Sanding color coat before clear, pigtails persist

[tiralie]

Tim,

Thank you for taking the time to respond to John. I don't recall ever using a Target product, but I sure have learned a lot about them.

Just wanted you to know John is not the only one who appreciates your willingness to share your knowledge.

Tom

+1000 or more

Thanks Tim.

Tom, Peter
Thanks. I've learned quite a bit from you guys too!
Tim

 

[jhaley]

Tim, mainly-

Your stamina is amazing.

I did see Jeff Weiss's comment and answered it, also have a call in to him. He can't always answer every bozo out here.

(An aside: Jeff Richardson at Wood Essence, Jeff Jewitt, authority and writer on finishing - that's three Jeffs I've dealt with in this area - what's up with all the the Jeffs? Only dealt with one non-Jeff authority, Bob Flexner.)

Also called Festool tech. and they suggested I try their Garnat paper. Special OK-for-waterbase sterated. Ordered some and tried it two days ago. On a door that I hadn't recoated in at least 5 days, probably a week +.

I had just tried abranet 400, 600, and 800 on it and all left pigtails. The finer materials loaded up much more quickly than expected, either because the surface - being sanded off - was harder than underneath, so I was sanding softer and softer stuff, or because soft finishes tolerate coarser grit better than fine, or both. I feel like it was both.

Sanding just as softly as I could. sander on medium speed. And the garnat (500g), being paper, loaded badly within 5-10 seconds. Just can't use paper backed abrasive on this finish. The experience convinced me that the material is misbehaving for some reason. Not hardening as it should, nowhere near the nominal schedule Jeff confirmed for us.

I just feel stuck. I want to work on it but don't know what to do. Honestly, the best suggestion is find some maple and start over. But the top ain't coming off, it would have to be added on top. Of course I'm not gonna do that, just take the best I can get from the existing structure. Or retreat from gloss entirely and sand to a sheen or order some non-gloss em6000.

Suppose I can try the50/50 dna/water wipe - did do some of that on spots but haven't tried critical sanding there yet. Also might try backing up to coarser grit, but that's taking off more finish, and I've put on so much and sanded off so much. Put it on, sand it off, repeat. l don't mind slow progress but this is going in circles.

I'll try attaching some images - notice there's no simple "attach" button here though.

Here's the project in its natural habitat. It's drawers, a cabinet, and doors to go over the drawers:

[attachthumb=1]

Shots of a door sanded out for clear coat, looking fine:

[attachthumb=2]
[attachthumb=3]

Same door up close, not looking so fine (this is without clearcoat!):

[attachthumb=4]
[attachthumb=5]
[attachthumb=6]

Abranet 800g on Festool ETS 150/3 after just a few light careful med-low motor speed passes over the door, about three "lines." Way too much material loading for a door that's not been recoated in a week now - this was today.

[attachthumb=7]

I know what you're thinking as you see that disc. The sanding lines are from the loading. And it must be so. If I wouldn't let it load .  .  . but this was three passes!

And at coarser grits the disc does NOT load like this, and I check FREQUENTLY and vacuum the disc with a brush attachment if there's significant material in it. That's often - don't think I go a whole minute without at least checking. It has to be mini-loading immediately on contact with the soft coating. That's all I can think.

Hope the images worked. You have to click the thumbnail for larger size if all went as intended.

I'm depressed.

 

[tjbnwi]

Seeing as you are having so much grief with this, I'd like to recommend stripping the pieces. The goal here is getting your project done, not causing you more problems.

Seeing as this is red oak, the tannins will be your friend (for once).

Soak steel wool in white vinegar for about a week. You can add some rusty nails. The iron acetate will react with the tannin in the oak. This will give you a black finish. Pour off the liquid through cheese cloth filter. Your other option is black Trans Tint Dye.

Finish with the topcoat of your choice.

Tom

 

[jhaley]

Tom-

Stripping is petty drastic, but as I'm getting nowhere .  .  ..

Either method you mention I get a black stain, in effect? With no need to sand it at all before clear. But I take it this only works on bare wood. All that filler .  .  . couple gallons applied and sanded. A gloss over blackened unfilled red oak, showing all the grain, etc., would be the result? That might look nice, just a whole different animal than I had in mind.

