a machine or process not working out it just adds to the frustration.
  Some come across on forums very well and with others it can take some time but all are here to learn and share a common passion.
Phil
 
Woodn't It Be Neat said:
IF I have been out of line I certainly owe apologies.  Ed, I'm happy that things are working for you, the Rotex appears to have done a beautiful job on that table.

The table was finished before I got the Rotex. It was just lightly hand sanded.

 
That was an interesting read and had some quite explosive content by FOG standards! I feel a little bit sorry for some of the posters being "attacked" by some of the Festool diehards. I own a 150 and it is without a doubt a beast sometimes, it is nothing to do with me being incapable, it's just inherent in a machine of that nature. It's not reasonable to expect something that can go from replacing a belt sander to polishing glass to perform in every possible permutation without being a bit flighty from time to time. I completely reject the argument that it was the wrong paper. I have had Festool paper not work for a given task, material, speed setting, level of suction etc. and resolved the problem by changing to Abranet.

I also have had a conversation in the past with one of the most respected UK dealers on this site and he confirmed that he gets more complaints about control issues with the RO125 than any other Rotex. I won't mention any names as it was verbal and if he chooses to contribute to this thread then that is his choice.

It does appear that someone was trying to use the Rotex one handed and I would say that I can't ever see them being intended for one handed use. They are difficult to control at times and there is a learning curve with them. There will always be setups where they are had to control regardless of paper, settings and the material being worked. A change of paper, mode, suction often does the trick.

Would I ever get rid of my RO150? Never! Do I feel like thrashing it with a branch some days? (remember Basil Fawlty and his Austin 1300) Absolutely yes!

Like I said early on in the thread, they are thoroughbreds.



For those that watched the video and don't yet own a Rotex, that is how they can be somedays!
 
I am sure many of us can sympathise with Basil...

The one lesson that any new FOGger should take away from this is that, despite the way it may come across, everyone here does their best to help others and especially when it comes to the new guys. Some of us may have strong (ish) views but often that is based on years of debate here on the FOG. When someone expresses such a view the new arrival should never assume that the position taken is directed against him or her (I say her because, apparently, our new arrival on this thread is female). Similarly the established members, especially me, should understand how difficult it might be for some new arrivals who come here with a genuine problem in their early days.

Now that remark in brackets is a leg pull and not intended to hurt.

Also, despite most of us having thick skin, we prefer to keep things civil and not get into the personal stuff.

The Forum Moderators do an excellent job at policing the FOG but don't let's make their job any more difficult than it need be.

Peter
 
Sometimes you guys force me to make a comment.  I just don't understand why.

that vid about Basil beating his car brought back memories of my first 4x4 pickup truck.  It was a 55 or 56 Jeep.  i believe it was still called a Willies Jeep.  The old square nosed pickup that still looked like a military Jeep.  I think it was possibly th very best truck in deep snow i ever had.  Of course there was a learning curve to that as the very first job I did with the brand shiny new truck was to go to my friends farm and pick up a load of cow manure to bring home and spread over my mom's garden.  i was always muddy in the spring and i had been forced to put down planks and push wheelbarrow loads out into the plot.  This time, I would no longer need to use the wheelbarrow.  Weelll, not necessarily so.  As i got to the edge of the plot, the frost broke under the weight and i sunk into the mud tip the entire underside of the frame was 3 or 4 inches into the mud.  Being quite resourceful and full of pee and vinegar in those days, i brought beams and jacks to the problem and after three or four hours, the truck was extracted but still smelling of s...

But that is not the story i set out to tell because you guys forced me into it.

That jeep's electrical system was 6 volt instead of the 12 V system of most new vehicles today.  That Jeep turned out to be quite difficult starting when the temp dropped below 20ºF.  Once started, it would go anywhere I asked (Except into a bottomless pit of mud  [eek]).  One morning I was running a little late for work.  We had concrete coming and all hands were needed as there would be a lot of wheelbarrow "driving" involved.  I have never been too fond of concrete accepting it as the necessary evil to the masonry trade.  i always pitched in to do my share of the work.  Sometimes even more than my share.  i just wanted to get the concrete work out of the way so i could get on to putting my hands onto the brick and stone.  Those were my forte.

this particular morning, my truck turned over and over.  The battery getting lower and lower in charge.  as the truck ground on and was getting quieter and quieter, this young man was getting louder and louder.  I was also thinking of beating that SOAB truck.  I finally got out and tried to raise the ood so i could bring my mom's battery out of her car and use that to jump start.  We has had a bit of an ice storm the nite before and the clips on the side of the hood (bonnet to you guys on the other side of the pond) were covered with ice. 

It was getting later by the .  i was not known in those days as having been blessed with a great deal of patience.  I basically blew up.  i went to the back of the truck and grabbed my 16 pound sledgehammer nd started beating on the tires and "very patiently"  ::) started Discussing the problem using every cuss word i could think of, including those i had learned while spending time in the orient.  About that time, my dear mom came out from the far backside of the house to tell me i really did not have to get so violent and i certainly had no need to be using such language.  "Oh yeah!" I shouted. "Well, just watch this!"

