Should I get a festool sander? Which one?

A

adrianm

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Nov 28, 2013
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I normally use planes and scrapers and only do a bit of sanding at finer grits (e.g. 150 or 180) on bare wood, and then I sand between finish coats of shellac or water based.  I often have to sand into corners or along small edges (like where the apron meets a leg and you have a small set back) when doing this finish sanding, which can be pretty annoying. 

I've done all hand sanding so far---I've never used any hand held powered sander of any sort---and was pondering whether some kind of powered sander would make my life easier.  Given what I wrote above, do you have a recommendation of a powered sander from Festool's line?  I was looking at the Rotex 90, though it seems like maybe it does things I don't need with it's "agressive" setting.  Any comments?  (At the moment I'm sanding baltic birch plywood that doesn't respond well to scrapers and is fairly rough so I have to start at 80 grit, which is what cause me to start thinking about powered sanding, but I wouldn't say this is typical of my work.) 

My second question is why should I pay the premium for the festool in this case?  What will the festool sander do that makes it stand out from the cheaper competition?  (And what about Ceros?)

 
RO 90 with Granat. Is it really that rough?  I would almost start with 120.

Wait, what type of area are you covering?
 
Ceros won't get into the corners or set backs well. RO 90 with the delta head will. It can do fine sanding in the fine mode. Or the DTS400. Sanding between coats of shellac or water based I am thing Granat. Rubin and or Brilliant for bare wood.

The dust collection is truly superior on the Festool sanders.

Seth
 
The RO90 was my first Festool and is still my favourite. I was ready to give up sanding and be a hand plane/scraper purist, but there will always a situation where sanding is a better choice. My logic was that if I bought the best sander I would hate sanding less and I was totally right.
The RO90 is the most versatile with the option to use the delta head, but if I was sanding a sheet of plywood I would go for one of the ETS150 sanders.
 
Sanding sheets of plywood is not what I normally do.  My last project was a coffee table.  I ended up having to do more hand sanding than I would have liked on this one (probably started at 120) on the tabletop because the surface was warped and had some tricky grain.  Of course, when finishing I had to sand the tabletop and the shelf underside it as well as the legs and aprons and drawers several times between finish coats.  This project has plywood only for the bottoms of the two large drawers, so not much. 

To the person who thought starting at 120 would work for the plywood--I wish.  After sanding with P80 the surface is noticeably smoother.  I almost wonder if I ought to start coarser, but I have nothing on hand coarser than P80. I was starting at P100 but decided it actually made sense to go down to P80.  I often use baltic birch for drawer bottoms, so I'll probably be sanding it again, but this current project is all plywood and has a bunch of baltic birch shelves, baltic birch dividers, and drawers made all of baltic birch, so there's a lot to do.  The large shelves are 3' x 2', though broken up by dados into smaller areas. There are dividers that are smaller, 2' x 8", 2' x 13".  And the drawers will have bottoms 20" x 24".  \

However, I don't want to buy a really expensive sander that's tuned to an outlier case for a type of work I rarely do.  I'm pretty sure that for just sanding this plywood a Ceros 6" or the ETS 150/5 festool  would be a better choice.  But if they can't get into corners or do edges that makes them unable to handle the most frustrating part of hand sanding.  As I was growing tired of sanding the baltic birch I was thinking about buying a sander and whether it would help, but as I thought about how might I really use a sander, and my normal work situations, I thought about how the most sanding I do is finish sanding between coats, and like I said a fine sanding after scraping.  Also it seems like the most frustrating part of hand sanding is corners.  I'm always struggling with areas where one parts meets another part to hand sand well, so if a powered sander really makes that easy that might also be a great boon.  Might even improve the quality of my finishing, as I can never get those areas as nice as the middles of regions.  Am I correct in assuming that the only disadvantage of sanding a large area with RO90 is that the small size disk means it'll take longer to do the job

I think my reasons for considering Festool are kind of like yours, GRegghead.  Do you enjoy sanding now?  How has the Festool affected your relationship with sanding?  I've always hated sanding....yet I can't seem to avoid it.  Can anybody comment on what makes the RO90 worth it's price tag as compared to a cheap non-Festool?