Gotta think on it. Try Jeff again.

I was gravitating toward satin, sanding the gloss clear to satin or getting the satin clear coat to avoid difficulties in obtaining an even sheen starting from gloss. But it occurs - the satin spray will have flaws needing to be sanded out, and as soon as I start sanding it, there I'm back to the issue of an even sheen?

 

[Scott B.]

I'll preface by saying that I'm no expert...finishing can be a mind game. And I think this one is comfortably occupying a nice cushy couch inside your head. You may be asking yourself to produce a result that your mind's eye is insisting upon, but that is beyond the capacity of your finishing program in it's current stage.

I still don't understand why there is so much going on between the color and clear. I get my best results when all the heavy lifting is done prior to color application, and tested to ensure that the results will be desirable in advance of color application.

Alot of this boils down to development of the critical eye. Only, instead of identifying issues after they happen, your eye starts to predict and avoid. I am pretty sure that some of the best finishers in this group, the Tim Raleighs and Thomas Baders, look at the task at hand and can see several different approaches. The chosen approach has to make sense in a sequence, and your sequence has some issues.

I think it is turning into an information overload situation. Just step back and realize that you are fortunate to not be wrestling with this psychology on a commissioned project for a customer who is as critical as you.

My advice would be to find the fun in finishing. When it turns stressful, and into paralysis by analysis, it gets more complicated. You have done due diligence in consulting lots of people and it sounds like you are pulling out of a mixed bag of process and product right now. In the end, as in whitewater rafting, the best rescue is always the self rescue.

Your next project will be ridiculously easy compared to this one.

 

[tjbnwi]

I was looking to go real old school (like when I started 40 + years ago, but can't find any pure lacquer) so we'll go medium old school;

http://www.eastwood.com/eastwood-boulevard-black-paint.html

I really think you got a defective product. Or contamination issues.

Tom

 

[mastercabman]

Just curious,
but why are you sanding the surface before putting the top coat?

 

[tiralie]

Your stamina is amazing.

Been in the "office", doing some paper work, tax etc. so I have some cycles.

I did see Jeff Weiss's comment and answered it, also have a call in to him. He can't always answer every bozo out here.

Yup, I saw that. I would stop using that 6500.

(An aside: Jeff Richardson at Wood Essence, Jeff Jewitt, authority and writer on finishing - that's three Jeffs I've dealt with in this area - what's up with all the the Jeffs? Only dealt with one non-Jeff authority, Bob Flexner.)

Yes, Jeff Richardson's a good guy.

Hope the images worked. You have to click the thumbnail for larger size if all went as intended.

Thanks, they are quite good. Thanks.

I'm depressed.

Been there, it passes and then you start to take it personally and get "medieval" on the project.  [big grin]

I had just tried abranet 400, 600, and 800 on it and all left pigtails. The finer materials loaded up much more quickly than expected, either because the surface - being sanded off - was harder than underneath, so I was sanding softer and softer stuff, or because soft finishes tolerate coarser grit better than fine, or both. I feel like it was both.

Sanding just as softly as I could. sander on medium speed. And the garnat (500g), being paper, loaded badly within 5-10 seconds. Just can't use paper backed abrasive on this finish. The experience convinced me that the material is misbehaving for some reason. Not hardening as it should, nowhere near the nominal schedule Jeff confirmed for us.

I wouldn't be using the 6600 in your schedule anymore. I think you have proven it's not working for you.
I am with Tom.
I would strip off as much of that 6600 as you can, sand back and then I would seal with a 2 part polyester sealer (ICA makes a post catalyzed water borne sealer, but I have never tried it), it's high build and marketed as low shrink back. This gives you a "level" playing ground and a coating that can handle the sanding. I would level sand the sealer and coat with 2 coats of EM600 tinted with Black Mixol let cure and buff etc. or coat with EM 9000.
I would definitely do some test panels (24"x24") first.
Tim

 

[jhaley]

At some point, this thread's going to crash under it's own weight. Wonder if there's any analogy to be made to my project experience there(!). But  meanwhile I'll try to respond to every effort.

Before that, though, as I'm convinced a basic issue is that the material is not hardening nominally or at all, but don't believe the simplest (most likely) explanation is that it's defective, what would cause this? And what can I do to speed up or force hardening?

