Should I upgrade or eliminate my tablesaw?

[Dave Ronyak]

Jesus,

I've arranged my CMT router table so that it's to the left of and at the same height as the MFT/3.  You and I are thinking along the same lines with a base that plugs into the MFT/3's holes.  I was thinking that pointing the fence to the left would let me use it on the router table, and turning it around to the right would point it towards the Festool guide rail.

Why turn the fence around?  Leave it facing the router table extension.  To the other end of the Incra lead screw machine, attach a shop-made fence or board to the other end so you can advance/retract it relative to your MFT Guide Rail.  This assumes your table top is long enough, and retains a focus on making narrow strips.  If you are going to be cross cutting longer pieces, you'll have to remove the Incra fence setup.

Dave R.

 

[Wonderwino]

I have an older 52" fence Jet 5hp cabinet saw that I am very happy with.  In 12 years, I had to have the motero rewound when it got shorted by dust, but that's about it.  I also built a large crosscut sled that makes the table saw faster, more efficient and safer than most other methods for repetitive small parts.  I use my TS75 to breakdown sheet goods now, so I would go with a smaller fence.  There are some tools that are just better at a job; a table saw has it's permanent place in my shop.

 

[nickao]

You know I think a better alternative if someone is thinking about getting rid of the table saw is a band saw.

To me if I could have only ONE power tool it would be the band saw.

Actually, with a band saw and TS55 I could see not having a table saw. The foot print is small on a band saw, you can rip, cut curves, Resaw and do anything a table saw could do other than sheet goods, which you would use the TS55 for anyway.

So consider a band saw if you want to dump the little table saw.

Comments?

 

[johnsonri]

Actually, with a band saw and TS55 I could see not having a table saw...

So consider a band saw if you want to dump the little table saw.

I think that you nailed it here. This may be the reason why I've never needed a TS. My BS gets a good work-out as a go to guy for several operations.

For those of you who have a TS, what are a few of the operations that you would opt to use the TS instead of a Festool system?

 

[sw1211]

For those of you who have a TS, what are a few of the operations that you would opt to use the TS instead of a Festool system?

Mainly ripping & dados

 

[alanz]

That's a good question about what's most common on table saws.

The table saw is a very flexible tool, being able to do many types of cuts.

I prefer to do dados, grooves, rabbets etc. a router.  I'm fortunate enough to have both a table mounted router and an OF1400 to use with the guide rail.  So, I don't use or need a table saw for those.

I like the idea of using the bandsaw more.  My saw is small, only 10",  and I'm just getting into bandsaw work.  With a 1/2" variable tooth resaw blade it made short work of resawing some 4" maple... I then brought the resawed pieces to the thickness planer.  These are both very new toys for me, and I enjoyed using them both.

With all of these thoughts running around, it's worth pointing out that I'm purely a hobbyist, so I'm not depending on efficiency (time is money) concerns that a pro would have to consider.

That said... I do like having and learning the various tools and toys.  Building out the shop is as much fun as building anything in the shop

 

[daves1996]

If space is a big concern but you still want a portable, check this out.

http://www.ridgid.com/Tools/TS2410LS-Table-Saw/EN/index.htm

I love mine.
Dave

 

[Notorious T.O.D.]

I think even if you are not a pro the time and money of woodworking is still an issue.  Most of us only have so much of each and must balance both time and money against the other needs, demands and wants that are competing for both our time and money.  The beauty of woodworking is that there are usually a half dozed viable ways to accomplish most woodworking tasks. Just sometimes certain tools or methods can make it more time efficient to do an operation.  That rarely means that it can only be done that one way. 

If we look at woodworking magazines like Better Homes & Garden Wood or Woodsmith, they usually take an approach to building a project that assumes the builder has some sort of table saw and a router and perhaps a router table.  When I as a more experienced woodworker with more equipment and method options I can often look at their approach and eliminate or combine a number of steps that they are using because they are constrained by 1. tools or 2. trying to keep the steps simple and easier for the new woodworker to follow.

So, there may not be a right or wrong answer to your question, just what you want to do, how you are comfortable doing it and what you want to do now and in the future.  I would say that you should always try to get the best tools you can afford.  Good tools will hold their value and do the work easier and provide you pride in ownership too.

