Shop Cabinets - Assembly Time Issue with Domino's

[Bugsysiegals]

I'm building cabinets for my basement wood shop, am on the first cabinet, used Domino's throughout, was considering to put the cabinet together as outlined below, but cannot glue, align, and clamp the cabinet in less than 3-5 minutes open time for Titebond II and have serious doubts if I could even do it in 8-10 minutes open time for Titebond III.

Instead of having the deck on the ground would it be better to put the back on the ground, assemble the partition/stretchers, lay them onto the back, add the sides, and finally deck/top?  Should I glue half of each Domino into one piece of wood before final assembly to reduce the amount needing glue and to speed things up?  Should I avoid the Domino's for the stretchers and instead install them after the cabinet is glued up using Kreg screws?

FWIW - I made many mistakes with the Domino.  Some mistakes I've learned from while others will have to be avoided with experience.  That said, this is my first cabinet ever, but am wondering whether Dado's, Rabbits, Kreg screws, are the quicker and easier method for cabinet building and assembly rather than Domino's ... perhaps they are better suited for other projects?

Bottom of the cabinet with Domino's installed
View attachment 1

Partition with pre-finished side
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Partition unfinished side ... should I spray this after the cabinet is glued and I'm spraying the exterior?  What happens if I spray over existing clear coat on other interior parts?
View attachment 3

Stretchers with Domino's ... could be enough "meat" to switch to Kreg screws if needed?
View attachment 4

Stretchers attached to the partition
View attachment 5

Right side ready to attach to the back
View attachment 6

Right side attached to the back
View attachment 7

Right side attached to stretchers
View attachment 8

Left side ready to be attached
View attachment 9

Cabinet assembled ... needs to be set on top of the bottom and then have the top applied
View attachment 10

 

[ChuckM]

Can't tell from the photos if you are using a narrow setting on one side and a wide setting on the mating side (except the first one on narrow for alignment purposes). If you used narrow settings on everything, the glue-up is tougher.

Not knowing the exact details of your cabinet and shelving, I would approach the glue-up in this manner:

1) Dry-fitting everything to determine the best glue-up sequence (and write it down (see pdf for an angled through dovetail joinery assembly), or take step-by-step snap shots, if necessary, on your cellphone so you can follow or refer to), and have the clamps/cauls ready.
2) Break down the whole assembly into sub-assemblies (I would wait for the first sub-assembly or sub-assemblies to cure before moving on, if necessary.)
3) Glue all the dominoes into the narrow mortises on one side/edge first (my approach: microwave the dominoes before hammering them in)
4) Use Old Brown glue or liquid hide glue (longer working time, and can be reversed), if you feel that you really need extra time
5) Most helpful advice?: Get a helper or two (your family)! Brief him/her/them ahead of their roles/tasks (glue the dominoes, pass/hold the clamps, wipe off excess glue, etc.) and your assembly sequence. The "joint venture" can be a family fun.  [cool]

 

[Bugsysiegals]

Can't tell from the photos if you are using a narrow setting on one side and a wide setting on the mating side (except the first one on narrow for alignment purposes). If you used narrow settings on everything, the glue-up is tougher.

I'd read many people indicating they did not like the wider setting and preferred the standard width on all mortises which is what I went with.  Some parts go together easy while others require some moving around and soft mallet to make them go into position.

Not knowing the exact details of your cabinet and shelving, I would approach the glue-up in this manner:

1) Dry-fitting everything to determine the best glue-up sequence (and write it down (see pdf for an angled through dovetail joinery assembly), or take step-by-step snap shots, if necessary, on your cellphone so you can follow or refer to), and have the clamps/cauls ready.
2) Break down the whole assembly into sub-assemblies (I would wait for the first sub-assembly or sub-assemblies to cure before moving on, if necessary.)
3) Glue all the dominoes into the narrow mortises on one side/edge first (my approach: microwave the dominoes before hammering them in)
4) Use Old Brown glue or liquid hide glue (longer working time, and can be reversed), if you feel that you really need extra time
5) Most helpful advice?: Get a helper or two (your family)! Brief him/her/them ahead of their roles/tasks (glue the dominoes, pass/hold the clamps, wipe off excess glue, etc.) and your assembly sequence. The "joint venture" can be a family fun.  [cool]

Thanks, great tips!

