Safety Topic

[Bob D.]

"His explanation was that the blade guard was inconvenient."

If only he could experience a week of 9-1/2 fingers then he might get a taste of what inconvenience is.

I have three 9 fingered friends who would like to tell him to use that guard.

As far as taking pride in being covered in dust at the end of the day. I never looked at it like that but I did have a job where I was covered in dust. It was more of a nuisance than a badge of honor. I was working on construction of a nuclear power plant as a pipefitter. Spent many a 10 hour day crawling around inside the reactor building running pipe, grinding J bevels for welds, installing pipe supports, etc. Looking back the place was filthy, even though they had people cleaning constantly. I would get two 4" air grinders and a stack of 12 or more grinding wheels at the beginning of the shift and most days they would all be gone by the end of the shift. You don't think that makes a mess try wearing out even one wheel and see what it's like. Now put over 100 people inside the same closed space with minimal ventilation and see how much swarf you take home with you. My clothes were covered with the grit and swarf from the steel plus the dust and debris from crawling around in the workspace. Towards the end of the job when the majority of the pipe and conduit and everything else was installed there were very few places where you could even stand up, that's how crammed it is inside there. My ears and nose would be filled with black grit and no doubt some of the bits of carbon or stainless steel I had been grinding on that day. In the 70s and 80s no one was handing out disposable ear plugs or dust masks to the thousands doing this type of work. On this one project alone we had over 1000 pipefitters welding and grinding. Add to that all the other trades and you can begin to envision the mess we worked in every day. When you blow your nose and nothing but black gunk comes out you have to think this can't be good.

 

[GoingMyWay]

Adam Savage of MythBusters fame recently had an accident in the shop with his lathe:

 

[DeformedTree]

I think Adam needs to have a talk about fire safety/fire hazard.  A fire gets started in there, it's going up fast and will he be able to get out in time, or anyone find him. 

A workshop full of stuff, and stuff hanging on the ceiling/walls/etc looks fun, but it's not safe.  Definitely not a space you want to be running machines and such in.

 

[GoingMyWay]

That's a good point about fire safety.  His previous video gave a bit of a tour of his "cave" and some of its contents:=164.  Starts at the 2:44 mark.

 

[ChuckM]

The video reminds me of the owner of woodgears.ca who had a table saw finger accident. Before that, he did not put enough emphasis on safety precaution in his videos. But the irony is with another video content producer who encountered a finger injury on his tablesaw shortly before his SawStop arrived. However, kudos to these people who did not try to cover their injuries, but shared them with their audience regardless of how they felt about safety in the past before the accidents hit.

All the local high school shops I've visited are equipped with the SawStop...no exceptions. Of course, all other machines they have, the mitre saws, the jointers, the band saws, etc. are equally dangerous tools for those teen students. I have great respects for the teachers since every day, they have a job to ensure the safety of their kids in a challenging environment: It's no easy task to manage teens in a classroom, let alone in a shop that is full of equipment that could seriously maim. 

 

[GoingMyWay]

Matthias Wandel covered some "beginner" table saw mistakes that more experienced users might not even think about:

He also put up an article about it on his website:https://woodgears.ca/table_saw/mistakes.html.

 

[ChuckM]

I never use push sticks on my table saw. They don't give the kind of control a push block or push shoe does. Push shoes can be easily shop made (examples can be seen in the school shop image) or bought:
https://www.leevalley.com/en-ca/sho...sticks-and-blocks/30067-dual-tread-push-stick

I have several fixed and adjustable push shoes made to cater for different ripping widths. Total control every time.

 

[DeformedTree]

I never use push sticks on my table saw. They don't give the kind of control a push block or push shoe does. Push shoes can be easily shop made (examples can be seen in the school shop image) or bought:

define what the difference between push stick and push shoe is?  I think people use them interchangeably?

Push Stick-Push Shoe

As it says, push stick is a general term for all of these.

 

[AlexThePalex]

I think most people who got an accident knew perfectly well what they were doing and should have done to keep it safe. It's not rocket science.

 

[DeformedTree]

I think most people who got an accident knew perfectly well what they were doing and should have done to keep it safe. It's not rocket science.

