should "how to photograph your work" have its complete dedicated section?

[semenza]

Hi,

                  This would be a great addition to the forum. I would definitely like to have better looking photos for my portfolio , etc.  It would also be  good to have an advanced  and basic section.  I would like to have good pics, but I do not want to have to buy a bunch of stuff and become an amateur photographer to do it. 

Seth

 

[Ned]

...I would like to have good pics, but I do not want to have to buy a bunch of stuff...

Sorry, does not compute. 

A forum like Nick's proposing can save you from buying several bunches of stuff trying to find what works, though.

Ned

 

[Dan Clark]

...I would like to have good pics, but I do not want to have to buy a bunch of stuff...

Sorry, does not compute. 

A forum like Nick's proposing can save you from buying several bunches of stuff trying to find what works, though.

Ned

I agree with Ned, a forum section like this can save you money.  However photography is like wood working (and almost everything else) - it's easy to cut a board or click the camera button.  OH... So you want to make a NICE looking board or NICE looking pic?!?  Well, that's a bit tougher.

Take a look at this thread:http://festoolownersgroup.com/index.php?topic=3168.0.  It turns out that we have (at least) a couple of photo-pros in our midst.  Bob Swenson and johne are two such.  (Bob is a man of many hidden talents.)  They casually refer to noseam and perspective correction.  This is advanced level stuff.  That said...

It's not super-difficult to get good shots with some inexpensive equipment and and some knowledge.  Here are some random thoughts on the subject of photography and FOG...

First, it's photograph, video, drawings, and multi-media are very important to communication in FOG.  You could write reams of text and never pass knowledge as well as one of these images. 

Second, of all the different styles of photography (portraiture, landscape, macro, etc., etc.) I think the most important in FOG is "product photography".  For the most part, our photography is focused (pardon the pun) on photographing tools, accessories, jigs, and our work. 

I think that "Product Photography" can be broken down into two rough categories - short-range, wider shots and closeup to macro photography.  Short-range, wider shots include shots like these:

Two more:

While having their own challenges, these shots are pretty familiar to most people.  However, it looks like most of the pics we take are closeup to semi-macros like these:

A couple more:

IMO, closeup to macro shots are difficult and specialized.  At the same time, they share details that may be  almost impossible to explain. 

A separate section on photography is the right way to go.  Where in FOG?  I'm open, but I think the biggest need is product photography information. 

Here are a few links on product photography:http://www.tabletopstudio.com/documents/HowTo_page.htm  (Click on 3D object photography techniques, for example)http://www.kenrockwell.com/tech/product-photography.htmhttp://www.studiolighting.net/homemade-light-box-for-product-photography/

Regards,

Dan.

p.s., my primary photo equipment for taking my "product shots" is a Nikon D70, Nikon 18-70mm lens, Nikon SB800 flash (excellent flash), and a Gary Fong light diffuser:http://store.garyfonginc.com/diffusers.html.  I'd say that 80 percent of the reason that my images are decent is the SB800 flash and the Gary Fong light diffuser. 

 

[nickao]

...I would like to have good pics, but I do not want to have to buy a bunch of stuff...

I think I want a bunch of stuff!

I like woodworking and make money from it too. Taking good pictures seems like an extension of that. I would consider the equipment tools of the trade. A nicer portfolio could not hurt anyone.

To me getting pictures of a finished kitchen was always more difficult than getting a picture of one item. To get a wall of cabinets in a small room to look as good in a picture as they really do was always tough to impossible for me. I imagine I did not have the equipment and know how to get it done.

Look at these pics below of the last job I did. They are in a magazine article and were on the HGTV show "designers challenge". I did not take the pics, but they do not do the kitchen justice. When in the space you are blown away, in the pics it looks nice. And these are taken by the magazine/show photographer, I was not impressed and wish I took my own pics not relying on someone else to take pics of my job. Of course shrinking them down made them worse, but it is the angle and lighting of the shots I have a problem with.

The top is before, the bottom  is after. Then the top is before the bottom after for the pantry. How in the world in a narrow space like that can you get a pic of the wall of cabinets on the left. That wall is about 16 ft long but the entire space from left wall to right wall is about 8 ft or so if I remember correctly.

Information on how to shoot the left wall of cabinets dead on in the pantry picture on the bottom would of been great help for me. In the picture the photographer left out the two best parts of that run of cabinets! The built in refrigerator and Soda bar that is to the far left and not seen properly, they are cut off and it is impossible to tell their function and how they look.
The slab on top is awesome and in the picture you can not even tell the material, even in the original photograph.

