Should I upgrade or eliminate my tablesaw?

Question about table saws for those who have good ones.

Say you've got a really good cabinet saw and you're making a cut that will show, like the edge of an overlay door.  What kind of resurfacing, if any, is required on that edge before you can stain and varnish?

Right now I hand plane these edges because the swirls made by my TS55 or my contractor saw will show in the finish.  Would a high dollar table saw make a significant difference?

By the way, have you seen Festool's new little power planer?  Sweet.  And the PS-FA parallel guide will be available on March 1.  Fine, perfect, more tools to get in the way of the table saw.  Will it ever stop?

 
None. The edge will be perfect if the saw blade, fence and miter slot are aligned correctly.

It does not have to be a cabinet saw, I have seen portable table saws give edges good enough for what you suggest. It is the tuning up of the saw and its blade that matters.
 
nickao said:
None. The edge will be perfect if the saw blade, fence and miter slot are aligned correctly.

It does not have to be a cabinet saw, I have seen portable table saws give edges good enough for what you suggest. It is the tuning up of the saw and its blade that matters.

While I agree to this "technically" - that's to say if all things are perfect, including the alignment of the stars. The blade is relatively brand new and the alignment of the saw/fence is absolute perfect. Don't get me wrong It has happened occasionally.
  But not the norm. Not for me any how. I find that in every day use even most high quality tablesaws will leave traces of blade marks. Can be attributed to pausing or slight movement during cut etc.
    Now these marks can be very very slight indeed and are just fine for glue up or prime and paint directly.

But as a general rule for me I always plan to treat any exposed edges even before they are cut.

My saw ( cabinet saw ) is aligned, my blades are sharp and yet I still plan to go the extra step to finish all the edges, always. ( when it's stain grade and exposed )

  My TS 55 gives almost the same quality cut as my Sawstop.

When stain grade finish is required I use this Oscillating Edge Sander  Actually I use that thing all the time.

A flat stick with some sticky spray and sheet sandpaper to make a quick home made version works as well to dress up the edges - just takes seconds to clean up edges.

  I never expect a fresh cut to leave me with a finish ready surface. It always needs some further treatment. Plus final results make it worth the effort.

I have used many tablesaws and owned a few , big fat heavy powerful ones to little skinny wimpy plastic ones. Results may vary but expecting a stain grade ready finish off the cut is not something that I would bank on.
 
Overtime, I use the TS75 all the times and glue up the panels right from there.

Are you using a glue line rip blade for the table saw? I think maybe you are not using the right blade becasue a freud blade on my Rigid saw created cuts that I made paneled doors with many times. No jointing at all.

I also commonly make my inlays and edge join every single piece and the cuts come right off the miter saw, table saw or TS 75 and I very rarely treat the edges on a jointer. When I need a jointer it is a life saver though.

I do use that edge sanding trick you do too. I thought I was the only one that pulled that. That edge sander has saved me loads of time and mine does not even oscillate.

The fresh cutting being ready to glue up or show as an edge is the entire point, having to dress up every edge doubles or triple the time so I experiment. The table saw must be finely tuned with the right blade, but it is worth the effort.

 
Rutabagered,

Actually I have completed a few projects using the TS55 and MFT/3 instead of my tablesaw.

That's what actually prompted my question in the first place.
I can envision doing most (if not everything) with the Festool rig, but not without quite a bit of fussing.

There's an old adage:  "When you're a hammer, everything looks like a nail"

So, if you have only one kind of tool, you tend to think a certain way, and make do even if not optimal.

The jigs I've seen for exploiting the Festool TS55/MFT capabilities have been impressive.  However it's worth noting that some of these setups take up more room, and might very well cost more than a good tablesaw.

To my mind, there's no obvious answer to my original question, but the discussion about how Festool equipment is supplementing or supplanting other equipment is very valuable to me.

Thanks all for your input.
 
All through this forum are incredible jigs and ideas for the TS75, just fantastic. No question the guys here have done things I never would, but they are cool ideas none the less and definitley have helped me figure out some things.
 
