Shop wiring

[HometownFurnitureMore]

I have a problem with my shop and need some advice. I think I'm right in what I want to do, but my mother (she owns the building), thinks we need an expert to come in.

Anyway,

Circuit breaker has 20amp breakers in it, running 14 ga wire on them, to 15 amp outlets.

I know your not allowed to run 20 amp breakers on 14 ga wire. It needs to be at least 12 ga right?

The outlets should be 20amps as well right?

Also, I think I was given bad advice on how to run wire in my shop, I was told it was okay to run NM-b (romex) though pvc conduit. But what I see online it is illegal.

I saw where Thhn wire is required to be run in pvc.

Live in USA, and state wv, I want the shop to NEC code for safety reasons.

Any helpful info would be great, my total for fixing this is $600 for materials, but my mother thinks it would be better for a pro to fix it.

 

[tjbnwi]

Appears as if your only experience with electrical work is what you're finding on the internet. Might be a wise idea to go with moms suggestion.

Yes, 12 gauge wire.

The receptacles can be 15 amp in certain situations, 20's would be better.

NM can be run in conduit, in some situations it is required for protection.

THHN can be run in RNC, you must run a ground conductor.

WV or your AHJ may have amended the NEC.

Tom

 

[Holmz]

Codes vary by country, state, and also possibly county or city.

Being on a budget is difficult, and electricity can kill.

How many circuits and what is the length of the runs? (i.e how much wire?)

Hard to argue with one's mother, and hard to argue with the landlord.
Mothers are generally well grounded.

Your best bet for saving $ is getting the quote and seeing what aspects the electrician allow you to do... Like the time consuming effort like pulling cables and conduits. It totally depends on the 'sparkie'.

You probably have to listen Mom - so you're cutting losses at this point.

 

[HometownFurnitureMore]

Thanks for the advice.

42 and mom still rules the roost.

About 15 outlets, six on one breaker, seven on another one (with half of those on light switch for shop lights), one on 220 (table saw), and another one for dust extractor.

 

[HDClown]

NM is not allowed in conduit for a damp or wet location, but inside your shop, it would be fine.    There are also some very specific requirements for conduit into breaker boxes with NM cable and it's very difficult to meet all 8 (may be more) listed requirements.  Your local jurisdictions may have leniency on this stipulation, because the code requirements are rather ridiculous for this specific situation when you compare to them not be all needed if you use non-sheathed cable.

For your 14awg wire with a 20A breaker, the cheapest fix is to simply replace the 20A breaker with a 15A breaker and you meet code and are safe.  In a shop (heck, anywhere) more power availability is always better, so if you can replace the wire within reason with 12awg, then you can keep the 20A breaker and be at code.  You want to do something either way, as you have a fire hazard right now as you you could pull > 15A back to the 20A breaker over the 14awg wire, all before the 20A breaker trips, and that could lead to the wire overheating and catching fire.

15A outlets on 20A breakers is what is commonly done in residential applications unless you have a particular device that requires 20A, which you'll know by the plug.  Other than appliances, you generally don't see 20A devices in residential so they use the cheaper 15A outlets.  If you know you have nothing that has a 20A plug, then using 15A outlets will save you about $2/outlet.  You can always swap in a 20A outlet down the road if you need it.  Either way, you'll need to use all tamper-resistant (TR) outlets to meet code, but if you're not getting this inspected, I'd personally use non-TR outlets as TR outlets can get annoying.  TR outlets are safety requirements for little kids sticking things in outlet, and that's probably not a concern in your shop.  If a little kid is in there unsupervised, there is a lot more to be concerned with then an outlet.

 

[tjbnwi]

Tamper resistant receptacles are only required in dwellings. The shop is not a dwelling.

Your AHJ may require all of the 110/120 volt receptacles to be GFI protected.

Tom

 

[Holmz]

...
42 and mom still rules the roost.
...

We miss them when they are gone.

The outlets can all be reused, so you are down to GFIs and wire.

 

[HometownFurnitureMore]

Thank you all for the info.

One last question,

Is it okay to use 15 amp outlet with my dewalt 15 amp miter saw?

 

[tjbnwi]

Thank you all for the info.

One last question,

Is it okay to use 15 amp outlet with my dewalt 15 amp miter saw?

I know of no reason why this would not work.

Tom

 

[Greg M]

Overall you've gotten pretty good advice already.  One thing I'll add is to make sure that all of your electrical connections are tight.  Loose connections are a real fire hazard.

You don't need TR receptacles in a shop.

