Has anyone read the suit(s) regarding this? I tried to find some information, but couldn't get anything substantial. It seems like the suit stipulated that because the technology existed, but ryobi didn't use it, ryobi was at fault. But the same argument can be made that if a product exists with that technology, and one wants that technology, why didn't one buy that product? I feel that, no disrespect to anyone intended, the "general population" is a bunch of morons, but I'd hope that there would be at least one jurist in each trial with at least a little sense.
Shhhhh! Sawstop will release new portable jobsite table saw shortly!!
- Thread starter SittingElf
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Ryobi won that suit.
http://www.woodworkersjournal.com/ryobi-wins-table-saw-safety-litigation/
The saw in question had neither a riving knife nor a saw stop device. It would seem to me that at this point in the game not having a riving knife is a pretty dubious design.
http://www.woodworkersjournal.com/ryobi-wins-table-saw-safety-litigation/
The saw in question had neither a riving knife nor a saw stop device. It would seem to me that at this point in the game not having a riving knife is a pretty dubious design.
I think there was one in boston that ruled for the plaintiff to the tune of $1.5M
http://www.finewoodworking.com/item/115195/stl-72-another-tablesaw-lawsuit
edit:
I think I posted the wrong link... should have been this one (which is several years old):
http://www.finewoodworking.com/item/41527/appeals-court-upholds-osorio-tablesaw-verdict-feds-consider-landmark-safety-standard
http://www.finewoodworking.com/item/115195/stl-72-another-tablesaw-lawsuit
edit:
I think I posted the wrong link... should have been this one (which is several years old):
http://www.finewoodworking.com/item/41527/appeals-court-upholds-osorio-tablesaw-verdict-feds-consider-landmark-safety-standard
Ryobi lost in the retrial.
On Sept. 19, 2014, the jury returned a verdict for Stollings, awarding him $ 1,250,000 for his injuries. Judge Gary Feinerman entered judgment for plaintiff on the same day.
On May 9, 2007, 30-year-old plaintiff Brandon Stollings was using a 10-inch portable table saw designed and manufactured by defendants Ryobi Technologies and One World Technologies and purchased at defendant Home Depot. The saw experienced a kickback toward Stollings , and as a result, he lost his index finger and parts of two other fingers.
Stollings filed a complaint in the United States District Court for the Northern District of Illinois, asserting claims of negligence, strict liability and breach of implied warranty against defendants on July 15, 2008. Stollings claimed that the saw was defective and that the addition of a simple piece of curved metal - called a riving knife -would eliminate nearly all kickbacks. Additionally, Stollings claimed that defendants had not employed other established safety mechanisms, such as flesh-sensing and blade-braking technology. Defendants denied liability.
http://www.lexisnexis.com/legalnewsroom/litigation/b/litigation-blog/archive/2014/10/07/september-jury-verdict-round-up-top-5-verdicts-and-settlements.asp
On Sept. 19, 2014, the jury returned a verdict for Stollings, awarding him $ 1,250,000 for his injuries. Judge Gary Feinerman entered judgment for plaintiff on the same day.
On May 9, 2007, 30-year-old plaintiff Brandon Stollings was using a 10-inch portable table saw designed and manufactured by defendants Ryobi Technologies and One World Technologies and purchased at defendant Home Depot. The saw experienced a kickback toward Stollings , and as a result, he lost his index finger and parts of two other fingers.
Stollings filed a complaint in the United States District Court for the Northern District of Illinois, asserting claims of negligence, strict liability and breach of implied warranty against defendants on July 15, 2008. Stollings claimed that the saw was defective and that the addition of a simple piece of curved metal - called a riving knife -would eliminate nearly all kickbacks. Additionally, Stollings claimed that defendants had not employed other established safety mechanisms, such as flesh-sensing and blade-braking technology. Defendants denied liability.
http://www.lexisnexis.com/legalnewsroom/litigation/b/litigation-blog/archive/2014/10/07/september-jury-verdict-round-up-top-5-verdicts-and-settlements.asp
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Stephen B
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Kev
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Ambulance chasing lawyers and morons that think the world owes them when they screw up. Why not sue Home Depot for selling the twerp the saw, or the mattress company that gave him a bad night's sleep and contributed to the accident ... or the radio station that played a catchy tune and distracted him or the neighbour for the barking dog or the beer company for the six pack he skulled before powering up the saw ... or mother nature for the obviously defective piece of wood.