I would assume people in your part of the world act the same way.  When they mess up/do something stupid, it's alway someone else's fault, or a bad product, not them.  Time to go get a lawyer.

 

[ChuckM]

Snip.

define what the difference between push stick and push shoe is?  I think people use them interchangeably?

Push Stick-Push Shoe

As it says, push stick is a general term for all of these.

Image from left to right:

Push stick (for use with the band saw, not the table saw), fixed push shoe, adjustable push shoe, and push block.

 

[GoingMyWay]

I think most people who got an accident knew perfectly well what they were doing and should have done to keep it safe. It's not rocket science.

It may just be my inexperience, but not everything is that intuitive or obvious to me.

For example, using 1 clamp to hold down the workpiece on a miter saw is a good idea.  Therefore, I'd think think using a clamp on both sides would be "twice as good" but that's obviously not that case and should not be done.

Same for the rule of not using a fence in conjunction with a miter gauge.    I never would have thought on the surface that it would be dangerous if I hadn't heard it and had it explained by others.

As they say, you don't know what you don't know.  So I always appreciate safety reminders and explanations.

 

[ChuckM]

Snip.

As they say, you don't know what you don't know.

Indeed.

In post #18, Birdhunter related to his SawStop blade guard incident. It has never happened to me as a SawStop user since 2007 or so. Knowing about that incident, I will now be more careful when I do bevel cuts and make sure the fins won't be pushed into the blade. Shop safety is a very complex subject, and awareness of its importance (and our own blind spot) is the first step towards safe woodworking. 

 

[DeformedTree]

I think most people who got an accident knew perfectly well what they were doing and should have done to keep it safe. It's not rocket science.

It may just be my inexperience, but not everything is that intuitive or obvious to me.

For example, using 1 clamp to hold down the workpiece on a miter saw is a good idea.  Therefore, I'd think think using a clamp on both sides would be "twice as good" but that's obviously not that case and should not be done.

Same for the rule of not using a fence in conjunction with a miter gauge.    I never would have thought on the surface that it would be dangerous if I hadn't heard it and had it explained by others.

As they say, you don't know what you don't know.  So I always appreciate safety reminders and explanations.

This is a good example, and it shows a short coming with tools.  Often they do little to explain the safety devices, other than point to them in a diagram. They might show how to use the safety device(s) on the tool.  What is almost never done is explaining the theory behind it, they whys.  You example is perfect here, "use the hold down clamp",  great, so as you say someone things then more clamps better, nothing is there to explain binding and such. When people get informed of what is going on with it, with a bit further information than just "this is the anti kickback device", or "this prevents the material from kicking back", but explains how such an event happens and why the setup is the is they way it is, people get smarter.

 

[AlexThePalex]

I think most people who got an accident knew perfectly well what they were doing and should have done to keep it safe. It's not rocket science.

I would assume people in your part of the world act the same way.  When they mess up/do something stupid, it's alway someone else's fault, or a bad product, not them.  Time to go get a lawyer.

Dunno. I only know that the kind of litigation Americans are used to is simply not possible here. Most of the cases that are admissable in the US wouldn't even get to court here, and for the few that do there has to be a strong indication the manufacturer is at fault. And then the money awarded is only for proveable costs and/or losses, and mostly measured in thousands and not in the millions.

But besides that, my remark was only meant to indicate most people know what they should do to keep it safe, but just disregard those rules, for various reasons. It has absolutely nothing to do with who is eventually to blame. Which, most of the time, is the person himself.

 

[Jiggy Joiner]

I think most people who got an accident knew perfectly well what they were doing and should have done to keep it safe. It's not rocket science.

It may just be my inexperience, but not everything is that intuitive or obvious to me.

For example, using 1 clamp to hold down the workpiece on a miter saw is a good idea.  Therefore, I'd think think using a clamp on both sides would be "twice as good" but that's obviously not that case and should not be done.

Same for the rule of not using a fence in conjunction with a miter gauge.    I never would have thought on the surface that it would be dangerous if I hadn't heard it and had it explained by others.

As they say, you don't know what you don't know.  So I always appreciate safety reminders and explanations.