Overtime said:
nickao said:
None. The edge will be perfect if the saw blade, fence and miter slot are aligned correctly.

It does not have to be a cabinet saw, I have seen portable table saws give edges good enough for what you suggest. It is the tuning up of the saw and its blade that matters.

While I agree to this "technically" - that's to say if all things are perfect, including the alignment of the stars. The blade is relatively brand new and the alignment of the saw/fence is absolute perfect. Don't get me wrong It has happened occasionally.
  But not the norm. Not for me any how. I find that in every day use even most high quality tablesaws will leave traces of blade marks. Can be attributed to pausing or slight movement during cut etc.
    Now these marks can be very very slight indeed and are just fine for glue up or prime and paint directly.

But as a general rule for me I always plan to treat any exposed edges even before they are cut.

My saw ( cabinet saw ) is aligned, my blades are sharp and yet I still plan to go the extra step to finish all the edges, always.

  My TS 55 gives almost the same quality cut as my Sawstop.

When stain grade finish is required I use this Oscillating Edge Sander  Actually I use that thing all the time.

A flat stick with some sticky spray and sheet sandpaper to make a quick home made version works as well to dress up the edges - just takes seconds to clean up edges.

  I never expect a fresh cut to leave me with a finish ready surface. It always needs some further treatment. Plus final results make it worth the effort.

I have used many tablesaws and owned a few , big fat heavy powerful ones to little skinny wimpy plastic ones. Results may vary but expecting a stain grade ready finish off the cut is not something that I would bank on.

You have a SawStop cabinet saw and still you resurface?  Most of the time?  So what's the point in me getting a better saw?  My rips on my old saw are true and straight just not pretty.  My edges are fine after I resurface them.  And stuff with a profile goes through the router or shaper after the table saw.  I have no problem making grooves, dados and rabbets with my router so that's not an issue for me.  And I do less of that now that I have a Domino.

Sounds like you're telling me that if I can rip effectively on my existing modest table saw and have a TS55 for sheet goods a better table saw is not a priority.

 
fshanno said:
Question about table saws for those who have good ones.

Say you've got a really good cabinet saw and you're making a cut that will show, like the edge of an overlay door.   What kind of resurfacing, if any, is required on that edge before you can stain and varnish?

Right now I hand plane these edges because the swirls made by my TS55 or my contractor saw will show in the finish.  Would a high dollar table saw make a significant difference?

Just to be clear,  my comments are mostly in response to those questions.

I take it you are using the hand plane instead of sand paper to clean up the swirl marks. Or are the swirl marks so bad you need the hand plane ?
Any how the marks I get never require a plane, just a swipe or three of sanpaper.

  I don't dress every cut from my tablesaw or TS 55 because they are nearly perfect. If I am going to profile the edge with a router bit or bearing bit no need to sand or other work.  If I'm going to glue it or if it is not visible then no need to resurface.

I resurface when the part or edge of a piece is visible exposed and stain grade.

Also the resurfacing I'm talking about is the equivilent of a couple of swipes of sand paper.
When you say another step ! Resurface ! again, more - we'er talkin very minimal work here. 

So I'm talking clear coats, stain, polish, poly etc.

Having a Sawstop or other quality tablesaw does not "eliminate" the need to dress a finished  edge if it will be visible and be furniture or stain grade. 
         There is no "Sham Wow" effect where all the blade marks are all gone and finished at 320 grit or better - ready for varnish.
Most of the time there will be slight marks that will show if you go straight to varnish.

  So I'm saying that if it is a "cut that will show" and it's going to be stain grade ( not painted over ) then I will sand it even if I cut it on my Sawstop or TS 55.

I'd say if you get good true cuts with what you have now then your good.

The cuts I get off my TS 55 are very very close to the quality of the Sawstop cuts.
The debates on the need of a tablesaw or cabinet saw when you can use a rail saw is a whole nuther deal  ;D

For comparison .. When I run a plank of maple or something through my planer, I don't expect it to be ready to stain at that point. I expect that I might need to sand the surface somewhat before I apply stain or varnish.  ..............  Wait I just changed those blades , smooth as can be  8)

When you find a tablesaw that cuts and finishes ready for stain grade in one step let me know. Not including euro sliders.  ;)
Cause then I could sell the osc edge sander and get some more festools.
 
fshanno said:
Alanz,

  I'll probably get a cheap tenoning jig next and then maybe a miter gauge.  Here it is as it sits today.