Gass may well be doing something common and within the terms of the law it may not be illegal ... but it doesn't make it right.
Gass may well be doing something common and within the terms of the law it may not be illegal ... but it doesn't make it right.
SittingElf
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Boy.... as the OP, I didn't intend to start this firestorm!! [crying]
Look guys, here's some reality...
You would be very hard-pressed to find any current SawStop owner who would complain about their saw or have buyer's remorse for their purchase. For that matter, most SawStop owners praise not only the safety features, but the whole design, dust collection, fit and finish of their saws.
A large number of school districts with woodshop academics have mandated that tablesaws in their districts MUST be, or have the SawStop safety features...AND.... there have been a very significant number of finger saves in those schools over the last 10 years.
I was an original beta-tester of the Professional Cabinet Saw (PCS). I have used the saw frequently over the years since it's introduction and have never had the brake fire. I don't buy the argument that the safety feature promotes complacency...it doesn't. That being said, it is a warm-fuzzy feeling to have the confidence that IF I was to have a momentary lapse of concentration, I would likely still have fingers... and therefore not lose my primary occupation as a pilot.
To the arguments about Gass' push for standardization, one might also say the same about the former, and successful pushes for Riving knives, seat belts, GFC electrical outlets, fenced in pools, Doors required to open to the outside for businesses, minimum five leg desk chairs, fire detectors (mandated), safety glass, motorcycle helmets, Dead-Man handles on lawnmowers, daylight headlights, airbags, etc., etc., etc....
All those and more were eventually mandated by government and often pushed by those who might benefit financially.
I am stunned by those who admit that the SS brake system is a very unique, valuable and worthwhile feature, but who say that they wouldn't take advantage of a highly effective safety feature in an otherwise very well designed, and extremely functional, accurate saw because they don't like the fact that the designer thinks his clearly finger-saving feature should be mandated. (This after hundreds, if not thousands, of DOCUMENTED finger saves have been recorded due to the brake).
Finally, I find it humorous that some of the respondents have complained about the potential price of the upcoming saw. This from FOG'ers who have become accustomed to paying very high prices for products that are well-designed, unique, and steps above their cheaper competition. I wonder if they would have the same price hesitation if the SawStop colors were green! [big grin]
Everyone entitled to their own opinion. Not arguing here, but stating MY opinion. To me, some of pushback on Gass is like refusing to buy a particular new car because you don't like the manufacturer's CEO's stand on requiring daylight headlights, etc.. [blink]
Buy or don't buy. I just intended to make my fellow FOG'ers aware that there is a new saw coming out! [wink]
Cheers,
Frank
Look guys, here's some reality...
You would be very hard-pressed to find any current SawStop owner who would complain about their saw or have buyer's remorse for their purchase. For that matter, most SawStop owners praise not only the safety features, but the whole design, dust collection, fit and finish of their saws.
A large number of school districts with woodshop academics have mandated that tablesaws in their districts MUST be, or have the SawStop safety features...AND.... there have been a very significant number of finger saves in those schools over the last 10 years.
I was an original beta-tester of the Professional Cabinet Saw (PCS). I have used the saw frequently over the years since it's introduction and have never had the brake fire. I don't buy the argument that the safety feature promotes complacency...it doesn't. That being said, it is a warm-fuzzy feeling to have the confidence that IF I was to have a momentary lapse of concentration, I would likely still have fingers... and therefore not lose my primary occupation as a pilot.