 

[ChuckM]

Can't tell from the photos if you are using a narrow setting on one side and a wide setting on the mating side (except the first one on narrow for alignment purposes). If you used narrow settings on everything, the glue-up is tougher.

I'd read many people indicating they did not like the wider setting and preferred the standard width on all mortises which is what I went with.  Some parts go together easy while others require some moving around and soft mallet to make them go into position.

"Narrow to wide" mortise placements allow for human imperfections (i.e. if you did not cut all the mortises dead-on, which is not unusual). As long as the first mating mortises are all cut in the narrow settings so the mating parts can be aligned properly (flush or offset depending on the design desired), there are no practical disadvantages I can think off to this approach. The only exception to this is when you need the max. joinery strength, use narrow settings on all mating parts. An example is joining an apron to the legs in a table, or rails to stiles in a door.

People who insist on a "narrow to narrow" placement approach may have their own reasons, but not because the alternative approach is inferior, especially when you have a lot of dominoes to align and work with.

By the way, if you use the "narrow to wide" mortises approach, always glue the dominoes into the narrow mortises first (and let them sit for a few minutes).

 

[ear3]

You might want to add some pocket holes whatever you end up doing, simply because the clamping on that cabinet will be a nightmare with all the pressure points you have to hit.

I'm building cabinets for my basement wood shop, am on the first cabinet, used Domino's throughout, was considering to put the cabinet together as outlined below, but cannot glue, align, and clamp the cabinet in less than 3-5 minutes open time for Titebond II and have serious doubts if I could even do it in 8-10 minutes open time for Titebond III.

Instead of having the deck on the ground would it be better to put the back on the ground, assemble the partition/stretchers, lay them onto the back, add the sides, and finally deck/top?  Should I glue half of each Domino into one piece of wood before final assembly to reduce the amount needing glue and to speed things up?  Should I avoid the Domino's for the stretchers and instead install them after the cabinet is glued up using Kreg screws?

FWIW - I made many mistakes with the Domino.  Some mistakes I've learned from while others will have to be avoided with experience.  That said, this is my first cabinet ever, but am wondering whether Dado's, Rabbits, Kreg screws, are the quicker and easier method for cabinet building and assembly rather than Domino's ... perhaps they are better suited for other projects?

Bottom of the cabinet with Domino's installed
View attachment 1

Partition with pre-finished side
View attachment 2

Partition unfinished side ... should I spray this after the cabinet is glued and I'm spraying the exterior?  What happens if I spray over existing clear coat on other interior parts?
View attachment 3

Stretchers with Domino's ... could be enough "meat" to switch to Kreg screws if needed?
View attachment 4

Stretchers attached to the partition
View attachment 5

Right side ready to attach to the back
View attachment 6

Right side attached to the back
View attachment 7

Right side attached to stretchers
View attachment 8

Left side ready to be attached
View attachment 9

Cabinet assembled ... needs to be set on top of the bottom and then have the top applied
View attachment 10

 

[Mike Goetzke]

I'm not a pro but have built many cabinets. I've used dado/rabbet, biscuit, pocket screws, and domino tenons. Depends on your job size but for a large job I like dado/rabbet and smaller job dominos.

For large glue-ups, like you have, I've been taught to use a small diameter foam roller maybe 3"-4" wide paint roller and tray to glue the edges this save a LOT of time. Put the roller/tray in a zip lock and put it in the frig until you are ready again.

I too only use the domino wide setting.

(edited: one other thing to help speed things up maybe I'm in the wrong but I use less than 1/2 the number of tenons you show.)

Mike

 

[DynaGlide]

Good for you for asking first. I think something that complex you're forced to use a very slow glue like the previously mentioned hide glue.

I'd think Titebond of any variety would be out of the question for this. Although they do make a brown glue. Might be worthwhile. Either which way get one or two people to help. If possible you can do it in sections. It'd take me an hour just to spread glue on all those dominos.

 

[Bugsysiegals]

I'm not a pro but have built many cabinets. I've used dado/rabbet, biscuit, pocket screws, and domino tenons. Depends on your job size but for a large job I like dado/rabbet and smaller job dominos.

For large glue-ups, like you have, I've been taught to use a small diameter foam roller maybe 3"-4" wide paint roller and tray to glue the edges this save a LOT of time. Put the roller/tray in a zip lock and put it in the frig until you are ready again.