I've been running ventilation 24/7 lately. Applying heat, heating the whole room or using halogen lamps, seems risky.
________________
Scott B.-
I think you're saying relax, retrench. Basically, that  I'm in over my head, and expecting too much. I am sure the majority of silent followers here have that reaction.  There is that voice in my head, too. Even if true, it's too generalized to be helpful now, on this project, and that's where I am. It's like saying "you'll learn with experience." Well, lets get on with it, then.

I still don't understand why there is so much going on between the color and clear. I get my best results when all the heavy lifting is done prior to color application, and tested to ensure that the results will be desirable in advance of color application.

A lot of this boils down to development of the critical eye.

High intensity flashlight, magnifying glass, special lighting, there's nothing I'm not seeing. I just can't get rid of the sanding lines I am seeing. And the help from the bonding process - erasing flaws, fine scratches, that some seem to expect isn't happening.

Also, another huge bummer, there is a lot that appears (I would say reappears, which has happened, but in the current case it's stuff I've never seen) in the finish days or even weeks after apparently successful clearcoating. Latest example: I've had pieces that sat for ten days at least after being sanded clear of imperfections, to an even sheen, before being clearcoated. They were still apparently perfect when clearcoated. The clearcoat looked good when dry, and still looked good when I showed the wife a week later. I was encouraged. Looked yesterday and imperfections such as I never saw in months of working (on-and-off) on the color coat - grain lines. pinhole farms, are appearing under the clear.

As to doing the heavy lifting before color, My filling process has probably involved 30+ iterations of fill-and-sand. Over a year of on-and-off work. The project sat idle for quite a while when a coat of filler simply could not be sanded. Same issue as now, I suppose. Except then it wasn't something subtle like pigtails, sanding lines. I was using paper (Festool Brilliant) then, and suddenly it was loading immediately. The filler (HSF 5100 then) stuff was soft and wouldn't harden.

And the surface has repeatedly looked perfect except for the nearly invisible sanding lines. Only to have grain lines reappear in time.

The only explanation offered for this is shrinkage of the material as it hardens. No one has ventured why the shrinkage evidences as a mirror of the underlying wood grain after that has apparently  been filled, sanded out, conquered, leaving a smooth surface, again and again.

All this to me indicates slow hardening. Too much material, too thick? Gut thinks it's indicated, but I still manage to sand through when correcting the occasional flub, and in areas, not spots. Plus I've sanded off most of what has gone on. Plus every time I check the mil gauge I'm good.

Is it still possible there's just too much material on the project? I imagine this could cause it to harden slowly, but not to refuse to harden over so much time. And I read of folks successfully putting six coats a day on their guitars. For a couple of days. I've done a lot of filling but basically two coats of color, except in trouble spots or where I sanded it all off.

And a final killer to this theory, I just recalled an instance on horizontal surface where I knew I got too much on - could see it thick and wavy - and when I sanded the panel out, that 5" area behaved just like the rest - no worse, noticed no difference. It sanded out and left the same pigtails on close inspection.

The chosen approach has to make sense in a sequence, and your sequence has some issues.

Evidently. But what, specifically? The only thing I can see I haven't done is experiment. Test outside the project. Well, forget the project, then. Address it as a test, what went wrong?
_____________________
tjbnwi -
Thanks for the suggestion. Have you used it? I will research the Eastwood.

_____________________
mastercabman-

Why am I sanding the color? To begin with, though some of my sprays are pretty good, even with the best results, light sanding will reveal imperfections that I presume will show under clear. And usually there are clear imperfections.

This has come up before, and I find there is some experience/opinion to the effect that the bonding process of the new coat, in this case the clear to the color, melts away or hides imperfections in the underlying coat. And it has been suggested that only the imperfections need to be sanded, that the whole surface does not need to be sanded to match because the clear coat will not show the sanded areas as different from the unsanded. That would certainly be nice, but that is not my experience. My experience is that adding the clear is just like laying a pane of glass over the color. Nothing is hidden, and the gloss highlights any imperfection. Just as sanded looks different from unsanded before the clear coat, it will look different after.

