Safety Topic

[ChuckM]

A former co-worker, in his 70s, cut his fingers on the table saw as he tried to remove an off-cut BEFORE the blade came to a stop. His first major table saw injury after over 40 years of hobby woodworking. Several months later, he said the pain was still not completely gone. Not sure if it was a psychological thing or the nerve pain never went away. His wife insisted that he get either a Festool track saw or a SawStop if he wanted to continue his hobby. He picked the former because in his words "I don't do a lot these days," and the SawStop was a lot pricier.

People can explain to themselves why they don't need or want the blade guard or riving knife installed when it does not obstruct the cuts. I wish them good luck and hope they will never find themselves hurt when using machines.

But these 604 pages of table saw incidents are a stark reminder that we should try as best as we can to use blade guards and riving knives whenever possible:
https://www.osha.gov/pls/imis/Accid...description=&acc_Abstract=&acc_keyword="table+saw%22&sic=&naics=&Office=All&officetype=All&endmonth=04&endday=07&endyear=2002&startmonth=04&startday=07&startyear=2021&InspNr=

Click on the summary to see more details.

Remember countless table saw injuries are not reported or included in those pages.

 

[FestitaMakool]

As much as I like Matthias and all the great projects and videos he has put out for everyone to enjoy I do not hold him up as a example of how to work safely.

In many instances he does not use guards when it is easy to do so, he exposes more blade on the TS than needed, and will often poo-poo those who take exception with his what appears to be carelessness on camera for all to see and copy. He will justify it as he knows what he's doing. Just as lame as the 'guard has been removed for photographic clarity" BS that the DIY and WWing shows flash on the screen. Once you've seen a spinning blade move through a piece of wood how many more times do you need to see it.

Matthias is not the only guilty party and I am probably only slightly better with my personal safety habits but I'm not the one with a couple hundred thousand followers on YT.

All the DIY shows such as TOH and all the rest are just as bad if not worse.

After seeing the video, I agree with you, no blade guard where there could easily have been one. I didn’t notice if he had the riving knife in place though. Nothing much to learn, safety wise.

 

[FestitaMakool]

How would you think of securing those times you use a end stop on the miter saw?
Many, including me are using some sort of end stop for repetitive cuts. This way one of the pieces are constricted to move after the cut is made.

 

[ChuckM]

Snip.
All the talk on miter saws is surprising to me. I haven't considered them very un-safe.

Here're a couple examples of mitre saw injuries:
https://www.osha.gov/pls/imis/accidentsearch.accident_detail?id=202527867https://www.osha.gov/pls/imis/accidentsearch.accident_detail?id=202468286

 

[ChuckM]

How would you think of securing those times you use a end stop on the miter saw?
Many, including me are using some sort of end stop for repetitive cuts. This way one of the pieces are constricted to move after the cut is made.

Use a spring-loaded stop block as featured in the Tricks of the Trade in Popular Woodworking Magazine October 2010 #185:

&fit=bounds

It can also be used on the table saw cross-cut sled.

 

[DeformedTree]

Snip.
All the talk on miter saws is surprising to me. I haven't considered them very un-safe.

Here're a couple of examples of mitre saw injuries:
https://www.osha.gov/pls/imis/accidentsearch.accident_detail?id=202527867https://www.osha.gov/pls/imis/accidentsearch.accident_detail?id=202468286

Don't get me wrong, I wasn't implying I don't think people can injury themselves with a miter saw.  Just that it's not the tool that would jump to the top of my dangerous tool list. It would be one of the lower ones on the powertool list.  This is why I was surprised to see people talking about miter saws.

A lot of the really dangerous ones are small tools.  Like dremel/cut off tools.  Oscillating tools.  Basically tools that are a blade just hanging out there looking for something.

 

[ChuckM]

https://www.wwgoa.com/article/shop-accident-statistics-woodworking-safety/#

I can't verify the above statistics or estimates.