Best,
Todd

 

[nickao]

I agree time is valuable even for a hobbyist, especially someone just getting into it. Many people get frustrated and want to see the end result as simply(not just faster) as they can and as you know this can still mean weeks of work.

If your funds permit I would get anything you can afford to make the work go faster, even if you are a hobbyist. There is only a finite amount of time and only so many projects you can do in a lifetime, so why not maximize it and add anohter 20 or 30 projects.

 

[Overtime]

Rey's work along with many others is both inspiring and proof that getting along without a tablesaw is less challenging than it seems.

  If you really want to go that route then dedicate your efforts in that direction with a good oversize mft type cutting table.

But for me I would upgrade the table saw period. The cost of a new Jet or Grizzly cabinet saw is just about on par with a 2 mft3 table set up with some clamps. Or one Walko workbench table  : ?? If you can score a nice used unisaw etc all the better. Any nice size, stable tablesaw.

I am learning new ways to use my mft and 55 all the time but I am not ready to loose the tablesaw anytime soon.

 

[sw1211]

John Lucas @ Woodshopdemos eliminated his TS and went to Festool based workshop.  You might check out his web site for some ideas regarding doing some of the procedures "typically" done with a TS.

 

[Jesse Cloud]

Amazing how often this comes up.  I am totally on the fence (pun intended) about losing the TS.  Its not really earning its keep, but I do have a few jigs that haven't been converted for Festool.

One thing I would suggest, though, is if you decide to upgrade look at Craigslist.  I see lots of Unisaws and other quality cabinet saws coming on the market for half price or less, way more bang for the buck than a new saw (though a riving knife would be nice).  It seems that with the economy heading south, lots of woodworkers are closing their shops, especially cabinet makers tied to new construction.  Its sad, but they often sell their well maintained tools for whatever they can get...

 

[nickao]

I also see guys that ask WAY to much for crap too, which is more the norm in my opinion.

 

[Toolpig]

Get a better tablesaw.

The RIDGID TS3650 is quite good and not too expensive.

JW

What have you folk done?

I've been enjoying using the TS55 with an MTF/3 table.

However, there are many operations that tend to lend themselves to a table saw.

I'm not happy with my current table saw (a portable Ryobi BTS21) and I am at a crossroad.  Do I invest in a much better table saw, or learn to do similar operations with the TS55/MFT combinations.

Recently I've been playing with making some small boxes, and working with small pieces is not the Festool strongpoint, though I've seen some examples that seem to be ok.   

I know some of you have given up your tablesaws entirely, and I'm wondering what your experience with this transition has been.  What kinds of adaptations and jigs have you made to make tasks previously done on the table saw easier/safer?

It would be great if I can eliminate a tablesaw, both from a footprint standpoint (I have a very small shop) and from the safety point of view.

Your thoughts are appreciated.

 

[square]

I'd say nix on the TS. I've never not been able to figure out how to get a TS55 to make a cut. I like having space in my shop where the TS was, I like the money I got when I sold it, and most of all, I REALLY like how much SAFER the TS55 is. OK, so you've got to exercise your mind a little sometimes to rig up the TS55 for small pieces, which generally means restricting them somehow in something the guiderail won't slip on. Isn't that what the scrap pile is for? 

Another approach to making the plunge saw work is often to change the cut sequence. I've certainly caught myself cutting plywood to width last when I should have cut it to width first and taken advantage of all the extra area to position the guide rail. D'oh! A related solution is sometimes to make a cut so the offcut is under the guiderail. You measure normally, rotate the workpiece 180 degrees and eyeball the guiderail one kerf width to the left of the marks.

Don't underestimate how Festool equipment encourages you to think about how to do things differently. There used to be something called Yankee ingenuity and for my money the core benefit of the Festool system is that it fosters that spirit.

Table saws are so last century.

 

[fshanno]

Alanz,

Sounds familiar.  Here's my story if you're interested.