I think if you make the stuff you will take better pictures than someone who did not. At least you will get the shots you feel are important as the builder.

Nickao

 

[Michael Kellough]

I don't know anyone who decides to take up photographic lighting as a hobby

Ned

I read somewhere (to paraphrase) that photography "novices worry about how sharp the lens is, amateurs worry about composition, and pros worry about light".

 

[colinw]

As johne demonstrated Photoshop can be a usefull tool to make average or bad Photos better with may options to adjust lighting and adjust well just about evrything, The only downside is the steep very steep learing curve.

Colin.

 

[poto]

Hey Nickao - you made cabinets on Designer's Challenge? How cool is that?  8) What was it like working on the show? Did you get a cranky designer? I've always wanted to compete on Iron Chef, myself. And don't tell me they don't have a clue what the secret ingredient is  ;D ;D ;D

 

[Dan Clark]

To get decent wide angle pics, you can 1) use a standard digicam and then splice them in Photoshop (or other editor) or 2) get a decent DSLR and use a wide-angle lens.  The first is less expensive, but somewhat difficult.  The second is my choice, but I could still use a better wide angle lens than I have.

Remember...  To you, your work is your work.  To others who can't see it first hand, your work is your pics!  I.e., good pics won't make bad work good, but bad pics can give people a bad impression of your good work. 

Regards,

Dan.

 

[Ned]

To get decent wide angle pics, you can 1) use a standard digicam and then splice them in Photoshop (or other editor) or 2) get a decent DSLR and use a wide-angle lens. 

There's a third way:  Many point'n'shoots (digicams) have adapter lenses available.  These aren't the same as the interchangeable lens on a DSLR--the lens that came on the digicam stays on it.  An adapter fits over it and puts another lens in front of it.  You can get the effect of a wide-angle lens that way.  Don't be surprised when the adapter/lens combo costs 2/3s of what the camera did.  Still cheaper than a DSLR.

[splicing photos in Photoshop] is less expensive...

Not if you have to buy Photoshop, it isn't...

I think we need to think about what Photoshop Elements can do, for this group.  It's what I'm using right now.

Ned

 

[nickao]

Hey Nickao - you made cabinets on Designer's Challenge? How cool is that?  8) What was it like working on the show? Did you get a cranky designer? I've always wanted to compete on Iron Chef, myself. And don't tell me they don't have a clue what the secret ingredient is  ;D ;D ;D

Actually I only made a few of the cabinets as most were ordered. I did make an entire room of cabinets for the same Client . They were the clients who painted the curly maple. Those were in another room and beyond the scope of the HGTV show., I also made the cabinets on another bathroom that is not seen.

The designers were designers I worked with before the show. So I was very used to them and always got a long. I actually ran the job as project manager, ordered the materials made sure the subs were up to snuff,etc. but I did personally make some of the cabinets, installed the crown molding and only the fun stuff I liked to do.

In the pictures you can not see the massive demo and plumbing required to make this happen. It was in an old building on the Chicago Lake front and it was a nightmare to push out the back wall in the kitchen. The floor in the original was the red brick. We had to jack hammer out the brick and 7 inches of different layers!

That was a 3200 Sq ft apartment and was huge. So three baths total were included and 3 bedrooms all not shown on the show. 3200 sq ft of Clear Walnut flooring that cost a whopping 32,000.00 looked great. but Walnut is awfully soft and their kid scratch up that floor with toys before the final pic!

I never even got credit on the show and I made it happen. I was on the show for about 30 seconds on the day I was doing demo and looked like crap. It's always the designers that get the credit and I think everyone here knows who really makes these jobs happen.

In the end the final product looked nothing like the original design because the designers did  not take into account how the structure was made, making what they wanted to do impossible.

After this job I resigned to my home shop because 1) I was aggravated with the experience and 2) little Dominick needed home care because of his bad kidneys and I do not like a nurse running through  my house everyday.

Nickao

 

[nickao]

To get decent wide angle pics, you can 1) use a standard digicam and then splice them in Photoshop (or other editor) or 2) get a decent DSLR and use a wide-angle lens. 

There's a third way:  Many point'n'shoots (digicams) have adapter lenses available.  These aren't the same as the interchangeable lens on a DSLR--the lens that came on the digicam stays on it.  An adapter fits over it and puts another lens in front of it.  You can get the effect of a wide-angle lens that way.  Don't be surprised when the adapter/lens combo costs 2/3s of what the camera did.  Still cheaper than a DSLR.

[splicing photos in Photoshop] is less expensive...

Not if you have to buy Photoshop, it isn't...

I think we need to think about what Photoshop Elements can do, for this group.  It's what I'm using right now.