Is the dust collection as good as abranet?  Right now I usually sand using abranet when doing bare wood with a hand sanding block hooked up to a vac. The abranet seems to clog too fast with finish sending to be useful, though.  :(  I do finish sanding by hand with 3M gold paper and no dust collection.  I also usually rub out finishes with synthetic steel wool.

 
I have an ro90, an ets 125, and an ets 150/5.  The 150 is my favorite, but it sounds like for what you're doing the ro90 would suit you best.  The aggressive mode can be used with the lower grits and speed things up considerably, the delta head will get you into corners, and the fine finish mode can take care of the rest.  It sounds like you're not doing a ton of square footage, so the small size of the 90 shouldn't be too prohibitive, and what it lacks in size it more than makes up for in speed and power. 

The dust collection is unbelievable.  Literally.  If you get it in a package with a festool vac (go for the midi if portability is important), feel free to sand in your bedroom.  Hell, sand on your bed.  It's that good.

Friends if mine in other trades who can still appreciate good tools don't understand me spending that much on a sander.  Friends of mine who are carpenters, once they've seen it in action, do.  You won't regret it.
 
First, until you use a  sander WITH great dust extraction working to keep your dust and spent abrasive grit out of the wood pores or surface that you're working with, you don't know what you've been missing.
Totally different than handing sanding without DC attached. Suddenly, higher grits that you ruled out before can really work better for you since you're now removing that dusty slurry of wood and mixed grit levels out of the surface AS you sand. Then, whether you apply a clear film or oil finish, or even a stain, you get much better results since you aren't leaving 'trash' behind in the wood pores.
  As for size of sander and your needs, I have to agree with others that it still sounds like the RO90 or the DTS400 is the sander for you. The DTS has a larger pad size, so it will cover more surface area at a glance, but lacks the multiple mode of the RO90. I love my DTS400 for in-between sanding of finish coats, and I also use Abranet or Granat with the Festool Hand Sander Blocks that have DC collection ports built-in to use either of my CT-Dust Extractors with.
So, while you're looking at a power sander, also take a look at those Hand Sander Blocks along with the smaller diameter hose that Festool sells to go with them.
RO90, great sander, I love working with mine as it's three or 4 tools in one[ You can buff or wax a finish/polish with it as well in Rotex mode, since the Rotex mode isn't just for rough or agressive sanding. With all the different sanding pads and the dust extraction, this puts it in a class by itself when compared to the cheaper sanders as you posted about.
Although I own just about every Festool Sander offered here in the US, the RO90 is my only sander that I could STRIP a finish with, ROUGH sand if needed, FINISH sand after that, SAND into CORNERS and TIGHT spots with the Delta head/pad and ALSO have the EXTENDED Delta head that reaches further out than the stock Delta pad if you want it. AND then after all of that, You have the smaller 80mm polishing pads to work out a finish with if you need THAT!!
I just don't know what other sander of a small size pad that can compete with all those abilities and have great dust collection and speed control to go with it.
  [eek] [eek]
 
The RO90 is a brilliant little multi purpose sander, but the DTS400 could be all you need. If the only thing I was doing was finishing small projects and had to contend with corners, the DTS400 would be a serious consideration ... one set of abrasives and no pad changes, nice and light and super easy to use.

The real trouble with Festool is the fact that you end up in a "system"" and it's alway just one more tool (about thirty times over).

Variable suction DC is a must [smile]
 
I'm totally sold on good dust collection.  As I noted, I presently hand sand with abranet using a vacuum.  There is no dust.  I have only encountered one downside, which is that sometimes the dust accumulating on the surface reveals imperfections and without the dust I don't see them and can fail to sand them out.  

I wouldn't have thought that getting decent dust collection in a sander would be that hard.  Is it?  Does the typical cheap sander have mediocre dust collection, even when connected to a vacuum?  

I have read the festools are low vibration, which seems like a more difficult technical feat than collecting the dust.  

I didn't rule out higher grit with abranet.  I ruled out finish sanding.  Finishes seem to clog the abranet despite vacuum suction and it quits cutting.  The higher grits would work fine with bare wood. (But I have no desire to sand bare wood at P400.)  