Got talking to a colleague yesterday about using two clamps simultaneously. He then reminded me that one of the timber mills we use, has a monster of a radial arm just near the entrance to one of the stock sheds.
This thing has three hydraulic hold down clamps each side of the cutter head, and more often than not, whoever operates it, uses all six clamps to hold the big pieces of rough sawn stock, whilst cutting.
They don’t seem to suffer kickback, well at least we’ve not witnessed it. I know this is cutting stock of a much larger size but, the principal must be the same or somewhere near?
Bearing in mind the majority of their sawn timber is not flat or straight.

 

[FestitaMakool]

[member=69479]Jiggy Joiner[/member]
I follow your thoughts.. Since I got the KS120 I have on occasions used both clamps.
There’s many aspects and variables that comes into play here.
- Is the piece flat?
- Is it well supported, in all its length and width?
- Speed of movement of the head as the operator moves it?
- Are all levers securely locked, bevel/angle locks?

The security of using two or more clamps, and keeping the free hand well away from any danger zones is something I would prefer. Damage to the saw, well it’s replaceable.
If the above criteria’s are met, I think the risks are low (others; chime in if you disagree or want to add)

One factor I’ve learned, in practice and from seasoned carpenters:
Let The Tool (Saw) Do The Job!

With miter saws I see too often that the operator almost hits the piece way too fast. You wouldn’t do that on a table saw?
In fear of warped timber or timber with tension, go slow on both rpm’s and lower the head slowly. This way if there’s movement (tension/warped) the sawblade has time to “correct” it’s cutting path.

 

[Bob D.]

As much as I like Matthias and all the great projects and videos he has put out for everyone to enjoy I do not hold him up as a example of how to work safely.

In many instances he does not use guards when it is easy to do so, he exposes more blade on the TS than needed, and will often poo-poo those who take exception with his what appears to be carelessness on camera for all to see and copy. He will justify it as he knows what he's doing. Just as lame as the 'guard has been removed for photographic clarity" BS that the DIY and WWing shows flash on the screen. Once you've seen a spinning blade move through a piece of wood how many more times do you need to see it.

Matthias is not the only guilty party and I am probably only slightly better with my personal safety habits but I'm not the one with a couple hundred thousand followers on YT.

All the DIY shows such as TOH and all the rest are just as bad if not worse.

 

[ChuckM]

The use of two clamps on each side of a typical mitre saw blade at the same time may or may not result in binding and/or kickback depending on so many factors such as the condition and type of the lumber, its size, vibration, etc. No one can be sure if or when the binding could happen if both clamps are used together at once. It hasn't happened does not mean it doesn't happen.

On the other hand, one thing that is 100% sure is that using just one clamp with the off-cut freely to go will cause zero binding. The question is why take the risk? Safety often is about risk management, and in my shop I use just one clamp, and if the other end needs to be supported, I get it supported.

 

[DeformedTree]

The use of two clamps on each side of a typical mitre saw blade at the same time may or may not result in binding and/or kickback depending on so many factors such as the condition and type of the lumber, its size, vibration, etc. No one can be sure if or when the binding could happen if both clamps are used together at once. It hasn't happened does not mean it doesn't happen.

On the other hand, one thing that is 100% sure is that using just one clamp with the off-cut freely to go will cause zero binding. The question is why take the risk? Safety often is about risk management, and in my shop I use just one clamp, and if the other end needs to be supported, I get it supported.

Yeah, a saw mill and miter saw not the same thing. A big factor is saw mills have basically endless power.  It's hard to compare different tools/setups as you don't know what the manufacture has based their design on, tested, experienced over time.

All the talk on miter saws is surprising to me. I haven't considered them very un-safe. And I don't clamp stuff unless I have some very special setup going on.  The few times things have got eventful I knew in advance it would happen and planned for it to happen (small end cut, weird angle, you know something is probably going to fly, so take precautions for that).  Miter saws not high on my fear factor list.

Tools like jointers and routers, now those are ones that make me nervous.  High Speed or Large cutting that you don't see when using, and keeps running for a while after you stop, and with routers if not in a plunge base, you might set the thing down and it's still spinning or grab the bottom of the tool. Tools where you see the blade and it's rather stationary or on a guide worry me far less.