sander

[leakyroof]

Biggest benefit of Festool sanders to me is still the excellent dust collection.
...

Yep

...
I have not seen any other brand come as close to dustless as Festool.
...

Really?
I beg to differ. What are you comparing them to?

The red sander I have (Mafell UVA 115e) does and awesome job.
Even the $40 Bosch I picked up works like a champ when attached to a vacuum.

There are not that many things that make a sander being dust free.
There are holes in the pad, ports on the machine, and the machines exhaust.
Assuming we are not talking "a machine and a bag", but into an actual vacuum.

To say that Festool sanders are better is a bit of an overstatement these days.
It is all vacuum and almost zero sander.
It seems easier to claim that the FT's are the worst because one needs to turn down the vacuum. The Mirka screens are screens, so like a screen door the air flows through. I do not have have to turn down the vacuum with my 1/2 sheet sander to sand with it, as the air comes in the sides.
The worst sander made and connected onto a vacuum is better than any sander without a vacuum.

The worst one I have is the Festool. But that is mostly because the DX93 has such a barstard of a fitting to get the hose over, it gets most of the dust up just dandy too.

If there is some evidence based measure about how much better they are I would be interested.
But everyone claiming it is so, does not make for fact.
(And I could be wrong)

The CT vacuums (IMO) are a game changer and the whole Festool system is designed around dust collection.
However in the last few years so is everyone else's gear designed to hoover up the dust, and everyone sells a vacuum.

Maybe it is just semantics, and it is more accurate to say that "pioneered" or "have a system" than to say that "they are the best".

I think making a blanket statement that it's all in the Vacuums/ Extractors and little to do with the design of the Sander puts you in a corner straight away.
It would be nice to hear from an Engineer who has created a sander that works with dust extraction on what hurdles they have to overcome to get great performance out of the sander.

 

[AlexThePalex]

I don't see why the vacs are suddenly the game changer and not the sanders. How the sander handles the dust is very important.

For instance, go ahead and use one of the small DTS/RTS/ETS sanders on some plaster without anything attached on the dust port. You will quickly find out how efficient the built in fan is because you will see a straight flow of white dust being spewed out of the dust port on the back. This is only the first line of defence, suction straight through the pad.

If you add a vac to the sander, you can clearly see the second line of defence, dust that is not sucked up through the pad hovers around the sander and is then sucked up somewhere above the pad.

Festool vacs are nothing out of the extraordinary. Dust extractors exist for a very long time already. 30 years ago, in my fathers' company we had a bunch of them, including this one giant that was just a big oil drum on wheels. It had 3 motors on top you could activate individually and it could suck like a black hole. Yet, with the Rupes and Elu sanders attached, dust collection was nowhere near what current Festool sanders achieve. Because the sanders handled the dust very poorly.

Of course the last 7 years I've been handling Festool sanders almost exclusively so I'm not that up to date anymore what the competition does. But I noticed 7 years ago Festool was the only one who had the 8+1 type of holes and today more and more companies like Makita, Rupes and Mafell copy that pattern.

 

[nickao]

In 2015 there isn't a name brand sander that has holes in the pad dust collection that I have used(and I have used every one I could get my hands on),  where I don't get perfect dust collection. But if I put that same sander on a shop vac after a very short period of time the dust collection is crap, well at least less than perfect.

Maybe 10 years ago some sanders were better than others in collecting dust, but now any sander that uses through the pad collection pretty much has it down. It's a simple thing to copy and implement. I have used 20.00 Chinese knock off sanders that get perfect dust collection with a CT or the Fein. Now the sander lasting with the dust going through it is another issue and the better sanders have better designs and/or parts.

Of the sanders that don't have the through the pad collection, Festool is pretty much ahead of the game. The RAS line for instance works so much better than other non through the pad designs I have tried. I haven't tried many, they are not prevalent, but Festools system works great. It's a trickier design and I couldn't believe how well it actually worked on the Festool RAS. If the RAS was larger I would have kept it. One tool I wish Festool would bring over is the larger version. I believe they would sell.

This is why I always suggest people who are interested in containing dust as their main objective get into Festool with a CT vac first if they can afford it.  Then use the CT with their existing cheaper sanders, Porter Cable, Bosch etc.. Then get the Festool sander and routers as the next tools in the sequence. So many get that RO or ETS sanders and find really fast a shop vac doesn't cut it. Some Festool newbs wonder why their new Festool sanders produce swirl marks and why the sander isn't as great as we were saying, unitl they get that CT that is.

 

[Holmz]

...
Of course the last 7 years I've been handling Festool sanders almost exclusively so I'm not that up to date anymore what the competition does. But I noticed 7 years ago Festool was the only one who had the 8+1 type of holes and today more and more companies like Makita, Rupes and Mafell copy that pattern.

Yep.
And the Mirka screens are particularly interesting.