I too only use the domino wide setting.

(edited: one other thing to help speed things up maybe I'm in the wrong but I use less than 1/2 the number of tenons you show.)

Mike

Thanks for the foam roller idea!  I'd read to use Domino's every 6" ... is this not true and how many should be used instead?  These Domino's aren't really for strength and more for alignment so I suppose I could've used half?

 

[junk731]

Well you will keep Festool in the business of making dominos. LOL Major overkill. Eliminate the glue and screw/pockethole the the unit together especially with that many dominos as other have also suggested. I do this for a living and for this type of cabinet never glue anything together, to hard to make alterations in the future and the glue gives no benefit in a properly designed and accurately cut cabinet.

 

[Bugsysiegals]

Well you will keep Festool in the business of making dominos. LOL Major overkill. Eliminate the glue and screw/pockethole the the unit together especially with that many dominos as other have also suggested. I do this for a living and for this type of cabinet never glue anything together, to hard to make alterations in the future and the glue gives no benefit in a properly designed and accurately cut cabinet.

Would you use pocket holes only in the remaining cabinets or both?  If both, how many Domino's and pocket holes would you recommend per side (3 for depth/height and 5 for width)?

 

[semenza]

I like pocket holes and dominos, sometimes glue (Lee Valley Cabinet Makers glue open time 15 - 20 minutes). The PH screws eliminate the need for clamps.

Seth

 

[Sparktrician]

I like pocket holes and dominos, sometimes glue (Lee Valley Cabinet Makers glue open time 15 - 20 minutes). The PH screws eliminate the need for clamps.

Seth

Concur.  I use Titebond III with 8-10 minute open time.  I really like the combination of dominoes and pocket screws. 

 

[Bugsysiegals]

Well you will keep Festool in the business of making dominos. LOL Major overkill. Eliminate the glue and screw/pockethole the the unit together especially with that many dominos as other have also suggested. I do this for a living and for this type of cabinet never glue anything together, to hard to make alterations in the future and the glue gives no benefit in a properly designed and accurately cut cabinet.

Wow, I thought glue was critical.  I agree, without glue, I can come back later and extend the partition all the way up to become 6 drawers, etc. ... I hope you're right and it doesn't fall apart!! [scared]

 

[Bugsysiegals]

What would be the recommended amount of Domino's per side and pocket hole screws when using both?  Would you stagger the pocket holes on the partition so they come from both sides?  Nobody will see the inside of the cabinet but I suspect I could use half the Domino's and perhaps the same number of pocket screws?

 

[Cheese]

Bugsy, so many questions...so little time.  [smile]

I always glue the Dominos into one side of the wood slab and then after the Dominos are fully set, attach the other half.

It makes the glue-up a lot less frenetic, what’s not to like about that?

If you’re into cranking out jobs then I understand. For the most of us though it’s just let’s get it right, touch it once and we’re golden.  [big grin]

 

[ChuckM]

What would be the recommended amount of Domino's per side and pocket hole screws when using both?  Would you stagger the pocket holes on the partition so they come from both sides?  Nobody will see the inside of the cabinet but I suspect I could use half the Domino's and perhaps the same number of pocket screws?

Ask why you need pocket screws first, and then you can determine where and how many you will need. If you use them for clamping purposes, then locate where clamps won't handle the assembly needs...though based on the scattered photos, I see none that clamps can't deal with.

For the record, I have never built any cabinets using dominoes and pocket holes screws together; either one of which alone is enough for joinery purposes. To pull joints in the middle where clamps can't reach, I use clamping cauls -- very easy to make with a handplane or sander.

As for the number of dominoes, I use a domino per every 10" to 12" for larger cases.

 

[Jiggy Joiner]

Personally I think the Domino was designed with various skill levels and requirements in mind.
The wider cut settings allow for an amount of user error, and some shuffling for alignment.
Ive notice some use the wider settings on all but the first and last Domino? By cutting and inserting the first and last Domino tight, you have have more or less removed any tolerance to shuffle, so you may as well cut all the mortises tight, or cut them all with tolerance. It makes little sense or point otherwise.