 

[Brice Burrell]

One quick question.  Are you sure the wire is 14 ga?  Did you check the wire or just see that it is white and assume it is 14 ga.  The reason I ask is that older wire is all white in color, not color coded for different gauge wire like it is now. 

 

[rizzoa13]

Honestly you should just take any circuit that has 14g wire and switch it over to a 15 amp breaker in the panel. The nm cable inside the conduit isn't a hazard it's just some silly code that it can't be in there. Think about it its protected inside the conduit and it isn't going to overheat so there aren't any negatives. If you find your tripping the 15 amp circuits then take the money you saved and run yourself a few new 20 amp circuits and receptacles and call it a day.

 

[Greg M]

I belive that the only restriction on installing romex in conduit is in wet locations.  In a shop there isn't any problem with it.

 

[Cheese]

One quick question.  Are you sure the wire is 14 ga?  Did you check the wire or just see that it is white and assume it is 14 ga.  The reason I ask is that older wire is all white in color, not color coded for different gauge wire like it is now. 

Brice brings up an excellent point, I've pulled a lot of white Romex that was 12 gauge. It's only been within the last 5-10 years that 12 gauge was changed to yellow. Read the sheath, it has all of the information you need. If that's not possible then measure the conductors (turn off the juice) 12 gauge should be .080" while 14 gauge should be .064"

 

[Rick Christopherson]

I belive that the only restriction on installing romex in conduit is in wet locations.  In a shop there isn't any problem with it.

What you said is correct, but it is a little misleading in the wording. The romex in the conduit isn't the issue. It's that romex cannot be used in ANY wet location, and the interior of conduit is considered a wet location if the conduit itself is located in a wet location. In other words, conduit does not make a wet location no longer wet.

 

[Greg M]

I belive that the only restriction on installing romex in conduit is in wet locations.  In a shop there isn't any problem with it.

What you said is correct, but it is a little misleading in the wording. The romex in the conduit isn't the issue. It's that romex cannot be used in ANY wet location, and the interior of conduit is considered a wet location if the conduit itself is located in a wet location. In other words, conduit does not make a wet location no longer wet.

And this is clearer?

For those that don't understand code book language (which many times is hard for people in the business) at your home or shop if the conduit goes outside the building then the portion of the conduit that's outside the building is considered to be in a wet location.  In my area inspectors don't consider crawl spaces, unfinished basements, or garages as wet locations for the purpose of running romex.  Although they do consider them wet locations for other things.  I know, it doesn't always make sense!  However, you can run romex into an outside electrical box if the romex enters the box from inside the building directly into the back of the box.

You can't use romex in the portion of the conduit that is outside.  So if your breaker panel is on the outside of the house and the conduit enters the sides or bottom of the panel then you've got to use wire that's approved for wet locations (like underground wire) from the panel to a junction box inside the house.  Then you can switch over to romex. 

BTW, inside your shop romex can be run on the surface of your walls.  It is not required to be in the wall or in conduit.

All of this has to be followed if you want it to pass inspection by your local inspectors although each inspector may inspect things differently.  Of coarse this non-sense wasn't an issue before 2011.

FYI, I know I'm saying the same thing but I wanted to try to explain it a little different for those that will read this in the future that find code language confusing.

 

[HometownFurnitureMore]

Thank you all for the info.

Wire is 14 ga, can see difference when was removing the outlets from the boxes and had the 12 ga wire run in the new wiring.

Am waiting till pro comes in, moms' garage, moms' rules. Even at 42 years old.

 

[haasjetik]

O

 

[sancho57]

To the OP,

I think you are doing the right thing getting a pro.

Can't fool with electricity.

Take it From a guy who house was in a fire.

 

[JimD]

OK but the idea of just changing the breaker seems pretty good.  I have a 20A circuit in my shop for tools but if it had already had a 15A circuit, I would have tried it before switching out the wire.  That messes up walls.  Not that hard otherwise.  I also put in 20A outlets but I guess I didn't have to.  I also have a few 15A on the lighting circuit in case the one 20A can't handle two tools that need to run at the same time.  Most would have more circuits.  I've been using most of the same tools for 20 years now on two circuits like this and it works for me. 

I had a problem once with a 15A circuit for tools but it was a circuit that did bathrooms two stories above the basement garage and the one garage outlet.  I think the run length was part of the issue.  Table saw would trip the GFCI two stories up.  Had to change that.  I ran a dedicated 20A and had no further issues.  The two shops after that I just started with a 20A for tools.