Why not make a Niki tenoning jig ?
http://www.ukworkshop.co.uk/forums/viewtopic.php?t=17204&highlight=
T026.jpg
 
Steve Baumgartner said:
...there are some other cuts that are so fast/easy/safe on the table saw that I can't imagine giving mine up.  This is especially true of multiple cuts that all need to be exactly the same.  On the table saw, you set a fence or stop once and then just handle each board once.  I do a lot of rips for rails and stiles, and you can't beat the table saw's "set the fence once and just shove the boards through".  With the TS you handle multiple things multiple times: put the next board on your table, put the guide rails on top of the board, make sure your jig has them aligned properly, pick up the saw, make the cut, remove the saw, remove the rails. If you are cutting narrow stock, add steps for handling the extra support pieces that keep the rail in place.

Hi, Steve.  I have a cheap bench-top TS, and agree with all you wrote there.

On Monday I'll start cutting six large drawers from Baltic birch ply, and I still don't know whether I'll use the table saw or MFT.  I hate the dust of the table saw, but it's so quick to set the fence and shove the pieces through.

With solid wood like rails and styles, I've taken to cutting them with the MFT on the right side of the guide rail (yes, you have to put scrap pieces under the rail and clamp the work piece) and then sending them on edge through the planer four at a time.  That's now my preferred solution to the "repeat narrow rip" dilemma.  Unfortunately, can't do that with ply drawer parts.

Regards,

John
 
I recently made a workbench and cabinets for my shop using the TS55 and guide rails.  I also have an MFT3 and a contractor's saw.  All of them had their place in the production.  While the TS55 was great for cutting down the sheet goods for the carcase, the table saw was particularly helpful with the repetitive cuts for the drawers.  I wouldn't want to be without either one.
 
There's been a lot said already, so I'll try to stick with what I think are points to ponder, rather than what I think you should do.

I have plenty of space in my current shop. And me and my shopmates have a lot of equipment. We have a Delta contractor saw, a 3hp sawstop, and an old Oliver sliding table saw. We also have 14" Powermatic band saw, an 18" Laguna BS, and a 36" Yates BS that we're still tuning up. And a TS 55, and a Kapex, some fes routers, etc. I've gotten glue-ready rips from my freud blades on the Sawstop, when the blades were clean. (using the rip blade, or the premier fusion high-ATB.)

I agree in theory that a good band saw is capable of being a good only saw. But there's a learning curve with regard to aligning the blade and fence, and I think that there are times when I really appreciate being able to adjust the Laguna's fence to account for drift. Drift happens. I think the Band saw is a much safer tool than a table saw. A friend of mine uses his Laguna 16" with the Laguna carbide-tipped rip blade, and he says he gets glassy-smooth cuts with it... so high quality ripping IS possible on a band saw.

I have no idea how advanced your skills are, since I'm a new guy in here. Or how experienced you are with a table saw. I read that 70% of new woodworker injuries occur on table saws, and that they're one of the big culprits when it comes to injuries in any shop. I think there are two factors involved. One, any store will sell a table saw to anyone. (I worked in woodworking retail for 3 years... it's true, if you have money, they'll sell you a saw.) But there's a learning curve, and there's a long safety lecture in any school or shop, that the customer won't receive from the store. Two, many people either learn on a portable unit, or learn from a contractor friend, who learned on a portable unit, and they never got the cabinet saw safety lecture. There are cuts that will jam up a portable that a bigger saw just won't put up with, and it'll throw the wood right back at you... or through you. And many of these guys are also a little less likely to use push sticks and other safety equipment. I almost had a stroke when I found out my aunt had been using her craftsman portable freehand, without a fence, until I remembered that you can do that sort of thing with little portable saws, since they don't have the oomph to make the serious nightmare scenarios happen. If you opt for a contractor or cabinet saw, the craigslist stuff is cheaper, but the riving knife and safety features on the sawstop cabinet or contractor saw, are worth having. I know they give me a lot of peace of mind. The big Oliver saw gives me the willies.