I can see that the RO90 has the agressive mode.  Is there anything else I'd give up if I got the DTS400?  How would it work for polishing a finish, something I currently do by hand?  I see the RO90 has a special "polishing mode".  Does the DTS400 have the edge protection?  They don't seem to mention that for this item. 
 
adrianm said:
I'm totally sold on good dust collection.  As I noted, I presently hand sand with abranet using a vacuum.  There is no dust.  I have only encountered one downside, which is that sometimes the dust accumulating on the surface reveals imperfections and without the dust I don't see them and can fail to sand them out.  

I wouldn't have thought that getting decent dust collection in a sander would be that hard.  Is it?  Does the typical cheap sander have mediocre dust collection, even when connected to a vacuum?  

I have read the festools are low vibration, which seems like a more difficult technical feat than collecting the dust.  

I didn't rule out higher grit with abranet.  I ruled out finish sanding.  Finishes seem to clog the abranet despite vacuum suction and it quits cutting.  The higher grits would work fine with bare wood. (But I have no desire to sand bare wood at P400.)  

I can see that the RO90 has the agressive mode.  Is there anything else I'd give up if I got the DTS400?  How would it work for polishing a finish, something I currently do by hand?  I see the RO90 has a special "polishing mode".  Does the DTS400 have the edge protection?  They don't seem to mention that for this item. 
Click to expand...
  The Rotex sanders are available with edge protection rings. I have the set for my RO90, but rarely need them as I'm into corners with the Delta pad and not the round pad.
The DTS400 would have an advantage for sanding finishes in between coats, since it will cover more surface area, have a fine stroke/orbit to it and already have the delta shaped pad as standard.  If you use Granat, which  is available for the DTS400, you should be happy with the results it gives since it resists clogging and is often just quickly cleaned with a wipe of denatured alcohol on the sheet you're using.
 
adrianm said:
I think my reasons for considering Festool are kind of like yours, GRegghead.  Do you enjoy sanding now?  How has the Festool affected your relationship with sanding?  I've always hated sanding....yet I can't seem to avoid it.  Can anybody comment on what makes the RO90 worth it's price tag as compared to a cheap non-Festool?

Is the dust collection as good as abranet?  Right now I usually sand using abranet when doing bare wood with a hand sanding block hooked up to a vac. The abranet seems to clog too fast with finish sending to be useful, though.  :(  I do finish sanding by hand with 3M gold paper and no dust collection.  I also usually rub out finishes with synthetic steel wool.
Click to expand...

Yes, I enjoy sanding now. I look for excuses to sand things!
To justify the cost I convinced myself that I was getting 3 sanders (and a polisher) for the purchase price. I've been working with a lot of cedar for various outdoor projects this year and the RO90 was used for everything from stripping stain using the Rotex mode to fine finishing in ROS mode, to prepping a 100 square foot deck for staining. Hand planes were used to flatten things, but I've never had luck getting cedar smooth without sanding, especially when knots are involved. Even though the tool is pricey, it represents a good value.

As far as dust collection goes, it's almost 100% effective. Only when using something like 60 grit Granat in Rotex mode did some dust escape. I've sanded a drywall patch right above my dark hardwood floor and had no visible dust on the floor afterwards, very impressive! Just make sure to use a vacuum with variable suction, the RO90 can get a bit jumpy if the vacuum is too strong. I used mine with a Miele home vacuum before getting a Festool vac, both work great.

The only thing I regret is not getting the RO90 sooner!
 
I own and use several Festool sanders.  That said, if you can only buy one, go with the RO150 "Rotex".  Its does everything from aggressive removal of finishes to fine finish work.  I love it and it's my go to sander for just about everything.  Also get a sampler pack of sandpaper (if they still have them) and buy as many boxes of the various grits and types as you can afford.  I tend to use the Rubin and Brilliant the most.  You'll go through them quite quickly once you figure out which ones you use the most.  You'll also want to pair it with a tool-activated vacuum, of which Festool has several models.

adrianm said:
I normally use planes and scrapers and only do a bit of sanding at finer grits (e.g. 150 or 180) on bare wood, and then I sand between finish coats of shellac or water based.  I often have to sand into corners or along small edges (like where the apron meets a leg and you have a small set back) when doing this finish sanding, which can be pretty annoying.  