Ned

Ned photo shop is great, but if you mess with it to much it makes the work look like clip art. I want to make the pics initially nice and not take them thinking I will use photoshop in the end.

Nothing against you personally, but too many so called pros I  have sent to take pictures for me messed them up using photo shop. The pictures looked sterile and just fake. I bet Bob and a bunch of others can spot the photo shop mistakes in a blink. If I can, they certainly can.

Maybe after I consider myself able to take good pictures I will get into photoshop.

To me that is a tool to use very carefully after someone develops a good eye in the first place. Which I do not have yet.

Nickao

 

[semenza]

Hi,

       There is no reason that a basic but good photo equipment set up combined with the basic knowledge of how to make the shot look good won't create very nice , and acceptable  photos.    I guess an analogy might be  for a sanding situation-  Buy the Rotex (excellent nearly all purpose sander) and such and such  spectrum of these eight abrasives.  Now here is how to use this stuff to get very good results.  Compared to- buy the ETS150, LS130, DX93, Rotex, RS2, 20 abrasives for each.  Now here is how to get the most from each one.
     I have no problem with the advanced,, but a good basic section to start people off on the right foot would be a great way to make it accessible to all. Then the specialists can be added in as needed or desired when some one wants to go to the next level or enhancement . Just like woodworking, and just like much of the advise this forum gives people starting out.

Seth

 

[Ned]

Agree with you Nick about the perils of Photoshop (or more generally, any "we'll just doctor it" solution).

You always need to do the best you can on the original shot.  Relying on Photoshop is like the framers expecting the trades that follow them to correct everything they got wrong.  Better to do it right from the beginning.

I submit that those pros you weren't happy with either weren't very good or they had an incompatible artistic vision*.  You just haven't found the right pro to work with.  Heck, maybe you can become that pro.

Ned

* Personally, I don't want a photographer I hire to have any pretense of an "artistic vision".  I want a competent tradesman.

 

[nickao]

Agree with you Nick about the perils of Photoshop (or more generally, any "we'll just doctor it" solution).

You always need to do the best you can on the original shot.  Relying on Photoshop is like the framers expecting the trades that follow them to correct everything they got wrong.  Better to do it right from the beginning.

I submit that those pros you weren't happy with either weren't very good or they had an incompatible artistic vision*.  You just haven't found the right pro to work with.  Heck, maybe you can become that pro.

Ned

* Personally, I don't want a photographer I hire to have any pretense of an "artistic vision".  I want a competent tradesman.

Thats it! I just want to take my own pics my way, but get a result that looks good to everyone, even a pro. I think I am about done purchasing Festools so what camera set up is good for me for about 1000.00 more or less.

What about this:

Nikon D 60

or this

Nikon D 200

Here is a D200 for 555.00 on eBay:

eBay used D200

Nickao

 

[colinw]

Fundamentally I will agree with you on the perils of Photoshop, but again it depends on the users ability, as I said earlier Photoshop has a steep steep learning curve and is never truly mastered because of the many many combinations of effects and adjustments, I know a few people who are graphic designers one being my sister and she never ceases to amaze me with her manipulation of digital media. I guess its just like woodworking keep doing it and you get better and better.

Colin
 

 

[Ned]

In response to Nick's what should I buy question:

We really need a Product Photography board on the forum, so that we can run separate threads on photo stuff, including the inevitable "Canon vs. Nikon:  I've never used your camera, but I'm sure mine is better" thread.  :

Ned

P.S.  Nick, it's possible that a good digicam can do what you want, at least for starters.  In fact, a thread entitled "Do I even need a DSLR?" would be a good one.

 

[nickao]

In response to Nick's what should I buy question:

We really need a Product Photography board on the forum, so that we can run separate threads on photo stuff, including the inevitable "Canon vs. Nikon:  I've never used your camera, but I'm sure mine is better" thread.  :

Ned

P.S.  Nick, it's possible that a good digicam can do what you want, at least for starters.  In fact, a thread entitled "Do I even need a DSLR?" would be a good one.

Well I have had some of the best rated digital. But the lighting has to be perfect and it is hit or miss. I am hooked and want a digital SLR of some kind for my next camera.

I would like  this to be a part of this forum, but if Mathew thinks it is not warranted or will take up to much bandwidth maybe someone can work with me to make a beginners forum dedicated  for woodworkers. Which to me is a last resort. I want to keep a narrow focus or the forum can get to to big and make it for me as a woodworker difficult to find the information I am interested in.