I have not had the experience of sanding and recoating clear coat. I dearly hope that because it is clear over clear any sanding marks in it will vanish. Still, not expecting a lot of help - if I sand at all, I'll sand the whole piece to even appearance.  I would love some input on that, what to expect with clear over clear.

___________________
Tim-

I would strip off as much of that 6600 as you can, sand back and then I would seal with a 2 part polyester sealer (ICA makes a post catalyzed water borne sealer, but I have never tried it), it's high build and marketed as low shrink back. This gives you a "level" playing ground and a coating that can handle the sanding. I would level sand the sealer and coat with 2 coats of EM600 tinted with Black Mixol let cure and buff etc. or coat with EM 9000.

As much as i would like make what I've already done with the 6600 work, I am coming over to something like that - new material. I am going to research what you suggested.

One big fear I have - if the problem is too much finish (see remarks above, I think to Scott, basically my gut says it's acting like that but from my process and other evidence I don't see how it can possibly be so), the too much almost has to be in the filler level, as I'm basically at two coats of color. Some solvent that hasn't escaped working it's way out slow as Christmas and keeping all above it soft. If that's the issue it might affect any top coating. Just a worry.

Target has a good reputation.

THANKS!

 

[Scott B.]

________________
Scott B.-
I think you're saying relax, retrench. Basically, that  I'm in over my head, and expecting too much. I am sure the majority of silent followers here have that reaction.  There is that voice in my head, too. Even if true, it's too generalized to be helpful now, on this project, and that's where I am. It's like saying "you'll learn with experience." Well, lets get on with it, then.

I still don't understand why there is so much going on between the color and clear. I get my best results when all the heavy lifting is done prior to color application, and tested to ensure that the results will be desirable in advance of color application.

A lot of this boils down to development of the critical eye.

High intensity flashlight, magnifying glass, special lighting, there's nothing I'm not seeing. I just can't get rid of the sanding lines I am seeing. And the help from the bonding process - erasing flaws, fine scratches, that some seem to expect isn't happening.

Also, another huge bummer, there is a lot that appears (I would say reappears, which has happened, but in the current case it's stuff I've never seen) in the finish days or even weeks after apparently successful clearcoating. Latest example: I've had pieces that sat for ten days at least after being sanded clear of imperfections, to an even sheen, before being clearcoated. They were still apparently perfect when clearcoated. The clearcoat looked good when dry, and still looked good when I showed the wife a week later. I was encouraged. Looked yesterday and imperfections such as I never saw in months of working (on-and-off) on the color coat - grain lines. pinhole farms, are appearing under the clear.

As to doing the heavy lifting before color, My filling process has probably involved 30+ iterations of fill-and-sand. Over a year of on-and-off work. The project sat idle for quite a while when a coat of filler simply could not be sanded. Same issue as now, I suppose. Except then it wasn't something subtle like pigtails, sanding lines. I was using paper (Festool Brilliant) then, and suddenly it was loading immediately. The filler (HSF 5100 then) stuff was soft and wouldn't harden.

And the surface has repeatedly looked perfect except for the nearly invisible sanding lines. Only to have grain lines reappear in time.

The only explanation offered for this is shrinkage of the material as it hardens. No one has ventured why the shrinkage evidences as a mirror of the underlying wood grain after that has apparently  been filled, sanded out, conquered, leaving a smooth surface, again and again.

All this to me indicates slow hardening. Too much material, too thick? Gut thinks it's indicated, but I still manage to sand through when correcting the occasional flub, and in areas, not spots. Plus I've sanded off most of what has gone on. Plus every time I check the mil gauge I'm good.

Is it still possible there's just too much material on the project? I imagine this could cause it to harden slowly, but not to refuse to harden over so much time. And I read of folks successfully putting six coats a day on their guitars. For a couple of days. I've done a lot of filling but basically two coats of color, except in trouble spots or where I sanded it all off.

And a final killer to this theory, I just recalled an instance on horizontal surface where I knew I got too much on - could see it thick and wavy - and when I sanded the panel out, that 5" area behaved just like the rest - no worse, noticed no difference. It sanded out and left the same pigtails on close inspection.

The chosen approach has to make sense in a sequence, and your sequence has some issues.

