Shhhhh! Sawstop will release new portable jobsite table saw shortly!!

[Alan m]

i see this technology as a great innovation to the industry.
if this technology was available  on other saws I would buy it.

I think he should have developed the technology  then sold the use to other manufacturers.
most people wont criticise the technology or the saws its in but rather the way he went about driving sales.
if he hade not went down the mandating his technology's route he would be better off. most buyers would seriously consider buying his saw
I know I would

maybe down the line it would be mandates independently  and he would benefit greatly.

when the other companies finalise their versions  I can see saw stop rapidly loosing market share.
and totally  justified If I say so

 

[elfick]

I think he should have developed the technology  then sold the use to other manufacturers.
most people wont criticise the technology or the saws its in but rather the way he went about driving sales.

From what I understand, this is actually what he tried. From what I've read, he invented the tech and tried to license it to saw manufacturers, but no one would use it so he created his own brand.

Saw stop saws and creator aside, my real problem with this situation is the lack of personal responsibility. People remove guards and operate the tools in an unsafe manner and then blame the manufacturer.

If I crush my toe and a steel toe boot would have prevented that, is the shoe manufacturer to blame because I decided to buy the shoe without the steel toe?

The whole situation just bums me out.

 

[wow]

I have stayed out of the debate, but will jump in here with an observation: If this verdict is ultimately upheld on further appeal - not a sure thing by any means - the outcome may not be what Mr. Gass desires.

If his patent is ruled as an 'essential' patent to the the technology of table saws - which is where this award is heading - he would be forced to sell it to anyone who builds a table saw. He would have no rights to enforce his patents beyond the royalty. Anyone could copy the patent freely, with impunity, as long as they pay the royalty.

More troubling for him, though, is that he will not determine the royalty price. That will be set by the courts. He will be allowed what they determine is 'fair' - which, if Apple and Samsung are any examples, will be a few dollars per saw. $3 per table saw times - say - 333,333 saws = One million dollars. Not bad for just collecting royalties, but I'll bet FAR LESS than what he wanted to get from other manufacturers.

And it could cost him MILLIONS to fight such an action.

Sometimes it's wise to be careful what you wish for...

 

[junk731]

My main concern with the small light weight saw would be how many firings it would take before the saw was total junk. The assembly in the bigger saws is designed to take a hit but it shows signs of heavy runout after several firings. It would be interesting if one of their many recorded misfires was enough to junk this small saw. My money is still for better training in both use and safety, let Darwin take care of the rest.

John

 

[VW mick]

Frank

See what you've gone and done lol ..you was only saying there is a new saw coming out

 

[Gary in Texas]

My main concern with the small light weight saw would be how many firings it would take before the saw was total junk. The assembly in the bigger saws is designed to take a hit but it shows signs of heavy runout after several firings. It would be interesting if one of their many recorded misfires was enough to junk this small saw. My money is still for better training in both use and safety, let Darwin take care of the rest.

John

Perhaps viewed a different way, the cost of the saw if junked, even after one emergency stop, would be well worth the cost to replace as compared to losing a finger(s), or those of an employee.

Accidents occur, even in the most robust safety programs. 

 

[Gary in Texas]

I think he should have developed the technology  then sold the use to other manufacturers.
most people wont criticise the technology or the saws its in but rather the way he went about driving sales.

From what I understand, this is actually what he tried. From what I've read, he invented the tech and tried to license it to saw manufacturers, but no one would use it so he created his own brand.

Saw stop saws and creator aside, my real problem with this situation is the lack of personal responsibility. People remove guards and operate the tools in an unsafe manner and then blame the manufacturer.

If I crush my toe and a steel toe boot would have prevented that, is the shoe manufacturer to blame because I decided to buy the shoe without the steel toe?

The whole situation just bums me out.

I too recall reading this, the saw manufacturers did not want to add the Sawstop feature to their products, many/all declining due to cost.  Gass went down the path of trying to have the SawStop mandated, met resistance, and eventually produced his own design of table saws. 

i see this technology as a great innovation to the industry.
if this technology was available  on other saws I would buy it.

when the other companies finalise their versions  I can see saw stop rapidly loosing market share.
and totally  justified If I say so

From everything I've read, and my close up inspection on the Sawstop table saws, they are a step above in features and class to the Delta, Jets and Powermatics of the world.  Sawstop will not lose any market share when/if other brands add a similar device to their product offering unless the other brands improve on their designs to meet or exceed the Sawstop in form, fit and function (in terms of safety, dust collection, and design - all achieved/bettered by Sawstop).  I do not own a Sawstop, I have a Jet Cabinet Saw, but if i ever do replace it, I would definitely purchase the Sawstop.