 

[martin felder]

This is not a miter saw I currently own.  Assuming one is not using very wide boards and the miter saw is not setup for portability, this saw pictures would seem like a great option.  I posted this picture on another thread but this seems to be where this topic is being discussed.  I do not use clamps much on my current miter saw (the Kapex), but I do not use it for wide cuts (Table saw for that) or compound miters (for a woodshop not a job site for crown). I find the hand-manual clamps not so practical, but I am starting to re-think my priorities.  However, if I had that saw with pneumatic clamps, I would probably use the clamps with every cut, which is what I do with my slider table saw that has pneumatic clamps.  As for the binding issue, I am not sure if it would be a problem or not using both horizontal and/or vertical at the same time.

[attachimg=1]

 

[ChuckM]

The pneumatic clamps are really nice, especially for repetitive work. If the feet can be swapped to wider ones, they can even handle small pieces.

I don't quite understand why you say the Kapex hold-down clamp is not practical. I use it 95% or more of the time when I use the Kapex. It is quick release, unlike the screw-type that we find of all other mitre saws. The screw-type is so impractical that I know of no one single mitre saw user who uses it (at all or on a regular basis). 

 

[ChuckM]

Snip.

After seeing the video, I agree with you, no blade guard where there could easily have been one. I didn’t notice if he had the riving knife in place though. Nothing much to learn, safety wise.

If he had used the blade guard regularly, he would not have cut his fingers in the first place, and produced the video that explained why his fingers were cut.  But as we all know, many prolific YouTube content producers use their table saws without any guard and/or riving knife at all. Ironically, they are the ones (given the higher level of distraction) who could get added protection from using the safety gear.

 

[Jiggy Joiner]

This is not a miter saw I currently own.  Assuming one is not using very wide boards and the miter saw is not setup for portability, this saw pictures would seem like a great option.  I posted this picture on another thread but this seems to be where this topic is being discussed.  I do not use clamps much on my current miter saw (the Kapex), but I do not use it for wide cuts (Table saw for that) or compound miters (for a woodshop not a job site for crown). I find the hand-manual clamps not so practical, but I am starting to re-think my priorities.  However, if I had that saw with pneumatic clamps, I would probably use the clamps with every cut, which is what I do with my slider table saw that has pneumatic clamps.  As for the binding issue, I am not sure if it would be a problem or not using both horizontal and/or vertical at the same time.

[attachimg=1]

I posted earlier mentioning a large industrial saw at a timber mill we use, has three hydraulic clamps each side of the cutting head. Nearly every time an operator uses it, they lock down all six clamps.
They’re cutting all kinds including rough sawn, non flat timber in large dimensions, without seemingly suffering any binding or kick back.

 

[Jiggy Joiner]

[member=71478]FestitaMakool[/member] Thanks, I think we share the same or similar thoughts, whatever happens, I value my limbs more than any tool or machine.  [thumbs up]

 

[AlexThePalex]

A lot of the really dangerous ones are small tools.  Like dremel/cut off tools.  Oscillating tools.  Basically tools that are a blade just hanging out there looking for something.

Kidding, right?

Nobody accidentally cut of 3 fingers with a Dremel. Only injury you'll get from an oscillating multitool is burning your fingers when you try to change the blade right after you've made a cut.

Of the most used powertools the most dangerous ones are the table saw, circular saw and chain saw, as the slightest mistake can lead to missing body parts or an arterial bleeding.

 

[ChuckM]

Circular saws! [scared] They may look innocent, but they can amputate or kill:
https://www.osha.gov/pls/imis/AccidentSearch.search?acc_keyword="Circular Saw"&keyword_list=on

 

[FestitaMakool]

[member=71478]FestitaMakool[/member] Thanks, I think we share the same or similar thoughts, whatever happens, I value my limbs more than any tool or machine.  [thumbs up]

Thanks the same!  [smile]
I’ve used a miter saw for a whole lot over at least 20 years. Over that period I’ve had a few scary throwout and kickbacks. Crown mouldings without support and clamping is one, short pieces another, not well supported pieces yet another one. Wet heavy treated timber too.
So, now also knowing two close friends with sewn on thumbs.. my lefty are not on the saws table anymore. A rule I had till now is holding the piece with my hand placed outside of the table’s end. The end of the table is blocking my hand from moving to the right. Short pieces have been held in place with long scrap pieces of wood - goggles on and stand back!