Even with the Sawstop around, and the Oliver, there are some things I much prefer using the TS55 to do... like breaking down plywood. Large quanitities of repeated rips, I prefer the table saw, but if you have a small shop, or a garage/basement shop, (which I used to) I think one major advantage the Festool has is not needing 8 feet front and back of the saw for infeed and outfeed. And if you buy a real table saw, eventually you're going to need some form of outfeed support. There's just something about having the ability to make bigger cuts that increases the odds that you'll use the saw to make them... hence my use of the word "need."

Second to that, in a small shop, I think the minimal floor space required for a band saw versus a contractor or cabinet saw with extensions, makes it more desirable for an "only saw," kind of setup. Having worked in a small basement, in a smallish shop (800 sq feet) and in a large shop (3500 sq feet), I think that if I had to go back to the basement now, I'd bring the Laguna, and sell the Sawstop and the contractor saw. I used to use the contractor saw in my basement... it was an ongoing struggle, even with a mobile base, to find a way to have that, and make the space usable. The Laguna's a great saw to begin with, but one of the virtues that I think contributes to it being a good "only saw-bandsaw" versus the powermatic 14, is the lower table height, and the bigger table. The 14" band saw market in general is made up of smaller saws that have higher tables for more detailed scroll type work. The bigger Laguna has a more comfortable height for ripping, and things like that. (So do other steel framed saws.) Given that, It's my tool of choice for breaking down rough lumber, too... I already know I'm going to have to joint and plane everything, but I can rip some bodiaciously twisted rough stock on that thing, that I'd have to run over the jointer before I could even think about bringing it to the Table saw. In a plywood/sheet good shop, this is obviously less of an issue.

One more thing that may or may not be relevant, but came up in my basement shop, is the idiot friend factor... "Oh, hey, I'll ask James, he does wood stuff." In general, I'd usually feel comfortable loaning out my DeWalt circ saw. (except to the guy who used one of my japanese saws to try to cut a box spring in half... but screw him anyway.) I'd stand over someone while they used my Festool... and no way in hell would I let them near the contractor saw if I knew they hadn't used one before. If I'd had my band saw, I might feel comfortable supervising someone.
 
Lots of good points there to think about and consider.  Thanks for sharing.

Reminds me of when I was building the entryway for my dad's house about 20 years ago.  I was working in a small basement shop and could only rip 8 or so feet with the table saw.  I had two pieces of 5/4 cherry 120" long that I needed to cut about 5/8" off of each edge.  So, I was thinking about how to do this since I couldn't use the Unisaw and I talked to my buddy. He had a covered porch next to his single car garage shop and suggested that we pull his little craftsman 9" direct drive saw out into and use it to make the rips.  So, it sounded good so I threw the boards in the truck and drive the couple miles over to his house.

By the time I got there he had the saw out in the porch with a brand new blade on it and was ready to cut wood and show me what this saw would do...of course knowing that I was used to my 3hp Unisaw.  So, he fires up the saw and prepares to play catcher while I feed the board through. Well, I start feeding and we get about 2" into the cut and the saw boggs down and stalls out.  We back the board out, fire it up again and get about another 1 or more into the board before it stalls.  So, I ask him again if this is the new blade or an old one...its a brand new rip blade.  We try this 3 or 4 more times and after about 6 tries have cut about 5-6 inches into the rip of 120 inches.  I just look at my buddy and tell him this is not going to work so I help him clean up and put the saw back into the shop.

Well, I headed home sort of laughing to myself that the poor little saw just had no balls at all....not even tiny chipmunk balls....my poor buddy.  After thinking about the need to cut off the 5/8 inch and looking at my shop I realized I could move my jointer slightly and just fit the board through it.  So in about 10 minutes and a few passes over the jointer I had removed the extra wood although I turned it to just dust and chips.  So, there is always a way to get it done...