To the arguments about Gass' push for standardization, one might also say the same about the former, and successful pushes for Riving knives, seat belts, GFC electrical outlets, fenced in pools, Doors required to open to the outside for businesses, minimum five leg desk chairs, fire detectors (mandated), safety glass, motorcycle helmets, Dead-Man handles on lawnmowers, daylight headlights, airbags, etc., etc., etc....
All those and more were eventually mandated by government and often pushed by those who might benefit financially.
I am stunned by those who admit that the SS brake system is a very unique, valuable and worthwhile feature, but who say that they wouldn't take advantage of a highly effective safety feature in an otherwise very well designed, and extremely functional, accurate saw because they don't like the fact that the designer thinks his clearly finger-saving feature should be mandated. (This after hundreds, if not thousands, of DOCUMENTED finger saves have been recorded due to the brake).
Finally, I find it humorous that some of the respondents have complained about the potential price of the upcoming saw. This from FOG'ers who have become accustomed to paying very high prices for products that are well-designed, unique, and steps above their cheaper competition. I wonder if they would have the same price hesitation if the SawStop colors were green! [big grin]
Everyone entitled to their own opinion. Not arguing here, but stating MY opinion. To me, some of pushback on Gass is like refusing to buy a particular new car because you don't like the manufacturer's CEO's stand on requiring daylight headlights, etc.. [blink]
Buy or don't buy. I just intended to make my fellow FOG'ers aware that there is a new saw coming out! [wink]
Cheers,
Frank
SittingElf
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Untidy Shop said:
No. That's their current contractor saw. The new one will be fully portable and on a stand as far as we know.
Cheers,
Frank
I have only seen a Saw Stop once, a cabinet saw. Was seriously impressed and felt the quality was far better than PM, Delta, Jet. Price matched the apparent quality, over $3000 if I remember right.
This job site saw interests me as I have been looking for a portable saw for my hobby use and am not impressed at all by the ones currently on the market. The newest Dewalt is top of my list right now. Not sure how interested I will be at $1300!!!! Oh and early reports say it is around 80# without the stand.
As to the blade brake, well I really don't think much of it but will be a useful bargaining point to use with the wife.
This job site saw interests me as I have been looking for a portable saw for my hobby use and am not impressed at all by the ones currently on the market. The newest Dewalt is top of my list right now. Not sure how interested I will be at $1300!!!! Oh and early reports say it is around 80# without the stand.
As to the blade brake, well I really don't think much of it but will be a useful bargaining point to use with the wife.
AlexThePalex
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Frank, good post. Agree 100%.
I like to make stuff out of wood, and a table saw is very useful for that. But I find it a scary bugger, and would love to have this thing as safe as possible. As an avid musician, playing guitar and keyboard/piano, I wouldn't want even the slightest thing happen to my digits. I always use one or two push sticks to keep my hands as far away from the blade as possible. I shiver inside when I see professionals do everything by hand and place their fingers within 1 cm of the blade. Seen that many times.
I agree with other people that your own responsability is very important. Neverthless, if the technology is there, let's use it. The cost argument is pointless I think, because adding SawStop technology wouldn't cost that much, like between 50 and 100 and not more. Pocket change when you think in Festool money. Small price for so much extra safety. The table saw is one of the most dangerous power tools out there.
I like to make stuff out of wood, and a table saw is very useful for that. But I find it a scary bugger, and would love to have this thing as safe as possible. As an avid musician, playing guitar and keyboard/piano, I wouldn't want even the slightest thing happen to my digits. I always use one or two push sticks to keep my hands as far away from the blade as possible. I shiver inside when I see professionals do everything by hand and place their fingers within 1 cm of the blade. Seen that many times.
I agree with other people that your own responsability is very important. Neverthless, if the technology is there, let's use it. The cost argument is pointless I think, because adding SawStop technology wouldn't cost that much, like between 50 and 100 and not more. Pocket change when you think in Festool money. Small price for so much extra safety. The table saw is one of the most dangerous power tools out there.
Only a few things to add, as Frank and Alex have put my thoughts down nicely. When I was about seven I reached up on my Dad's TS to remove a small off-cut. Big mistake for which I paid severly, but luckily not permanently. My Dad was not careless. He had alwYs warned me to watch from a distance, that I could get hurt, etc., but I thought I knew better, being all grown up and all.