In 2015 there isn't a name brand sander that has holes in the pad dust collection that I have used(and I have used every one I could get my hands on),  where I don't get perfect dust collection. But if I put that same sander on a shop vac after a very short period of time the dust collection is crap, well at least less than perfect.

Maybe 10 years ago some sanders were better than others in collecting dust, but now any sander that uses through the pad collection pretty much has it down. It's a simple thing to copy and implement. I have used 20.00 Chinese knock off sanders that get perfect dust collection with a CT or the Fein. Now the sander lasting with the dust going through it is another issue and the better sanders have better designs and/or parts.

Of the sanders that don't have the through the pad collection, Festool is pretty much ahead of the game. The RAS line for instance works so much better than other non through the pad designs I have tried. I haven't tried many, they are not prevalent, but Festools system works great. It's a trickier design and I couldn't believe how well it actually worked on the Festool RAS. If the RAS was larger I would have kept it. One tool I wish Festool would bring over is the larger version. I believe they would sell.

This is why I always suggest people who are interested in containing dust as their main objective get into Festool with a CT vac first if they can afford it.  Then use the CT with their existing cheaper sanders, Porter Cable, Bosch etc.. Then get the Festool sander and routers as the next tools in the sequence. So many get that RO or ETS sanders and find really fast a shop vac doesn't cut it. Some Festool newbs wonder why their new Festool sanders produce swirl marks and why the sander isn't as great as we were saying, until they get that CT that is.

Yep - I got the vac first, which to be honest was more luck than smarts... If needing a vacuum can be called luck.
I purchased a Karcher model few days prior, which lasted 3 or maybe 4 days. It was a POS.
If it had lasted I might have used that with a sander.

 

[Scott B.]

I don't see why the vacs are suddenly the game changer and not the sanders. How the sander handles the dust is very important.

For instance, go ahead and use one of the small DTS/RTS/ETS sanders on some plaster without anything attached on the dust port. You will quickly find out how efficient the built in fan is because you will see a straight flow of white dust being spewed out of the dust port on the back. This is only the first line of defence, suction straight through the pad.

If you add a vac to the sander, you can clearly see the second line of defence, dust that is not sucked up through the pad hovers around the sander and is then sucked up somewhere above the pad.

Festool vacs are nothing out of the extraordinary. Dust extractors exist for a very long time already. 30 years ago, in my fathers' company we had a bunch of them, including this one giant that was just a big oil drum on wheels. It had 3 motors on top you could activate individually and it could suck like a black hole. Yet, with the Rupes and Elu sanders attached, dust collection was nowhere near what current Festool sanders achieve. Because the sanders handled the dust very poorly.

Of course the last 7 years I've been handling Festool sanders almost exclusively so I'm not that up to date anymore what the competition does. But I noticed 7 years ago Festool was the only one who had the 8+1 type of holes and today more and more companies like Makita, Rupes and Mafell copy that pattern.

I rarely disagree with you, but I will here. Show me 3 other mfr's that have extractors specifically turnkey compatible with their sanders. And oh, show me more than 2 sanders from that mfr. The extractor is the heart and soul of the entire festool system in my humble opinion.

It is the first tool in and the last tool out of every job, without exception.

 

[sae]

I rarely disagree with you, but I will here. Show me 3 other mfr's that have extractors specifically turnkey compatible with their sanders. And oh, show me more than 2 sanders from that mfr. The extractor is the heart and soul of the entire festool system in my humble opinion.

It is the first tool in and the last tool out of every job, without exception.

I'm not sure what you're driving at.

Bosch (Karcher)/Makita (Nilfisk)/Mirka (Nilfisk)/Metabo (Starmix)/Mafell (Starmix)/Flex (Karcher) all have "turnkey" solutions for dust extraction. The vacs are generally quieter and more capable than the equivalently priced Festool vac as well, along with autoclean w/ dual filters, which Festool has failed to embrace, for the same price as the non-autoclean Festool.

Yes, adapters are needed for some tools because there is a set of hose diameters rather than one, but that's really not too different than the need to adapter between the 27/36/50mm hose diameters Festool offers.

 

[Scott B.]

I rarely disagree with you, but I will here. Show me 3 other mfr's that have extractors specifically turnkey compatible with their sanders. And oh, show me more than 2 sanders from that mfr. The extractor is the heart and soul of the entire festool system in my humble opinion.

It is the first tool in and the last tool out of every job, without exception.

I'm not sure what you're driving at.

Bosch (Karcher)/Makita (Nilfisk)/Mirka (Nilfisk)/Metabo (Starmix)/Mafell (Starmix)/Flex (Karcher) all have "turnkey" solutions for dust extraction. The vacs are generally quieter and more capable than the equivalently priced Festool vac as well, along with autoclean w/ dual filters, which Festool has failed to embrace, for the same price as the non-autoclean Festool.