 

[wrightwoodwork]

Surely people are responsible for their own saftey not some piece of technology. I'm all for being safe. And my view to it, is it should be the last line of defence. Saftey starts with the operator, now if they are stupid enough to remove guards, pass there fingers beyond a certain point in relation to the blade and not get proper training on how to use and safe working practices. Accidents sadly do happen all practical steps should have being taken before the technology is needed to kick in.

 

[aktrout]

I had an interesting conversation with the owner/manager of a woodworking power tool seller in Northern Virginia.  He carried most of the major brands:  SawStop, Powermatic, Jet, Festool, etc. He indicated that he mostly sold to the Federal government. 

He indicated that the previous year SawStop had sold 20,000 table saws and that the combined sales of the next two best selling table saws for the year was only 3,000 saws.  That is quite a difference and says something about the acceptance of the SawStop. 

I was a bit taken back by those numbers.  I questioned him about it pretty carefully, but he was adamant.  Since he sold all three brands of saws in question I don't think he had any biases.  This is very interesting if true. 

 

[WastedP]

My money is still for better training in both use and safety, let Darwin take care of the rest.

Perhaps viewed a different way, the cost of the saw if junked, even after one emergency stop, would be well worth the cost to replace as compared to losing a finger(s), or those of an employee.

Accidents occur, even in the most robust safety programs. 

I'm all for population control, but I agree with the notion of looking at total costs.

Employees do not always follow every mandated rule and policy in a workshop.  If somebody does something stupid, I'd rather have to buy a whole new saw for $1600 than have a conversation with some guy's family in the waiting room while he gets his gristle sewn back on.  Don't forget about the conversation with the industrial commission and workman's comp people later.

My father-in-law stuck his fingers in his Powermatic a few years ago.  His insurance company could've bought ten saws for what it ended up costing.

 

[jimbo51]

I agree with the comments that implementing this technology in other small saws will likely add closer to $500 than $50 to the price. If the new Sawstop weighs 80 pounds, it likely means that the frame has been made much heavier to withstand the shock of the blade stopping mechanism. That means that almost all small saws on the market will have to be redesigned completely.

The license fee will take into account the likely number of saws sold each year. In the computer world a fee of a few dollars is meaningful because the sales are in the millions. In the table saw world where the sales are in the 10-100,000 range, a license fee of $200 might be considered reasonable. Then there is the price of the cartridge and the sensing module etc. Taken with the redesign etc, I think a price of $800-1000 might be the lower end.

I do not think that the original verdict will stand all the way up the appeals process. When the saw involved in the accident was built, Sawstop did not actually have a small saw module ready to go. Even if it had been available, there were no laws or regulations requiring its use.

In automobiles, new safety technologies are mandated over time. If this ruling stands, a person involved in an accident while driving a $20,000 car could sue because technology available in $60,000 cars was not installed. Somewhere the concept of you get what you pay for should be taken into consideration.

 

 

[Michael Kellough]

I'm sorry to disrupt Frank's thread about a new more affordable Saw Stop.
It's good news for those who value their fingers.

But, it really bugs me to read so many ignorant comments.
It's easy to ape what you read on the internet.
It's also pretty easy to find out if what you read is factual.

I'm challenging the authors of the following comments to provide links
to the documentation supporting their allegations.

It's time to put up or shut up.

"His actions are well documented.

if he hade not went down the mandating his technology's route he would be better off.

I won't ever buy one because of the guys bs tactics to try and force it on every saw...

Gass should mind his own business and stop trying to force his will on others.

When I first heard about him a few years ago now.  I decided I didn't like his tactics.

Gass is not a sympathetic figure because he not only wanted to force legislation,

a greedy individual who tried to make laws passed in order to make himself rich.

It's all about Pat Gass being a "Gasshole".  "

 

[Knight Woodworks]

Hey Frank,

Thanks for the update. I've been wondering when the new SS portable would be available.

John

 

[andvari]

My main concern with the small light weight saw would be how many firings it would take before the saw was total junk. The assembly in the bigger saws is designed to take a hit but it shows signs of heavy runout after several firings. It would be interesting if one of their many recorded misfires was enough to junk this small saw. My money is still for better training in both use and safety, let Darwin take care of the rest.