"Evidently. But what, specifically? The only thing I can see I haven't done is experiment. Test outside the project. Well, forget the project, then. Address it as a test, what went wrong?"

jh

I do respect your "stick to it-ness", that is a key component in learning. I was just trying to help you keep it in perspective. It does become a mind game sometimes.

As an educator in the field of painting, it is difficult to see this kind of struggle go on for a fellow finisher. And, it is nearly impossible to give an accurate diagnosis online, or even on the phone (I try frequently).

Here is my thought for the day: I was in a session teaching high school aged kids about fine finishing yesterday, and the theme was "what does finish work need to appeal to in order to be successful". It has to look good, and it has to feel good. Sounds simple enough, but becomes so complicated. As you are enduring, there are so many steps that have to go well in order to achieve it. You will emerge from this a better finisher.

PS.
The "eye" I referred to above is more naked eye. I do use syslites obsessively, but mostly in wet inspection to check mil thickness and laydown characteristics. On prep check, as above, I wet it.

I wish I had the correct and specific answer you seek, but in lieu of a live and in person assessment, my opinion is that the problems are arising in the sanding of your color coat (obviously). It really sounds to me like you know what you are doing, and so I am leaning with Thomas Bader, that it may simply be a bad batch of product, a curing issue that is causing the abrasive load up which is leading to the swirling that is plaguing you.

 

[tjbnwi]

Tell me about your shop. Everything you can think of.

Tom

 

[jhaley]

Tom-

It's roughly 13.5'x 34' x 8' upstairs in my 70' x 35' two story farm office. Plywood walls and floor.  Attic space above, gambrel roof. The office has a/c, two units, up and down. No vents in the shop, but the air handling unit for the upstairs unit is in the shop and the shop generally shares the upstairs air through a door at one end. The other has double doors onto a deck. I can control the air in the shop with the a/c.

The workbench with the project on it is 3' x 13.5'. Centrally located over it in the ceiling is an attic fan fan vent which is ducted to the outside from the attic. On the long outside wall is an intake fan ducted and filtered to the outside. I can run one or both, and can adjust speed on the ceiling fan. If I'm spraying in perfect weather I run both, otherwise just the attic exhaust. In that mode it draws only conditioned air from inside the building. That is the fan I am running 24/7 now.

Also have a Jet air cleaner mounted on the ceiling and I run it at night after working.

The 80 gal IR 19.9cfm@40psi, 15.8@90, 15.6@max (175) compressor is on the other side of the shop's long inside wall so it draws conditioned air. Regardless, as we are in SW GA, I don't let it run unless I'm working and I drain it and the line from it to the water filter/ pressure regulator daily. The line is short, just thru the wall to the distribution point. The 15' air hose to the pressure pot or direct to the Sata cup gun connects there.

I have shower curtains, essentially, all around the project and close those when I spray unless it's a touch-up. Still have to periodically vacuum the place for overspray, etc.  Not the cleanest shop in the world right now.

I have an ordinary thermometer/ humidity indicator on the wall and it's generally high 60s (was in winter) to 80 degrees, 40 to 50% humidity, could and probably see 60%.

 

[jhaley]

Scott-

Thanks. I do appreciate the support. Leaning toward trying another material, unless I get in touch with Jeff and he has a steer.

 

[tiralie]

John:
Not that it should matter much, but did you use a waterborne Shellac to seal the HSF 5100?

Before that, though, as I'm convinced a basic issue is that the material is not hardening nominally or at all, but don't believe the simplest (most likely) explanation is that it's defective, what would cause this?

It's not unheard of with Target coatings. That is not to say they are bad but they have had some batches of some products that didn't cure because their raw materials supplier changed their formulations.
This is why I always make a step panel and then a sample (24"x24") board for myself after that is approved. On big projects it's also a good idea to do a draw down as well to check consistency of product.

And what can I do to speed up or force hardening?

At this point I don't know of anything, but that's just me.

I've been running ventilation 24/7 lately. Applying heat, heating the whole room or using halogen lamps, seems risky.

My understanding about waterborne coatings is that once the water has been evaporated out and as long as the temperature stays above 60,  the chemistry (hardeners, sheen etc.) of the curing process is on it's way. My experience with 6000 and 9000 has been as long as I keep the environment warm for 2-4 hours, the coating can withstand freezing temperatures.