 

[Michael Kellough]

.....I have had some of the best rated digital. But the lighting has to be perfect and it is hit or miss. I am hooked and want a digital SLR of some kind for my next camera.

If the slippery slope of Festool isn't steep enough for you anymore then you'll enjoy getting into the DSLR format  , especially since you are particularly interested in interior photography which IMO is the most challenging of all.

A couple of the primary challenges,

1. You can't back up far enough to get everything in, so you get an expensive wide angle lens (the kit lens won't cut it). Even then you still want to get the camera farther back. Just getting your head out from behind the camera would help but how would you compose the shot without looking through the optical viewfinder? You start to wish you had your old DP&S camera with the tilting LCD and the wide angle adapter. (Why did I think I needed 10MP anyway since I don't print bigger than 8x10?, you think). Then you don't like the exaggerated perspective of the very wide lens and spend a lot of time and money finding , adapting, and buying a tilt shift lens. That helps a lot for the verticals but isn't as wide and you find you have to stitch pictures together anyway so you have to buy and learn Photoshop (or at least Elements)

2. The light is wrong and there isn't enough of it. Interiors look best when there is plenty of daylight filling the room but it is rarely evenly distributed. Everything is blown out by the windows and too dark on the far side of the room. If you are lucky you can bounce the light around (if you have an assistant to man the reflectors) but you'll usually need to supplement the sunlight with artificial light and you'll need to adjust the color of the supplemental light to match the ambient light. And then the sun will start going down and you have to supply more supplemental light and you have to readjust the color of your lights to match the "practical" lights (the one's the electrician installed in the house). If you're using hot lights you have to be careful not to blow a circuit but at least you don't have to compensate for reciprocity failure of the film when the exposures are very long. But wait, did you remember to put the camera in delayed release and mirror lockup so the slap won't shake the camera? If not you have to pull the tripod away from the wall and fish through the menus making all the settings and then put the tripod back and make a test exposure so you can confirm the composition (in addition to exposure and color balance). Don't you wish you ignored the snobby kid in the camera store and bought the Olympus E-3 with Live View and a tilting screen since you insisted on an DSLR, instead of buying the Canikon?   

You got yourself on a very slippery slope now.  : And it isn't just the money you have to spend, it's all the stuff you have to learn too. 

My suggestion is to do what Ned said, get a good DP&S and a wide angle adaptor. Make sure the camera has a tilting LCD and if possible a sync connection for flash, though these are getting to be like hen's teeth. Also get a few generic strobes and slave triggers and reflector/diffusers and lightweight stands and some color correction gels. And see how you like it. It's usually not the camera that is inadequate, it's the light. And the time. 

 

[Dan Clark]

Thats it! I just want to take my own pics my way, but get a result that looks good to everyone, even a pro. I think I am about done purchasing Festools so what camera set up is good for me for about 1000.00 more or less.

What about this:

Nikon D 60

or this

Nikon D 200

Here is a D200 for 555.00 on eBay:

eBay used D200

Nickao

Nick,

Don't talk Ned, he's a...  Canon user!!!  (Since I have a Nikon, I MUST but his chops!)  ;D 

Actually, for DSLRS, I think the Nikon and Canon are at the top of the heap now.  For under $1,000, I think the Nikon D80 with 18-55 VS Lens would be a great option.    Bang for the buck, I think this is an excellent value. 

Another option is the D80 + Nikon 18-70mm f/3.5-4.5G ED IF AF-S DX Nikkor Zoom Lens.  It does not have VR, but it's a very nice lens for the buck.  Total would be about $1060.

If this is your first DSLR, I'd stick with the D80.  I think the Nikon D300 is a much better camera than the D200, but it's $1,800 for the body only.  It's a brand new camera in the last few months.  Now if you want to get the one of the best cameras on the planet, go for the Nikon D3 FULL FRAME - $5,000 for the body only.  You can get usable pictures at ISO 25,800!

But back to Earth...  The D80 would be a great choice.  Later this weekend, I'll check out the lenses more.    Ned probably has some good info on the Canon camera.  Excellent cameras too.

One place where I think the Nikon camera have an edge is with the flash system.    I have the Nikon  SB800.  It is simply EXCELLENT.  It connects seamlessly with the camera.  I HIGHLY recommend that you budget for one in the near future.

Regards,

Dan.

 

[Matthew Schenker]

Everyone,
This is a really interesting discussion.  One of my goals is to get better at taking photos, and then working with those photos after they are shot.  I know a lot of people here have a high skill level in photography.  Let me think about the best way to create a separate section.  There are a couple of SMF tricks that I have not yet used, and it might be time to roll a couple of them out!  More on this a little later.
Matthew