I always use the tight cut setting, mainly because of my mind set with joinery, and the way I was taught.
The loose width is probably fine for worksop furniture and boxes etc but, I would advise anybody that owns Domino machines to get into the habit of tight precision joints.
The Domino was designed with speed of strong joints in mind. The Dominos swell when absorbing glue all ways, so if you have a gap at the sides you’ve lost some side to side strength at that point.
If the mortises are marked out properly, and the machine is lined up properly when cutting, and the depth and plunge depth set correctly, unless the machine is faulty or out of calibration, tight, inline and precise joint can be achieved every single time. It really isn’t that difficult.
Some say on long runs using a lot of Dominos, it's difficult to get alignment, it really isn’t. If the cuts have been made inline with the marks, it’s perfect.
The less play in any joint, in any direction, the stronger that joint will be.

Pocket hole joints, I can see the convenience but, I’m not really a fan, whenever I see them, I think of cheap flat pack furniture from days gone by.
I accept that they are useful and popular though.

It’s all very much each to their own but a decent joint should be tight 

 

[junk731]

When dominos are used for alignment and where strength is not the main function its dependent on the flatness of material you are dealing with and the length of the joint. As an example on a 24" gable I would use 3 dominos along the bottom joint and 4 to 5 screws #8 x 1-3/4" on an unseen joint or 4 to 5 pockethole #8 x 1-1/4" pockethole screws. I might use 2 dominos to align the center divider and use #8 x 1-3/4" screwed up through the bottom. All through screwholes are predrilled with a tapered drill to stop splitting. Also no dominos on the decorative spreaders, just pockethole screws. Also I don't use a Kreg pockethole jig because of the way it pulls joints out of alignment. I use a Castle TSM21 pockethole machine because of the lesser angle it uses and no pulling out of alignment issues.

Anyone that believes pocketholes are only found in lesser furniture and cabinet builds hasn't really done their research or done any repairs on antique furniture. They have been used extensively for many years in many levels of build quality. In the past they were used in combination with dowels and glue. Typically its the glue joints that fails while the pockethole join remained intact. In the OP's build, the use of glue would make for a weak joint when using prefinished material because of adhesion problems, especially using PVA glues like the Titebond products mentioned.

 

[Jiggy Joiner]

When dominos are used for alignment and where strength is not the main function its dependent on the flatness of material you are dealing with and the length of the joint. As an example on a 24" gable I would use 3 dominos along the bottom joint and 4 to 5 screws #8 x 1-3/4" on an unseen joint or 4 to 5 pockethole #8 x 1-1/4" pockethole screws. I might use 2 dominos to align the center divider and use #8 x 1-3/4" screwed up through the bottom. All through screwholes are predrilled with a tapered drill to stop splitting. Also no dominos on the decorative spreaders, just pockethole screws. Also I don't use a Kreg pockethole jig because of the way it pulls joints out of alignment. I was a Castle TSM21 pockethole machine because of the lesser angle it uses.

Anyone that believes pocketholes are only found in lesser furniture and cabinet builds hasn't really done their research or done any repairs on antique furniture. They have been used extensively for many years in many levels of build quality. In the past they were used in combination with dowels and glue. Typically its the glue joints that fails while the pockethole join remained intact. In the OP's build, the use of glue would make for a weak joint when using prefinished material because of adhesion problems, especially using PVA glues like the Titebond products mentioned.

Being a qualified joiner for around 45 years, I am fully aware and familiar with many various types of joint and joining methods, that includes pocket holes, as I mentioned, they are useful and popular. Just not for me 

 

[Cheese]

Being a qualified joiner for around 45 years, I am fully aware and familiar with many various types of joint and joining methods, that includes pocket holes, as I mentioned, they are useful and popular. Just not for me 

I'm also not a big fan of using Kreg pocket holes. I find they become more of a hindrance than a help. For me they always pull the joint out of alignment rather than into alignment. I can't even remember the last time I used the Kreg unit...maybe 8-10 years ago?

As far as Domino spacing goes, for larger items I generally use a center-to-center distance of 9"-12". On shorter items they're placed closer together.

Like Jiggy, all Domino mortises I cut are on the narrow setting. If one's careful with the placement, alignment has never been an issue for me.

The only time I've ever used a wide setting is when joining pieces across the grain. In that instance, I'd use the narrow setting for every mortise on one board, and on the other board I'd use a narrow setting for the middle mortise while all the others would be set wider.