Yes, adapters are needed for some tools because there is a set of hose diameters rather than one, but that's really not too different than the need to adapter between the 27/36/50mm hose diameters Festool offers.

Not driving at anything beyond the reality that I haven't seen a mfr with 4 different capacity extractors and 14 different sanders, some generalists and some specialists.

It is relatively unimpressive for a mfr to have a couple of sanders and an extractor that will fit them when measured by this type of standard.

 

[mwildt]

Biggest benefit of Festool sanders to me is still the excellent dust collection.
...

Yep

...
I have not seen any other brand come as close to dustless as Festool.
...

Really?
I beg to differ. What are you comparing them to?

The red sander I have (Mafell UVA 115e) does and awesome job.
Even the $40 Bosch I picked up works like a champ when attached to a vacuum.

There are not that many things that make a sander being dust free.
There are holes in the pad, ports on the machine, and the machines exhaust.
Assuming we are not talking "a machine and a bag", but into an actual vacuum.

To say that Festool sanders are better is a bit of an overstatement these days.
It is all vacuum and almost zero sander.
It seems easier to claim that the FT's are the worst because one needs to turn down the vacuum. The Mirka screens are screens, so like a screen door the air flows through. I do not have have to turn down the vacuum with my 1/2 sheet sander to sand with it, as the air comes in the sides.
The worst sander made and connected onto a vacuum is better than any sander without a vacuum.

The worst one I have is the Festool. But that is mostly because the DX93 has such a barstard of a fitting to get the hose over, it gets most of the dust up just dandy too.

If there is some evidence based measure about how much better they are I would be interested.
But everyone claiming it is so, does not make for fact.
(And I could be wrong)

The CT vacuums (IMO) are a game changer and the whole Festool system is designed around dust collection.
However in the last few years so is everyone else's gear designed to hoover up the dust, and everyone sells a vacuum.

Maybe it is just semantics, and it is more accurate to say that "pioneered" or "have a system" than to say that "they are the best".

I think making a blanket statement that it's all in the Vacuums/ Extractors and little to do with the design of the Sander puts you in a corner straight away.
It would be nice to hear from an Engineer who has created a sander that works with dust extraction on what hurdles they have to overcome to get great performance out of the sander.

Things that come to mind would be-

Heat, cool sanding pad and paper is preferred. Heat from motor/gearing needs to be guided away as well
Suction, enough but not so much it affects the finish etc, but enough that all dust is removed
Turbulence, its impact on the air flow
Ergonomics, where dust extraction is integrated
Seals and bearings, with the dust extraction flowing more particles near the rotating parts the areas needs to be more protected
Integration with the dust extractors

In regard to heat there was a presentation on what made Festool new pad design better some years back. More details may be found there.

 

[Scott B.]

Mafell seems to come up a lot as "in class"...they appear to offer 2 (two) sanders:

http://katalog.mafell.de/index.php?IdTreeGroup=12945

Mirka comes up a lot. They appear to have 5 and 6" orbitals: http://mirka-online.com/catalogsearch/result/index/?cat=&limit=30&q=sander&gclid=Cj0KEQjw3auuBRDj1LnQyLjy-4sBEiQAKPU_vf9tx-ddsCuTIDqTP-qPk6usRQWvWCe1r4W-vMc52UsaAu3I8P8HAQ

Metabo seems to have an odd array:

http://www.cpooutlets.com/metabo-sanders-and-polishers/metabo-sanders-and-polishers,default,sc.html?ref=googaw&gclid=Cj0KEQjw3auuBRDj1LnQyLjy-4sBEiQAKPU_vTcicmXbZqAHISt5gyekmrYABm7_ISbR6m825vO4IBkaAkf68P8HAQ

Bosch has 3 orbitals and 8 random orbitals according to this:

http://www.boschtools.com/Products/Tools/Pages/ItemResults.aspx?catid=1029

And here is what the extractors look like:

http://www.boschtools.com/Products/Tools/Pages/ItemResults.aspx?catid=1077

Makita shows 4 finishing sanders, 7 random orbitals, a slew of belt sanders. And apparently this is the dust extraction:

http://makitatools.com/en-us/Modules/Tools/Default.aspx?CatID=221

Flex doesn't really seem to be apples to apples. More polishers than sanders it appears. If the "Handy Giraffe" is indicative of the sanders, probably not a great comparison. http://www.flexnorthamerica.com/products/WSE7.php

Kinda not seeing good comparisons across the board yet.

 

[mike_aa]

Here's an interesting video on Festool's "Jetstream" principle for the sanders:

Jetstream

 

[sae]

Kinda not seeing good comparisons across the board yet.

Scott, I'm still confused as to what you're trying to achieve here.

Festool makes the most sanders. Got it.