With that. I put the hammer back into the back of the truck, got into the cab and turned the key.  "wrrrooooommm"  It started instantly.  And what is important, i never had any more problems starting that truck in cold weather.  Sometimes, one just has to get a little excited.
::)
Tinker
 
First off, this is an apology for a long post. I hope you will persevere with it, hopefully it will make sense.  [scared]

Well, I have spent another good few hours today using the RO125 and I have come to some conclusions. Now these conclusions have come about through my own trials, use and what suits me and may well not work for someone else or with a different machine even of the same type.

I split the spare slat I had made into 2 halves using painter's tape and proceeded to sand one end with the Festool Rubin2 discs and finishing with a Brilliant2 disc, the Rubin2's were 60g, 100g, 180g  and the Brilliant2 was 320g. I went through all grits from low to high and with rotary and then orbital modes for each before progressing to a finer grit size. The board looks and feels great. But, I did have some moments when the sander seemed to go wild and I also had a lot of squiggly lines from the orbital sanding to contend with (more of that later).

I sanded the other end of the slat using the aftermarket 'Festool holed' discs and one of each of the remaining mesh discs, these were Starcke 40g & 80g and the mesh used were 120g, 180g, 240g and 400g. I followed the same regime as above with first rotary and then orbital sanding with each grade before moving onto the next finer disc. The finish from these was similar to that of the Festool discs used and you would be hard pushed to tell the difference between them without a microscope. Again, I had a couple of wild moments and again I had little squiggly lines after each orbital sanding bout.

I would confidently say that there was very little in the difference in use of the 2 sets of discs. If I was pressed on the matter I might have to say that the aftermarket disks took a little more pressure to keep them in check, but there wasn’t really very much in it.

I also did some sanding on a larger board to try to get a feel for the machine over a wider space.
So, what did I discover? A few things actually, I will document them all, as they may (or may not) help others who have had issues with their Rotex Sanders, but if nothing else it may give them a place to start to sort out any issues they themselves may have.

Firstly, in Rotary mode it is a good idea to use both hands to hold and guide the machine. Whilst there are occasions when you could possibly sand in the rotary position using only one hand it would be much more likely to have a ‘wild spell’ the moment it came across something it didnt like.

Secondly, the amount and duration of ‘wild spells’ seemed to be consistent and proportional with how poorly the board was clamped down. This was more apparent in the slat as whilst it was held firmly in the middle in the clamps of one of my Keter Workbenches, being just shy of 5ft long meant that there was probably a good 15-18” of overhang and as the sander moved along these areas it was much more difficult to control and was quite likely to bounce. This was not the case in the middle of the slat where it was safely secured. This was also worse with the larger grit sizes.

Thirdly, if the sander was proceeding along a board and there was a severe change in grain direction or a heartwood to sapwood area again it became more difficult to control, this was not as bad as the situation with the not so well secured board but something to be aware of.

The fourth thing I discovered was that in the Rotary mode (using any grit or type of disc) it was much easier to control if the sander was flat on the surface when moving the sander from side to side (left to right or right to left) than it was moving it forward to back or vice versa or even diagonally. I do not understand why this should be so, but I tried it many times and each time gave similar results.

For large amounts of material removal in rotary mode, it seemed best to move the Rotex forward across the area you want to take down whilst slightly increasing the pressure at the front of the Rotex either by pressing harder with the hand directly over the sanding head or by lifting slightly the handle with your other hand. This causes the sanding disc to be slightly tilted and increases the amount of material removed at any one time at the front of the sanding disk. Whilst carrying out this trial I did not have any ‘wild moments’ at all.

I then played around with the sander in Orbital mode to try to find a way to remove the squiggly lines left by the use of this mode. Eventually, I worked it out. I was getting the squiggly line in the orbital mode as I was also moving the sander across the wood in an orbital type motion, sort of like you would do if you were French polishing (lots of little circles). Whether this is commonly known or not, as soon as I started with the sander in the orbital sanding mode and only moved across the board or slat in straight lines (typically I went right to left, don’t know why, just seemed to be the way I did it most often) either from side to side or up or down, there were no squiggly lines left behind. Magic! The best results were obtained when actually sanding with or even against the grain as opposed to going across the grain.

I did have the odd ‘wild moment’ in Orbital mode, but these again were usually where there was a change in the wood within the board and only when using it with a single hand so not having full control, not really the machines fault.

Of the discs I tried today, I had no real issues with any of them. The two packs of Starcke (German with Festool hole pattern) discs seem very good and were about 60% of the price of Rubin2s and I have since found another supplier who also sells sanding discs with a Festool hole pattern, and have ordered a couple of boxes of them to try out (these are only about 30% of the cost of the Rubin2s) I will do a like for like test of them all once I receive them.

