Should I get a festool sander? Which one?
- Thread starter adrianm
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Scott B. said:
When I don't sand between coats of shellac I get bad results---the finish doesn't look good. The instructions on the can for waterbase explicitly instruct me to sand between coats. So as far as I can tell I'm not sanding more than needed since I only sand once, with a single grit, after each coat.
Using the finest grit that does the job is best because I'm removing less of the finish that I labored to apply. So if P600 works then going down to P400 means I'll be removing more finish. Might mean I'd need to add another coat, especially if using a machine is more aggressive than hand sanding. In that case using P400 might be more like hand sanding at P220 or something in terms of amount removed.
[quote author=MahalaHomecraft]
If you're using festool paper you'll be using their grits, so if you're asking about using p400 then the regular 400 should be way finer than that. So either way that shouldn't create an issue, right?
[/quote]
Festool is European and so all their grits use the European system, so all their normal papers are "P" graded. They don't have "regular" American 400 grit. Now I did notice some things that were graded as S or A and I don't know what that means. I think the Vlies was S800 or A80 or something like that.
[quote author=leakyroof]
Hmm, I tend to sand between coats with 400 or 600 grit Abranet from Mirka, but this is by hand with the vacuum assisted hand sanding blocks that I mentioned. This is for varnish or water based finishes that I work with.
I would rather use my DTS400 with 400 grit Granat or my Ro90 or ETS150 with Platin if I was trying to use grits comparable to the Abranet AND a power sander instead of by hand. For tight corners, I would probably still touch up by hand and not bother with a Delta type sander if time wasn't a problem or I wasn't working on multiple pieces or a large surface.
Not sure if this helps you. [/quote]
When I tried abranet P400 and P600 on finishes they clogged rapidly. That was something of a disappointment, as I love the abranet and I've been hand sanding with a vac assisted block too.
So last night I sanding, using my friend's Bosch RO sander, the area where two boards meet at right angles. It was a pain because of how the sander jiggled around. But it was probably 20 times faster than doing it by hand because it's very hard to hand sand right up to another board. Hand sanding into tight corners is very difficult because you can't move the sand paper due to the boards at the edges, so it's very labor intensive. I also find it more tiring. I think as a result my sanding is of lower quality near edges and corners. I tend to give up sooner. I was imagining that going to power sanding might actually improve my results.
I thought that for finishing and finer work a shorter stroke was desired, which was why I imagined the 150/3 would serve my needs better than the 150/5. Is that not the case? If it means the sander is occasionally slower when I break out the 60 grit surely that's the tradeoff I choose to get better performance for finish sanding.
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adrianm said:
Adrian
It was this statement that made me think you are sanding too much. Just my opinion, but a 90:10 ratio of sanding to finishing is out of balance. I do think its possible that you are running at grits that are too high, which makes it take longer. Part of the deal is to learn how to "float sand" those in between sanding rounds with a sander that is designed to do that. Orbitals are the ones. DTS/RTS/ETS are built for it, and allow you to be at 180/220/320 on in between rounds very easily without removing too much.
I absolutely advocate in between coat sanding. But the purpose of it is just to scuff and dull the sheen, to create adhesion and smooth substrate for the next coat.
If you can get yourself doing it in the 180 - 220 (or 240) - 320 step range, you will find that you have abrasives on hand that are generally much more useful for many things.
Of course, products that you use for finishing come into play in building a 3 coat system. That is the biggest factor driving process.
I also think its important not to over analyze how Festool's grit nomenclature compares with others. Just run it at face value and see what you get.
Like I said, I am sure your results are very nice the way you are doing them. I just think their may be a more practical and efficient way to get to the result without spending 90% of your time sanding.
This is a very interesting discussion by the way.
Thanks
I still say that if your goal is to get into corners and difficult edges , then only the RO90 or DTS will do that for you. The DTS is the specialist for that job , and the RO90 will do it well but have more versatility. I think that you should try with 400 grit Granat and see what the results are. Glue together a 90 degree mock up for testing and practice. You may find that the with a power sander you get very different results with a particular grit than by hand. The ETS 150/3 is an awesome sander for finish work, but no round sander is going to get into the most problematic areas for you.
Seth
Seth
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SRSemenza said:
Seth
I have gone through so many phases of infatuation with each of the small orbitals: DTS and RTS 400s and ETS125. I have at different times declared each one to be the best one. Overall, I think the DTS is the most practical for the most high level solutions to the most tasks. I can do 85% of the DTS' job with an RTS, but that last 15% is the devil in the details. And I can do 99% of the ETS job with a DTS or RTS. Overall, DTS by a half a car length for the win. At least thats how I feel today.