However, most, if not all, of these portable dust extractors are based around German/European vac units, which stick to the same vacuum port sizes. They should work with Festool/Karcher/Starmix/Nilfisk vacs as well. In fact, before Festool decided to make their own unit, they rebadged Nilfisk units, and still almost all Festool branded accessories are Nilfisk-made. If anything, an $15 adapter is all you need to make them work interchangeably. They should be as turnkey on a Festool vac as they are on a Nilfisk/Karcher/Starmix vac as well.

 

[Scott B.]

Kinda not seeing good comparisons across the board yet.

Scott, I'm still confused as to what you're trying to achieve here.

Festool makes the most sanders. Got it.

However, most, if not all, of these portable dust extractors are based around German/European vac units, which stick to the same vacuum port sizes. They should work with Festool/Karcher/Starmix/Nilfisk vacs as well. In fact, before Festool decided to make their own unit, they rebadged Nilfisk units, and still almost all Festool branded accessories are Nilfisk-made. If anything, an $15 adapter is all you need to make them work interchangeably. They should be as turnkey on a Festool vac as they are on a Nilfisk/Karcher/Starmix vac as well.

I guess I have just never been in the same room with a Nilfisk, Karcher or Starmix...in 3 decades of site based work and lots of time spent in lots of stores. Will have to look out for them.

 

[c_dwyer]

A quick question as I struggle with taking the RO 90 plunge and continuing to try to make copper wire out of pennies. A post or two in this thread raised the issue of cost of the RO 90 sandpaper vs. the 125 or 150, and it got me thinking about how much it might cost me to feed the RO 90 with all the right grit sizes just to get started.

So, for the RO 90, why are the delta sandpapers available in quantities of 10, 50 and 100, while the round sandpapers are only available in 50 and 100? Does anyone offer rounds in quantities less than 50, or a sampler pack?

Thank you for any thoughts, and sorry if this topic was beaten into submission elsewhere.

 

[AlexThePalex]

So, for the RO 90, why are the delta sandpapers available in quantities of 10, 50 and 100, while the round sandpapers are only available in 50 and 100? Does anyone offer rounds in quantities less than 50, or a sampler pack?

Delta papers where already available for the older DX93 sander, which uses the same delta paper as the RO90. That 93 mm delta size is also widely used for sanders of other brands, and that's why I think Festool made 10 packs available for more occasional users.

The RO90 uses 90 mm round disks, and as far as I know it's the only sander that uses this size. I also have not seen these papers from another manufacturer yet, only Festool. I think that's why they only offer large packs of this paper, because they aim exclusively at the professional user and have the monopoly.

In America, maybe FOG member [member=2298]Tom Bellemare[/member] from Tool Home can offer you a special pack with quantities of your choice.

 

[Holmz]

The Mirka sanding screens seem to las a long time.
That is what Mafell is using on their sanders.
The amount of time that the screens last is impressive, and the rate that my 1/2 sheet sander takes it off seems pretty fast to me. I have not used an RO-# so that may not be as fast, but its top RPM is 24000... so it can poke along pretty well.

As far as smaller packs someone posted this week wanting a second person to split an order.

There is some debate about the screens and their effect on the FT sanding pads. I do not understand it, a fellow was on here was selling last week. I bought them to use on the Bosch 5"...

[member=42263]c_dwyer[/member] what are you sanding?
You probaby could get by with 80 & 120 for 90% of it.

 

[mike_aa]

So, for the RO 90, why are the delta sandpapers available in quantities of 10, 50 and 100, while the round sandpapers are only available in 50 and 100? Does anyone offer rounds in quantities less than 50, or a sampler pack?

Tom at Tool-Home has smaller quantity assortments in Granat for various sanders including the RO90 rounds.  He will also customize them for your needs.

Mike A,

 

[travisj]

My dealer let me make an assortment pack when I bought the sandpaper systainer for my ETS 150.  I grabbed 20 each of the grits that I had traditionally used pre-Festool (80-220) and a couple each of some of the higher grits (300+).

 

[rst]

Tom Marino sells most grits in ten packs and also has great service.  I'm in central PA and buy most of Festools and supplies from him.  Oh, and he ships from Ohio.

 

[rst]

Sorry, Bob Marino, I'm old.  Toolnut also carries 10 packs I believe.

 

[c_dwyer]

Thank you everyone, great ideas and options.

Holmz - I'm sanding a range of materials, including bubinga, cherry and walnut, furniture projects and other things that include: stripping rails and styles, detail sanding old sash windows, table legs, existing cabinet refinishing and things that are too narrow for my Bosch 5" sander.

Mostly I'm hoping that it will help get me to enjoy sanding a little bit more so that I don't abandon it too early, or keep me sanding all that much longer to help justify the purchase (got to keep that thing working, you know...). Hoping to replace a few other sanders soon that are not being used that often, for good reasons.