Also, another huge bummer, there is a lot that appears (I would say reappears, which has happened, but in the current case it's stuff I've never seen) in the finish days or even weeks after apparently successful clearcoating. Latest example: I've had pieces that sat for ten days at least after being sanded clear of imperfections, to an even sheen, before being clearcoated. They were still apparently perfect when clearcoated. The clearcoat looked good when dry, and still looked good when I showed the wife a week later. I was encouraged. Looked yesterday and imperfections such as I never saw in months of working (on-and-off) on the color coat - grain lines. pinhole farms, are appearing under the clear.

This clearly points to shrink back in the HSF 5100. If there was no noticeable grain after level sanding and you didn't burn through it definitely is the case.

As to doing the heavy lifting before color, My filling process has probably involved 30+ iterations of fill-and-sand. Over a year of on-and-off work. The project sat idle for quite a while when a coat of filler simply could not be sanded. Same issue as now, I suppose. Except then it wasn't something subtle like pigtails, sanding lines. I was using paper (Festool Brilliant) then, and suddenly it was loading immediately. The filler (HSF 5100 then) stuff was soft and wouldn't harden.

And the surface has repeatedly looked perfect except for the nearly invisible sanding lines. Only to have grain lines reappear in time.

The only explanation offered for this is shrinkage of the material as it hardens. No one has ventured why the shrinkage evidences as a mirror of the underlying wood grain after that has apparently  been filled, sanded out, conquered, leaving a smooth surface, again and again.

My guess would be that it (HSF5100)continues to shrink as it cures.

I have not had the experience of sanding and recoating clear coat. I dearly hope that because it is clear over clear any sanding marks in it will vanish. Still, not expecting a lot of help - if I sand at all, I'll sand the whole piece to even appearance.  I would love some input on that, what to expect with clear over clear.

I have literally trashed (scratched while routing etc.) some of the boards I coated with 6000, sanded out the areas that were bad, and re coated and frankly find it difficult to see any evidence of the scratches. The burn in is very good with 6000.  If I stain a poorly sanded board and then clear coat with 60000 and then SC 9000, my sloth is quickly exposed through the coating.
So the lesson for me is if my substrate preparation is crap, I won't get away with it and  it will be exposed through the clear coating.

As much as i would like make what I've already done with the 6600 work, I am coming over to something like that - new material. I am going to research what you suggested.

One big fear I have - if the problem is too much finish (see remarks above, I think to Scott, basically my gut says it's acting like that but from my process and other evidence I don't see how it can possibly be so), the too much almost has to be in the filler level, as I'm basically at two coats of color. Some solvent that hasn't escaped working it's way out slow as Christmas and keeping all above it soft. If that's the issue it might affect any top coating. Just a worry.

If you are afraid of trapped solvent etc. spray two coats of EM 1000. That stuff seals everything. I used it as a seal coat on some furniture recently and it worked very very well. The furniture was painted with EM 6500 tinted with some BM tints but it wouldn't adhere to some metallic paint used as detail to highlight a "quasi" french provincial pattern on the drawer and drawer fronts.

Target has a good reputation.

Yes, it does. I really like their products.
Tim

 

[tiralie]

Here is my thought for the day: I was in a session teaching high school aged kids about fine finishing yesterday, and the theme was "what does finish work need to appeal to in order to be successful". It has to look good, and it has to feel good.

Well said, after all the swearing and throw downs, it's nice when the client walks in the room looks at the cabinet you just delivered and installed walks over, touches it and smiles.
Tim.

 

[tjbnwi]

Your'e wondering why I asked.

I'm was checking if this may not be an environmental contamination issue. You figure this sat about a year in the shop. You state it is above your farm office. Do you park your equipment below the shop? Diesel equipment dumps a lot of particulates in the air. With all of the drying issues I'm look for anything that might cause it. I really do think there is a contamination or incompatibility issue.

Now to the curly cues, I looked at the pictures, I've never seen anything that bad. I can't believe that occurred with a random orbit sander.

With what your'e trying to accomplish, oak would have been my last choice. To much work filling the grain.

Seeing as were trying to get this done a suggestion;

Using the same techniques you have to this point, get a new piece of oak and a new piece of maple. On half of the piece of oak, fill the grain (only half, we want to see if the filler is screwing with you). Once done shoot the products on the test pieces. Lets see what happens.