I've done all hand sanding so far---I've never used any hand held powered sander of any sort---and was pondering whether some kind of powered sander would make my life easier.  Given what I wrote above, do you have a recommendation of a powered sander from Festool's line?  I was looking at the Rotex 90, though it seems like maybe it does things I don't need with it's "agressive" setting.  Any comments?  (At the moment I'm sanding baltic birch plywood that doesn't respond well to scrapers and is fairly rough so I have to start at 80 grit, which is what cause me to start thinking about powered sanding, but I wouldn't say this is typical of my work.)  

My second question is why should I pay the premium for the festool in this case?  What will the festool sander do that makes it stand out from the cheaper competition?  (And what about Ceros?)
Click to expand...
 
RO 90 and the ETS 150/3 is the best combination for me making furniture.

Jack
 
adrianm said:
Does the typical cheap sander have mediocre dust collection, even when connected to a vacuum?  
Click to expand...

In my experience, no.  I have a couple other sanders that don't perform nearly as well, even hooked up to a shopvac.  I find there's hardly any dust coming out from around the pad with my Festool sanders, obviously being better directed into the suctions holes.  Not to mention the HEPA filtration of the Festool dust extractors.

As said by someone else, I used to HATE sanding (probably skimping a lot)... now I don't mind and do a more thorough job.
 
Re the trim rings: super useful against a wall.  The ro90 comes with a zero clearance trim ring and there are 3 others available in a set.  Speeds up sanding against a wall when not in a corner.
 
MahalaHomecraft:  What is the difference between the ring you get and the others sold separately?

Can the RO90 work for sanding between coats of finish?  Somebody suggested to me that it might be easy to sand through the finish.  But if I use P600 paper (Titan or Platin?) then that wouldn't be a problem, right? 

I'm also a little confused about the polishing function of the rotex.  I normally rub out finishes by rubbing along the grain with 0000 steel wool or with comparable synthetic pads.  It seems like a rotary action would not work as an alternative.  It would leave circular scratches.  This would only work if I polished up to a higher sheen.  Is that right?  Could I get the effect of rubbing with 0000 steel wool somehow using the rotex? 
 
The other rings have greater clearance.  So if you're sanding a stair tread for example, and there's a bead of caulk between it and the riser, with the proper ring you could set the ring against the riser and sand the tread without touching the caulk.  The three rings in the extra set offer three different clearances.  I haven't gotten them yet myself, but when I'm on a job where it'll help I will.  As far as sanding between coats, I have always used an ros for this with a high grit, 600 sounds about right.  And platin is the way you'd wanna go for sanding a finish on wood, Titan is more for sanding a finish on solid surfaces like in automotive work from what I understand.  I use strictly platin and Saphir papers except at very low grits for which I use granat; Saphir for bare wood, platin for finishes.  They also offer polishing pads up to I think 3000 grit.  Those might fall under the heading of vlies?  They're like 1/2" thick spongy pads that dont get gummed up as easily as the actual papers do.  I got one each in 500, 1000, and 3000 when I bought a used ets 125, so I'm not sure exactly what they're called but they work great.  As with anything, experiment a little and tweak your technique as necessary.  You sound like a competent guy so I'm sure with just a little work you'll be able to get the system to work for you.

As an aside, if you do go with the ro90 I highly recommend you break it in.  There's a lot of controversy over the efficacy of this technique, but I've done it myself and am fully convinced that it makes the sander much easier to use.
 
boy you guys're good...

Yup, RO90 or DTS400.  One difference between the two is sanding stroke, the DTS at 2mm versus the RO90's 3mm in fine sanding mode.  Stroke dictates rate of stock removal, and some would also say it affects swirl marks / quality of finish.

As noted above, Rubin 2 and Brilliant 2 are exceptional on bare wood, and Granat works wonders where the previous two may gum up.

Whole point of Festool?  Dust extraction, and that since all the tools work together as a system, over time as your collection grows you would see increased margin of return in cost and time savings. 

Another suggestion would be to head over to your local dealer and get some hands on time for feel.  Lower noise and vibration also translates to a much more pleasant user experience as well.

Hope this helps!
 
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