Scott B. said:
It may be the case that I am over-estimating the ratio of sanding to finish application since I don't like the sanding part. [unsure]
My feeling is that changing grits would not have much of an effect on the amount of time. If I encounter a flaw in a finish coat that doesn't sand out right away I either hit it with a scraper or go to a coarser grit right away. I'm not dwelling on the surfaces, sanding and sanding and sanding. The large open spaces I think go pretty quickly. But it's all the small edges, little setbacks, and places where boards end that take all of the sanding time.
By "float" the sander you mean avoid applying pressure? It seems to me like this sort of technique might be harder to do with small edges, for example, where the sander isn't well supported. It might also be easy to sand through the finish on corners. It certainly makes sense what SRSemenza said that I might get different results with a particular grit when power sanding vs. hand sanding. But I would have expected that the difference is that power sanding would be more aggressive and that when power sanding, therefore, I might want a finer abrasive. Is this not the case?
Note that I am following grit recommendations from finishing experts like Bob Flexner. I didn't come up with these grit choices on my own. Also for the final rubbing out it's very clear that P400 is too coarse.
Does anybody have any thoughts on the RO90 vs the ETS 125 + DTS 400 combo? Price is about the same. The RO90 is heavier and maybe bulkier with its long handle. What does the ETS get for me other than access to finer grits of paper as compared to having the DTS alone? Does the random orbit of the ETS leave a better finish as compared to the non-random DTS? It's bigger so I assume it would be faster for large open areas.
Adrian is there a dealer near you? Or maybe a FOG member that could get together for some hands on try outs? I think getting some real hands on time would help a lot in your decision.
Seth
Seth
Kev
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Just because I haven't seen the point reinforced in this thread (I may have missed it) variable DC is critical for effective sanding control. Also, hooking up any vac to any sander will not always work in the manner you'd expect.
On Festool's DC v's others, I've have several high end Rupes sanders that seem to spray dust everywhere even with DC connected. Common garden brands such as Makita and Hitachi make a nasty mess ... the DC on the Fein multi is also a disaster when used as a sander.
Back on variable DC - you need to be able to control the amount of suction ... particularly when you're finish sanding. You'll be able to get you're sander to float effortlessly over the surface and get a brilliant finish by fine tuning the suction control.
On Festool's DC v's others, I've have several high end Rupes sanders that seem to spray dust everywhere even with DC connected. Common garden brands such as Makita and Hitachi make a nasty mess ... the DC on the Fein multi is also a disaster when used as a sander.
Back on variable DC - you need to be able to control the amount of suction ... particularly when you're finish sanding. You'll be able to get you're sander to float effortlessly over the surface and get a brilliant finish by fine tuning the suction control.
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Kev said:
Very well put. The interplay between DC rate, sander speed, and (especially) abrasive grit selection are the key to finding that sweet spot. All of them behave slightly differently, and even just one of them, the ets125 for example (but particularly the Rotexes) can quickly develop multiple personalities as you log time with them and change any of these 3 key criterion. And lets face it, no two finish sanding situations are exactly the same.
Circling back to Adrian, I think we have established that corner details are your production killer. The DTS is the solution. I promise. No more hand sanding. Things just became a whole bunch more efficient.
adrianm said:
I like to do final rubbing with Platin Abrasives S2000 Grit and little bit of mineral oil and mineral spirits. I picked this technique up from The Wood Whisperer, who I believe picked it up from William Ng. The result it a silky smooth surface!
I think if it's between the RO90 or ETS 125 + DTS 400, then the latter of the two wins hands down IMHO. However, I would encourage you take Seth's advice and try to get your hands on all the sanders. While you are there take a very hard look at the ETS 150 and consider the ETS 150 + DTS 400. This is what I use and I love it. I have heard on more than one occasion woodworkers who start out with an ETS 125, eventually add the ETS 150 and the ETS 125 sits in a corner.
Is there a difference in my ability to sand into corners where 2 boards meet with the ets 125 vs the dts 400 or the rotex ro90? The rotex has that guard thingie. Does it really help? It doesn't seem to exist for other sanders, which makes me wonder if it's really more for keeping control of the sander when you put it in rotary mode and you're working very aggressively.