Tom

 

[Scott B.]

Here is my thought for the day: I was in a session teaching high school aged kids about fine finishing yesterday, and the theme was "what does finish work need to appeal to in order to be successful". It has to look good, and it has to feel good.

Well said, after all the swearing and throw downs, it's nice when the client walks in the room looks at the cabinet you just delivered and installed walks over, touches it and smiles.
Tim.

Thanks Tim. It is a good sign when we are our own worst critics. I am very lucky to have Todd pretty much in charge of our shop operations. Many times, especially lately, if I am solo in the shop on fine finish, I will call him venting about this or that issue that (in the heat of the moment) I feel is blowing my finish. He will come in the next morning and be like "what the heck are you talking about?" Sometimes, you do have to walk away. But the way our minds work, we feel that the only way out is to go further in. I have written alot about the psychology of craftsmanship (and not published most of it yet).

On the client side, it is totally visual and tactile. The visual is taken for granted because it is constant. The tactile is by far the most important in fine finish. There is a whole psychology to that as well (as I am sure you have observed). I actually study what aspects people are drawn to, and how they feel the finish. Valuable intel to file away for those hellish moments when finish is wet and the mind starts playing games.

Bottom line for me is the walkaway. The problem is, we are moving more and more into faster turnaround products. Lenmar wb has been a two edged sword that way. If you don't like it, you can call for the do over in 25 minutes. Fortunately, the finish ghosts about the shop seem to favor it.

 

[jhaley]

Once more into the fray:
_________________________
Tim-

Waterborne, shellac, no. Fesh from flakes dissolved in alcohol. On advice of Jeff to to deal with the Red Oak tannic acid, a barrier coat. Applied over filler, around halfway thru the filling process. Should have been done first, but I didn't  know about then. I see waternborne shellac is questionable for the purpose, don't think I ever knew it existed.

It's not unheard of with Target coatings.

Ugh. Figured that possibility so remote shouldn't be considered. Having all these difficulties, the last thing I want do is point the finger somewhere else. And the coatings are on there - bad coatings not a happy answer for me. Been looking for what I could have done wrong, that could be corrected.

This clearly points to shrink back in the HSF 5100. If there was no noticeable grain after level sanding and you didn't burn through it definitely is the case.

It's really weird how long it can look right and then go wrong. And the 5100 and now even the 5000 have been on there so long! I know because it "can't be" that there must be suspicion that I'm just not seeing straight some days and calling the surface perfect (perfect as to grain lines and such, not sanding  lines) when it's not. No. I'm very critical, I promise. Look at the pictures, and I promise you can look closer, get the light just right, etc., and the surfaces still look just like the pictures.

Your explanation of shrinkage in the filler is logical. If that shrinkage continues what's that going to do to the alternative top coats that have been suggested?

But - that explanation still leaves a mystery to me. (Really one too many.) Mentioned before. I have had the experience repeatedly of being able to sand out the grain and joint lines after they reappear. How can they be on the surface and not underneath if they come from underneath. And they do come form underneath.

I do have a sort-of theory. It goes back to slow hardening/shrinking. If we could see a cross section of the layers of coatings with some sort of demarcation, a line, between the layers, the shape of the surface might be evident in each layer. It's there, on the surface, very subtle after lots of coats, after each new coat. It's revealed clearly when you lightly sand the surface. Sand further and you even it out. Now you have a level surface, but your lines between layers still show the grain undulations. Stress points of some kind.The material hardens/shrinks from the top down. And somehow the shrinking manifests in those undulations.

Not very satisfactory, and I know the layers are supposed to bond in well. But somehow the wood surface flaws are showing up on the finish surface after recoating over level sanded surfaces. Maybe the best answer is its red oak.

The burn in is very good with 6000.

Then perhaps it will burn in on itself. I will try an experiment - if I can get to it I'll post results. It isn't burning in on the  6600, which I thought was essentially tinted 6000.

If I stain a poorly sanded board and then clear coat with 60000 and then SC 9000, my sloth is quickly exposed through the coating.
So the lesson for me is if my substrate preparation is crap, I won't get away with it and  it will be exposed through the clear coating.