Years later, my Dad and I put seat belts in our'61 Ford Falcon. We were in an accident in which he died and I lived. My seat belt not only kept me in the car but my Mother as well, as we spun around on the icy road. I remember seeing the same scene three times with my head about a foot off the pavement and my Mother's weight bearing down on me. It was another four or five years, I think, before belts were mandated, and a quite a few more before their use was mandatory and I listened to the same arguments and even vitriol, about loss of freedom, personal responsibility, etc.
Lastly, if Gass was all about greed why has he made all other aspects of his saws so good? He could have just relied on his safety device to drive sales. Instead, he made a very fine saw in its own regard, one that would sell pretty well at nearly the same price but without the device. That is not an approach driven by greed.
One more thing: Amongst your other talents, Alex, you can also brilliantly think and type at the same time. [not worthy]
Years later, my Dad and I put seat belts in our'61 Ford Falcon. We were in an accident in which he died and I lived. My seat belt not only kept me in the car but my Mother as well, as we spun around on the icy road. I remember seeing the same scene three times with my head about a foot off the pavement and my Mother's weight bearing down on me. It was another four or five years, I think, before belts were mandated, and a quite a few more before their use was mandatory and I listened to the same arguments and even vitriol, about loss of freedom, personal responsibility, etc.
Lastly, if Gass was all about greed why has he made all other aspects of his saws so good? He could have just relied on his safety device to drive sales. Instead, he made a very fine saw in its own regard, one that would sell pretty well at nearly the same price but without the device. That is not an approach driven by greed.
One more thing: Amongst your other talents, Alex, you can also brilliantly think and type at the same time. [not worthy]
Sparktrician
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SittingElf said:
Frank, the firestorm isn't so much about the technology, the quality of the machine or the safety margin it provides. It's all about Pat Gass being a "Gasshole".
I am along the same line of thought, as I sold my larger table saw, but I've always thought having one of the jobsite saws in the corner COULD be useful, if they could have good DC, stable fence, etc.
Interested to see what comes out.
Interested to see what comes out.
grbmds said:
Michael Kellough
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Sparktrician said:
So you've met the guy? Or are you just passing on hearsay, rumor and innuendo? Aka bull****.
SittingElf
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Sparktrician said:
LOL! [big grin] Well.... with over 50,000 saws sold so far, I'm sure he really doesn't care what opinions of him are, just so long as their saws continue selling at the rate they are now. One could make the argument that the Safety system is already becoming THE standard for cabinet saws in the U.S., considering that SawStop is selling more saws than any other individual company.
I might also point out that other people, like Steve Jobs, shared disdain by people who vehemently disagreed with him....and there were many, inside and outside of the computer/phone industry. (Think TV, Movie, and Music artists in the beginning of iTunes...and certainly phone companies like Nokia, RIM, and Samsung!)
Another example is DirecTV and DishNet. The Cable companies, who previously had a monopoly on multi-channel TV within their contracted locations, were up in arms over the dish networks invading their "territory". Now, both the cable AND the dish networks are screaming about the coming internet-based al la carte TV shows....starting with HBO shortly.
All comes down to appearance, and I agree that Gass has not been the best spokesman for a revolutionary development. That being said, if I were in his shoes, I'd be trying every avenue to cash in on my invention as well. We DO live in a capitalist society.
Cheers,
Frank
Michael Kellough
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Cochese said:
So you've met him too?
I seldom get involved in sidetracks like this (these days anyway) but it really gripes me that you guys are devaluing the forum by repeating unsubstantiated gossip. Basing opinion on gossip is just nonsense.
By the way, the guy's name is Steve Gass, not Pat. Those that want to get a better idea of the guy should read this FWW interview. Reading the comments you get a good example of how opinion based on misreading or shear ignorance can really run a thread off the rail.
NERemodeling
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SittingElf said:
Excellent post!