I've got an old Sears table saw, the kind you see for sale on Craigs list for $75.  About a year and a half ago I started thinking it would be nice to get a new table saw to rebuild the pantry so I started looking.  But Rick at the woodworking place heads me off at the pass and I end up with a TS55 and an MFT 1080 and now I'm Joe woodworker and the fun begins.  The pantry gets build and everyone raves about it and not a single cut was made on a table saw but a lot of money was spent on other tools.  Like the OF1400 that came next.  I've got a perfectly good Craftsman router but no, it has to be Festool.  A CT33 (no a 22 or mini wouldn't do), a Leigh jig, a bench top planer, a band saw, an oscillating spindle sander, a router table/3hp PC motor/and Jessem lift, a floor mount drill press, about $300 worth of clamps, the $140 Kreg kit,  $300 worth of 80 year old Stanley bench planes and to beat all things, A DOMINO!.  Now I'm after an 8" jointer with a helical head.  What's up with all that?  Will I ever get that new table saw?  Man, I could have bought a SawStop cabinet saw by now!  5 horse!  With all the extras!

I still think I need a new table saw but every time I go to buy one I come home with something else.  I saw a live SawStop wiener demo at the Woodcraft before Christmas and even that didn't tip me.  What to do?  Here's what; I set about salvaging the old Sears special.  I rigged up an outfeed table, attached a flat piece of melamine to the fence, got one of those bags that go underneath to collect dust and it almost does, bought a couple of GRRippers to save my fingers, put on a Ridgid mobile base I had in a box in the attic, bought the best thin kerf ripping blade I could find, made a little crosscut sled, what else?  Oh, tuned it as best I could which was not too hard because blade alignment is done from above.  And I polished up the little ridges that pass for a top.  I've thought about an aftermarket fence but that's just too much.  This was a really cheap saw.  I paid $145 dollars for it brand new in 86.  I doesn't have a belt, it's direct drive like a job site saw but believe it or not it passes the nickel test.  Obviously, anything I cut with it that's going be exposed and stained has to be sanded or planed.  But it's a brave little machine.  It will produce rips that are often good enough right off the saw to be part of a panel.  It's a pretty fair little ripping station.  Not bad for something that was meant to cut plywood to make a homemade deer stand.  I'll probably get a cheap tenoning jig next and then maybe a miter gauge.  Here it is as it sits today.

[attachimg=1]

I really enjoy cutting on a table saw, even my pitiful little saw that almost could, and I want a nice new modest 3 horse cabinet saw with a riving knife.  But that purchase keeps getting bumped.  Now it's the jointer.  A table saw is practically worthless for jointing.  Jointing is what you do to a face you may have just cut on the table saw.  Yea I know, you can make a jig or you can make a sled.  But really, can you face joint a 6" wide board on a table saw?  And dang it, I'm tired of wood that isn't flat.

All this is simply to say that for me, since I have a very good track saw and a fair imitation of a table saw, a nice new cabinet saw is still not my highest priority.  I suppose I'll have one sooner or later but not before the jointer.  Does any of this sound like you at all? 

 

[nickao]

"Table saws are so last century".

I say a table saw is the heart of a shop. Heck where do you lay anything down. Not only is a table saw a great all use machine it has a huge table surface to double as a work table. Heck I have thrown sheets of ply on the table saw out feed and then used my TS 75.

I will never give up my table saw ever. Suggestion to do so is not a good idea, especially for a newbie. I could see using a table saw and no TS 75, but not the other way around.

I will keep both, they each do their own thing. If you want to mess around getting the TS 75 to do something a table saw can do easily you will make far less projects over the years from the wasted time.

Many say it is a space issue, well if you can lay a piece of plywood down to use the TS75 you can have a table saw in that same space.

Oh and I do not buy that everything must move to make way for the car, tell the wife she is parking outside and get to shoveling.   

And you can not compare a John Lucas to most of us. That's crazy I am sure he can also make great work with a butter knife and piece of scrap. I am not lumping myself in with him and saying I can get rid of a table saw. Maybe when you get the number of projects under your belt John has and his experience with jigs then  MAYBE you can get rid of a table saw. I am sure he used one for many, many years to start.