In playing with the Bosch 5" RO, one problem I noted was that I sanded a board that was 2.5" long and 2 feet wide and I got fairly serious rounding over at the edges (making the fit into a dado seriously loose). I didn't have problems with rounding over edges when sanding large workpieces---in fact it seemed like the Bosch was doing less rounding than I was when I hand sanded. I'm wondering how much of a problem this rounding over of edges on a narrow piece is for the various festool sanders on the list (or the ets 150). Would a smaller sander like the dts 400 or the ro90 be preferred for sanding narrow work, or can the big sanders do it without rounding off the edges. (I'm assuming that the sander is used with appropriate skill and not tipped onto the edge.)
In playing with the Bosch 5" RO, one problem I noted was that I sanded a board that was 2.5" long and 2 feet wide and I got fairly serious rounding over at the edges (making the fit into a dado seriously loose). I didn't have problems with rounding over edges when sanding large workpieces---in fact it seemed like the Bosch was doing less rounding than I was when I hand sanded. I'm wondering how much of a problem this rounding over of edges on a narrow piece is for the various festool sanders on the list (or the ets 150). Would a smaller sander like the dts 400 or the ro90 be preferred for sanding narrow work, or can the big sanders do it without rounding off the edges. (I'm assuming that the sander is used with appropriate skill and not tipped onto the edge.)
If you are sanding something narrower than the sander pad , use the hard pad that is available for many of the Festool sanders. The added pad stiffness helps prevent the rounding. Along with using lower suction ,and a stiff backed abrasive , such as Rubin.
Seth
Seth
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[smile]I primarily make Maloof inspired chairs. After grinding out the seat I used to use my Festool 150 in the aggressive mode with 40 grit to take out the marks from grinding and then switch to 60 before using the inexpensive Makita random orbit sanders for the rest of the sanding. Random orbit sanding is OK for flat surfaces but none of the Festool sanders have the power needed for contour sanding. The small Makitas worked better and their softer pads were great for the seat contours.
Now I still use the 150 after grinding and a Ceros 5" with a 5 hole soft pad for everything else. It is great. Hal Taylor one of the best chair makers in the country uses the Ceros with a new German sand paper that is the best I have ever used for all of his sanding. One sheet of this Indra paper will outlast 3 to 4 sheets of any other paper. The Abranet disks work OK for sanding flat surfaces but are no good for extreme contour sanding. The edges break off and I find that the Velcro stops sticking to the disk after a short time. My chairs have very few flat surfaces. The Ceros is the best sander I have used and when I spend many hours sanding a chair or other projects and it's light weight is greatly
Walt Wogee
Now I still use the 150 after grinding and a Ceros 5" with a 5 hole soft pad for everything else. It is great. Hal Taylor one of the best chair makers in the country uses the Ceros with a new German sand paper that is the best I have ever used for all of his sanding. One sheet of this Indra paper will outlast 3 to 4 sheets of any other paper. The Abranet disks work OK for sanding flat surfaces but are no good for extreme contour sanding. The edges break off and I find that the Velcro stops sticking to the disk after a short time. My chairs have very few flat surfaces. The Ceros is the best sander I have used and when I spend many hours sanding a chair or other projects and it's light weight is greatly
Walt Wogee
WarrenWeldon
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The first thing I sanded when I got home with my RO90 was a big above the "head" vanity. With the supplied round pad and one sheet of abrasive the came with the tool ,I was able to sand both sides of the Red Oak door 24"x14" with one pad and the "up to the edge" performance was incredible. I used the delta head, again with the included pad on the raised panel. I later brought the LS30 last Thursday and used the 90deg. pad and flat pad on another raised panel door and again it did a great job. One thing I was most impressed by was the condition of the sand paper. It is so clean, no build up and it hardly looks used. Best of all my hands can feel my keys when I leave the shop !!
I use an ETS 150/3, and ETS 150/3, a 150 Rotex and the Festool sander with the rectangular base (forget the name).
I'm a furniture maker working in solid wood and veneered panels (both saw cut in the workshop and commercial knife cut).
Good as the Festool sanders are I found they were a lot better for my applications when fitted with hard pads. The harder the better. Hard pads stop the workpiece getting dubbed over on the edges and thin veneers wearing through at the edges. Some craftsmen I speak to say they prefer soft pads to "ride over" any dust specks trapped under the veneer, but I think the better option is to learn how to lay veneer properly in the first place and stick to hard pads!
I'm a furniture maker working in solid wood and veneered panels (both saw cut in the workshop and commercial knife cut).
Good as the Festool sanders are I found they were a lot better for my applications when fitted with hard pads. The harder the better. Hard pads stop the workpiece getting dubbed over on the edges and thin veneers wearing through at the edges. Some craftsmen I speak to say they prefer soft pads to "ride over" any dust specks trapped under the veneer, but I think the better option is to learn how to lay veneer properly in the first place and stick to hard pads!