 

[FestitaMakool]

A lot of the really dangerous ones are small tools.  Like dremel/cut off tools.  Oscillating tools.  Basically tools that are a blade just hanging out there looking for something.

Kidding, right?

Nobody accidentally cut of 3 fingers with a Dremel. Only injury you'll get from an oscillating multitool is burning your fingers when you try to change the blade right after you've made a cut.

Of the most used powertools the most dangerous ones are the table saw, circular saw and chain saw, as the slightest mistake can lead to missing body parts or an arterial bleeding.

- They’re eating eyes.. Dremel and their counterparts are extremely dangerous to your eyesight.
But if you cut yourself they usually make clean cuts. Surgeons are not fan of toothed saw blade cuts - they make a terrible mess.. Freely spoken from a surgeon.

 

[DeformedTree]

A lot of the really dangerous ones are small tools.  Like dremel/cut off tools.  Oscillating tools.  Basically tools that are a blade just hanging out there looking for something.

Kidding, right?

Nobody accidentally cut of 3 fingers with a Dremel. Only injury you'll get from an oscillating multitool is burning your fingers when you try to change the blade right after you've made a cut.

Of the most used powertools the most dangerous ones are the table saw, circular saw and chain saw, as the slightest mistake can lead to missing body parts or an arterial bleeding.

No, not kidding.  You have the debris that comes off as mentioned but people hurt themselves because the loose track of where the blade is while moving the tool, the part, and both hands around.  It's an fully expose blade, no margin there.  Fully agree on chainsaw, now you are in the fully exposed blade catagory.  On multi-tools, like the one I have, it's battery powered, it dies, you pull the battery off, put a new one on and the tool takes off running (yes, that can be a design issue of the tool, but that's the case for all tools, the design of each comes into play).  Also with the multi tool you may have moved the blade in a different position than you had it all day, you also are using them often to get into awkward spots.  It's very easy to find you turning it and having a running blade right at your face.

Cut off tools, multi-tools and their big even brother the angle grinder get folks in trouble fast.

 

[jimbo51]

I think I still have a recording of Ask This Old House which contains one of the worst safety violations I have ever seen.

Tommy Silva is helping lay down some wood flooring. To fit a piece at a doorway, he does a rip cut in a piece while holding in his bare hand. I still cannot believe they put that out as acceptable behavior.

 

[Birdhunter]

I own a Festool battery jigsaw. It’s a great tool.

I NOW store the saw in the Sustainer with the battery removed. This is after grabbing the saw out of the Sustainer and having it fire up. Scared me. No blood shed.  Lesson learned.

 

[DeformedTree]

I think I still have a recording of Ask This Old House which contains one of the worst safety violations I have ever seen.

Tommy Silva is helping lay down some wood flooring. To fit a piece at a doorway, he does a rip cut in a piece while holding in his bare hand. I still cannot believe they put that out as acceptable behavior.

TOH, NYWS, ATOH. are pretty much the origin of "some safety features have been removed for tv".  You will see lots of bad things be done, and it goes back to it all being normal to the folks. No one is reviewing it to really think if what was done is right.  And if your editing later having a screen show "footage not found", everytime they go to cut something, just isn't going to work.

In the case of TOH, you basically have a situation were Tom is using his own tool, the show is just another job of his company.  He's not getting paid to show off the tools and such (well, till now with Festool sponsorship). He was there just to do the job. Unless they set up the scene to be a focus on safety, they probably won't put much thought to it.  While in-correct use of a tool probably falls under OSHA, you can tell they are more concerned on making sure everyone has safety glasses, harness, hard hats and other stuff that if his people don't have, can get him in trouble real fast.