John

Do you have a source for the comment about heavy runout and many misfirings? I haven't seen that anywhere else.

 

[richy3333]

Im still flummoxed at how the safety mechanism works but if it continues to save those sausages from being cut in half its got to be a good thing

 

[Kev]

Im still flummoxed at how the safety mechanism works but if it continues to save those sausages from being cut in half its got to be a good thing

It really rattles me ... it's a heated topic and I am still very much against what I see being a somewhat crude mechanism that has a narrow range on benefits (any procedure that places body parts near a fast moving blade is stupid!)

*** "narrow" is my view point, it's OK to have a different one - but appreciate mine ***

I also hate stealing from the poor and giving it to the rich. If you want to do something good for the people ... stop them smoking!

ANYWAY ... I've decided to take a fresh perspective on this. If saw stop takes one tiny step towards putting ambulance chasing lawyers out of business because of less opportunities it'd be a good thing. BUT, I sincerely hope this is because it is purchased by choice, not my mandate.

If politicians and laws come it to play I think it would be better to take a different approach and rather than mandating the blade destroying and easy to switch off sausage saver ... a line should be drawn in the sand that states that any table saw sold within the specified domain by 20nn will need to have positive safety systems the prevent/reduce the incidence of injury type A, injury type B, injury type C.

As for Gass ... he's been observed cramming sausages into shoes and registering the name "mower stop". So soon you'll be able to mow your foot and sue [wink]

 

[junk731]

My main concern with the small light weight saw would be how many firings it would take before the saw was total junk. The assembly in the bigger saws is designed to take a hit but it shows signs of heavy runout after several firings. It would be interesting if one of their many recorded misfires was enough to junk this small saw. My money is still for better training in both use and safety, let Darwin take care of the rest.

John

Keep reading and look for the information, I'm not going to do your research for you. Most of the info on these subjects is brief because the Sawstop crowd are like isheep, they can't believe anything could be wrong with there decision or purchase. Very few tell the true story or don't know what to look for after a firing. Like all things on the internet subjects can found easily or buried easily. On the upside Sawstop seems to provide good service on repair parts. Their machines are extremely well built and have good fit and finish but they should considering what they cost to buy. Something for you to think about, why hasn't Festool entered into an agreement to use Sawstop tech in their portable tablesaws.

John

Do you have a source for the comment about heavy runout and many misfirings? I haven't seen that anywhere else.

 

[wrightwoodwork]

Just being thinking on my cordless saw it has an electronic brake and when I release the trigger it stops there and then. Obviously it doesn't know the difference between fingers and wood. I'm just wondering if manufactures could use the electronic brake along with the sensor to trigger the electronic brake. I'm with kev your fingers shouldn't be any where near the blade to trigger the sensor

 

[AlexThePalex]

I agree with the comments that implementing this technology in other small saws will likely add closer to $500 than $50 to the price.

I'd really wish you wouldn't just throw some numbers on the table. From Wikipedia:

The PTI objects to the licensing necessary due to the "more than 50 patents" related to SawStop's braking system; such costs "would destroy the market for the cheapest, most popular saws, adding $100 or more to the price of consumer models that typically sell for less than $200."

And since the PTI is an organisation of tool companies that oppose SawStop technology, their figure is probably a bit inflated for added effect. 

a license fee of $200 might be considered reasonable. Then there is the price of the cartridge and the sensing module etc. Taken with the redesign etc, I think a price of $800-1000 might be the lower end.

Again from Wikipedia: In January 2002, SawStop appeared to come close to a licensing agreement with Ryobi, who agreed to terms that involved no up-front fee and a 3% royalty based on the wholesale price of all saws sold with SawStop's technology

So for a $300 saw that would add up to a $9 licensing fee. Hardly the $200 you "envision".

 

[andvari]

My main concern with the small light weight saw would be how many firings it would take before the saw was total junk. The assembly in the bigger saws is designed to take a hit but it shows signs of heavy runout after several firings. It would be interesting if one of their many recorded misfires was enough to junk this small saw. My money is still for better training in both use and safety, let Darwin take care of the rest.

John

Do you have a source for the comment about heavy runout and many misfirings? I haven't seen that anywhere else.

[quote author=junk]
Keep reading and look for the information, I'm not going to do your research for you.[/quote]

In other words, no. Thanks for playing.