My conclusions (for me and this Rotex) are that whilst the media used might have a slight bearing on any issues, it is more probable that it is how the operator interacts with the machine that can make the biggest difference to it in use. My trials over the last couple of days have given me a great starting point with this particular Rotex as they have forced me to spend some quality time with this machine and try to get to know its strengths and weaknesses, and hopefully may also help others with issues they might have with their own machines, and, as I said earlier if not, possibly give them a starting point for their own trials.

Just one other thing, can anybody suggest the best way of cleaning a Rotex? Mine now looks like its 3 years old already.  [eek]
 
Ed, that is a great review.
Perhaps you might make a copy and post it in the Tool Review section/or the tool problems section.
I have not had a problem with my RO 150, but there is sufficient evidence that othes have had some problems.  This has been a review that is sure to help many who have had such problems as have been discussed during this thread.

i have mentioned in other threads elsewhere that I had gotten lots of practice running a concrete trowel machine (several different sizes of those requiring one operator and light enough to be placed on the floor (concrete surface) by one man or two men.  Concrete grinders (terrazzo machines) operated the same way.  the direction of movement was controlled by very subtle up or down pressure on the operating handles.  Too much lift, and the machine dove to the left.  too much down pressure on the handle and the machine dove to the right.  on an even surface, one could almost control the machine by just thinking about where to go.  I have found the RO is controlled pretty much the same way.  You have taken the study a few steps further with much better explanation.

Tinker
 
Thanks Tinker, appreciate the sentiments.

I have no problem with it being posted in either of those other forums.
 
[size=14pt]Excellent report of your experiences Ed.  [smile]

I assume you have one hand at front and the other back near the plug it when sanding.

Regarding cleaning. Remove pad and vacuum tool.  Use a small plastic bristle brush to lossen any resistant build up under pad area.

Then wipe down tool with Microfibre cleaning cloth. Down here I purchase both disposable and reusable cloth from supermarkets, rather than use the Festool Cloth.

I also use these instead of the Festool Cloth to wipe down work between sanding grit changes.

Thank you again for your follow up report.

 
Untidy Shop said:
[size=14pt]Excellent report of your experiences Ed.  [smile]

Thank you, appreciate it.

I assume you have one hand at front and the other back near the plug it when sanding.

Yes, left hand on the head, right hand on grip with index finger forward like you would on a saw (just seems comfortable that way).

Regarding cleaning. Remove pad and vacuum tool.  Use a small plastic bristle brush to lossen any resistant build up under pad area.

Then wipe down tool with Microfibre cleaning cloth. Down here I purchase both disposable and reusable cloth from supermarkets, rather than use the Festool Cloth.

I also use these instead of the Festool Cloth to wipe down work between sanding grit changes.

Thank you, I have a lot of microfibre cloths for my photography.

Thank you again for your follow up report.

[embarassed]
 
Ed Bray said:
My conclusions (for me and this Rotex) are that whilst the media used might have a slight bearing on any issues, it is more probable that it is how the operator interacts with the machine that can make the biggest difference to it in use. My trials over the last couple of days have given me a great starting point with this particular Rotex as they have forced me to spend some quality time with this machine and try to get to know its strengths and weaknesses, and hopefully may also help others with issues they might have with their own machines, and, as I said earlier if not, possibly give them a starting point for their own trials.

After using this Rotex 125, would you conclude there's anything wrong with the machine itself?

Ed Bray said:
Just one other thing, can anybody suggest the best way of cleaning a Rotex? Mine now looks like its 3 years old already. 

Paint thinner works wonderfully for cleaning the black plastic of Festool tools. Vacs excepted. 
 
Alex said:
Ed Bray said:
My conclusions (for me and this Rotex) are that whilst the media used might have a slight bearing on any issues, it is more probable that it is how the operator interacts with the machine that can make the biggest difference to it in use. My trials over the last couple of days have given me a great starting point with this particular Rotex as they have forced me to spend some quality time with this machine and try to get to know its strengths and weaknesses, and hopefully may also help others with issues they might have with their own machines, and, as I said earlier if not, possibly give them a starting point for their own trials.

After using this Rotex 125, would you conclude there's anything wrong with the machine itself?

Ed Bray said:
Just one other thing, can anybody suggest the best way of cleaning a Rotex? Mine now looks like its 3 years old already. 

Paint thinner works wonderfully for cleaning the black plastic of Festool tools. Vacs excepted.

It seems okay to me, I am not an authority though, I just used it until I got comfortable with it, where I found issues I made an effort to work out how to either subdue them or rectify them. I now think it can do what I want it to do, for me. It may not be perfect, I don't know what perfect is supposed to work like. It may throw the odd wobbly in the future but I will then work out how to either live with it or work out how to work around it.

Thanks for the cleaning tip.
 
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