 

[kfitzsimons]

I have a Delta Unisaw and the TS55 / guide rails. I went through the same issue of whether to get rid of the table saw.  I'm keeping it.  Can't be beat for quick rips - no mft set up, no guide rail setting and issues with narrow cuts, etc.  What I would, however, recommend, is check out the web site Old Woodworking Machines.  www.owwm.com.  You will be inspired by the old "arn" as they call them, woodworking machines that they have rescued from the dead at garage sales and they've restored them to be beautiful, functional machines.  You can get old machines for a song and with some restoration and tlc, they're great machines.  I've bought two small 8" table saws just for the experience of restoring them.  I've also bought two 4" Delta / Rockwell / Homecraft jointers.  It's inexpensive, fun, and rewarding to get these cutting and jointing again.  And they work as good or better than the new ones.  Check out www.owwm.com.

 

[slb]

If you deal with sheet goods a lot, there is no doubt in my mind that the Festool TS55/75 and guide rails are better than the table saw.  As the Festool videos say, why wrestle 100 lbs through the saw when you can slide the saw instead?  In addition, I have the odd situation that I can't fit a whole sheet through the stairs to my shop :-\.  Previously, I would rough rip the sheets in the garage with an ordinary circular saw and then recut them in the shop with the table saw.  With the TS55, the first cuts are final cuts  ;D.

In addition, there are certain kinds of cuts that are dangerous to nearly impossible on the table saw but are easy with the TS and guide rails.  Long tapered rips are one example.  I've never liked doing long miter bevels on the table saw, regardless of right or left tilt.  The TS feels safer to me.

I don't own an MFT and I've used table saws for so long that my thought processes are probably pretty locked-in, but there are some other cuts that are so fast/easy/safe on the table saw that I can't imagine giving mine up.  This is especially true of multiple cuts that all need to be exactly the same.  On the table saw, you set a fence or stop once and then just handle each board once.  I do a lot of rips for rails and stiles, and you can't beat the table saw's "set the fence once and just shove the boards through".  With the TS you handle multiple things multiple times: put the next board on your table, put the guide rails on top of the board, make sure your jig has them aligned properly, pick up the saw, make the cut, remove the saw, remove the rails. If you are cutting narrow stock, add steps for handling the extra support pieces that keep the rail in place. Also, despite the various jigs and techniques discussed in a lot of places, I find that the TS feels clumsy and unsafe for cutting small pieces.  Finally, I greatly prefer the table saw with a dado blade for dados/rabbets/tenons.  Again, fewer steps to set up and use accurately than any router rig I ever tried.

So, for me the bottom line is that each has its place and I would not part with either.

By the way, I also have a 16 inch bandsaw.  It definitely has its place, especially for resawing, curves, and very thick stock, which I do a lot.  But I would not substitute it for the table saw either.  YMMV, but I've never seen a bandsaw the produced a cut as smooth as either a TS or a table saw, so you always have an extra step of cleaning up.  Plus, due to blade drift it is tedious to set up a band saw to do a smooth accurate rip cut.  The stock table on a bandsaw is small compared to a table saw, so you frequently need supports for long boards, adding another setup step.  The throat sets an absolute limit on the length you can cut.

 

[nickao]

Steve you need to get a better band saw or a new blade becasue it should be giving you edges darn near ready for glue up, just as good as a table saw.

Drift? Whats that? Any Band saw that can take a 1" or 1 1/4" blade there is NO drift. If there is drift on a big band saw like that get another band saw. As far as cleaning up lumber I can slice off a veneer as thin as a 1/64', no prep needed. I can rip hardwoods and glue them together ready for joining with my carbide blade if I choose to put it on.

The only thing a band saw does not work with well is plywood. I routinely run 8 foot to 10 foot pieces of lumber through my band saw with no issues. And where does one get hardwood wider than 16" to work on? Any capacity from the blade to fence that is greater than 12" is normally never used on a band saw.

For a newbie I truly believe a band saw should be their first saw unless they are working with sheet goods most of the time.

Of course a band saw, a table saw and TS75 would all be great to have. Actually two band saw are better than one. A smaller band saw like a 16" and a bigger band saw that takes the larger blades. Two band saws still barely take up the room of one table saw.