That sounds like the 6000 will burn in and hide a bad scratch, but not lesser scratches? Or is it just hiding finish issues and - of course - not hiding unaddressed wood/substrate issues?

The oak was a pretty surface before the first filler.

If you are afraid of trapped solvent etc. spray two coats of EM 1000.

I don't think my speculations are worth much - If you think there's a chance that would get me back on track I'll order some tomorrow. Meanwhile, what sanding, if any, would you recommend?

If the 1000 will really isolate the underlying solvents and thus stop shrinkage showing thru - whatever's happening - no sanding should be needed? Just apply it, sand smooth, and go to color coat again?

I'm presuming it's fine to put color over clear, no issue in bonding, but I think I'd just get rid of the clear, as material that can only cause problems - just to much material. Unless it all acts as filler somewhat, and this is red oak, and filling is a bear. Too much material vs not enough filling.

In the alternative I don't know when to stop sanding, and I know that when I sand enough to get the appearance of some wood color thru the finish I've sanded too much. The Red Oak starts spitting out the filler from the grain. Without a "bridge" over the grain to hold the filler in, it's gone and I'm refilling.

I don't mind sanding if it's getting me somewhere. Sorta like it. But I do hate screwing up a lot of work with finish.

___________________________
Scott-

Luckily, I only have to please the wife and myself. The wife just wants it done. Too bad I know how much time is in this, makes me a bastard to please.

___________________________
tjbnwi

Re

environmental contamination

The office is just an office. It's dusty, but there's a lot less of it upstairs.

I can't believe that occurred with a random orbit sander.

And a Festool. And I can't hand sand, that's even worse on scratch evidence and uneven results. Any sanding without vacuum in the machine/block is futile. And I don't know if you noticed, but I've tried different backing pads and lots of different abrasives. No paper - not Festool brilliant, or garnat, or Mirka gold, works at all. Has to abranet or similar, and that has to be cleaned pretty often.

I have so many materials in so many grits - running out of storage.

It wasn't always that way. And it's not consistent. Sometimes not so bad. When I first started filler I used brilliant and it was fine - nominal sanding. Then a coating just went devil on me and it's been an issue ever since. With abranet actually very manageable till I got to the last sanding before clear. Now what was pretty I know isn't ready for clear.

oak would have been my last choice

Dead right. Maple has been mentioned before. I'm in SW GA. My wood source is Lowe's. Poplar (should have) or RO. I chose the harder wood. Hell being me.

Don't know where I'd go to get specialty hardwood. Probably Atlanta, got some Ash (!) there decades ago. It warped before I really got going with it.

sing the same techniques you have to this point, get a new piece of oak and a new piece of maple. On half of the piece of oak, fill the grain (only half, we want to see if the filler is screwing with you). Once done shoot the products on the test pieces. Lets see what happens.

Worth a try. However, the filler, if that's the issue, didn't start screwing with me till I had - well, let's just say over ten coats on. That's a long test.

I didn't try to order wood online, but I see that's available. Anyone done that? Know a good reliable source of properly cured (!) and finished wood in wider widths?

___________________________
Scott-

Lenmar wb

Caught my eye. I'm attracted to "fast" because it shortens the time you have to live with your crappy results, you can do something about it, and now.  (Why, in tennis, I dislike playing doubles. Have to live so long with bad shots before you get another chance)

Checked their site. Immediately noticed going back to selecting a material is - there's too much to know! - Immediate overload, analysis paralysis.

One thing further, about changing to a new material - I have noticed that the EM6600 does not seem - before clearcoat - to be really jet black. It's a deep gray. For me, blacker is better.

So, OK, just what is the best material to use for a black color coat and top coat id I'm still looking to polish out to gloss?  Soooo open ended.

 

[tjbnwi]

When I'm working in Atlanta (yes, I travel to Atlanta to work) I get my hardwoods from Suwanee Lumber.

http://www.suwaneelumber.com

Strip, glue on brown builders paper with TB II, coat with 3 coats of water TB II mixed 50%, gently sand. Finish.

Tom

 

[tjbnwi]

Another thing (I'd type ONE more thing but...............................)

I've read that the toxins required in the alcohol can affect the shellac. I use Zinnser Seal Coat, it is dewaxed and claims it can be used under any finish.

Tom