Best,
Todd
 
Prior to purchasing my Festool saw, guide rail and vacuum, I was considering buying a good table saw.  My conclusion was that by the time I was done purchasing the necessary (or desireable) accessories I was going to be out about 1500 to 2000.  I spoke to a wide variety of people and ended up purchasing the Festool equipment.

My decision was based on the fact that a number of people said that the real strong point(s) of the table saw became apparent when having to cut 4 x 8 sheets of material.  I can not easily transport a 4 x 8 sheet of lumber and I certainly can not pick it up.  The store where I buy wood (and in particular sheet goods) has several very large table saws and, equally important, several very strong and skilled men who can move them around. 

I decided that the biggest piece I could fit in my car and handle was 2' x 4'  and that fell within the range that the Festool table could handle well.  I have not regretted my decision.  On several visits to the woodstore I have been reminded of the wisdom of my decision while watching their people manhandle big (heavy) sheet goods that I was purchasing.

The cutting costs are nominal compared with the cost of owning a pick up truck and/or a good table saw.

 
I used to have a POS $250 TS... I upgraded to a Forrest blade and stabilizer (It cost me almost as much as the TS :) )

When I did the upgrade, the performance was excellent (for the machine)

Later, I upgraded the table saw, but kept the blade & stabilizer. (So it was is a good investment)

The other area to look at is the fence...

Hope this helps!!

-jj

 
This is one of the most interesting discussion threads I've read and made more so by the fact that Festool doesn't offer a table saw which perhaps implies that none is needed. I think there have been a lot of great comments and I like the original questioner am at a similar crossroads - invest in a premium (contractor or) table saw or try to replicate that functionality with a combination of other tools.

I am fairly new to woodworking and have mostly portable power tools today. However, I do have access to a shop with the traditional table saw, band saw,  compound miter saw, lathe, etc. This means I often ask myself whether I can do something at home or whether I need to go into the shop to do it. When I read project plans or watch videos (e.g. New Yankee Workshop) I ask myself whether I could perform the same task with different tools from those described in an accurate and efficient manner. Many of you here doubtless have more experience than I do, so I wonder if you will agree or disagree with my observations and I hope to hear from you.

Most of the dados, tenons and other joinery work that is done on a table saw could be done with a Festool plunge saw or a router (which has some unique capabilities). Similarly, all of the ripping could be done with a Festool plunge saw (for unwieldy or wide stock) and a band saw (for narrow or thick stock). As for cross cutting, anything that would be done on a table saw can be accomplished with a Festool  plunge saw or (perhaps more rapidly, with) a compound miter saw. Have I left out anything normally done on a table saw? Am I technically right but practically wrong for reasons of inefficiency or inaccuracy?

Even if you agree with me, you might say that all I've proven is that one tool - the table saw - can be replaced with about four other tools. Is that valuable?  I think yes, if only because each of those tools can do certain things that cannot be done accurately and efficiently on anything else. For example, what other tool can cut thin, wide strips of veneer besides a band saw? I'm increasingly uncertain if a table saw is needed at all assuming you have a band saw, a Festool plunge saw and a flexible router setup. Certainly eliminating a table saw will save you a lot of shop space and money - given the $3000 cost of a premium table saw - which could be used to buy a Festool plunge saw, a Kapex (if you were so inclined) and one or two routers, plus some rail guides and accessories. You're on your own for the band saw!
 
garnet_steen said:
This is one of the most interesting discussion threads I've read and made more so by the fact that Festool doesn't offer a table saw which perhaps implies that none is needed.

Oh but Festool does offer a table saw, a couple of them even. There are the Precisio 50 and Precisio 70 models which are real and mobile table saws, and then there's the CMS system in which you can clamp a TS55 or TS75 plunge saw.

I also wouldn't like to draw the conclusion that Festool provides the wood worker with everything that is needed and that if Festool doesn't offer it, it isn't needed. Pretty strange conclusion if you ask me.  [eek]
 
You're right of course, on both counts. They don't offer their table saw in the United States (which I find strange). As for the implication that a table saw is not needed because they don't offer it, I guess I was basing that assertion on their videos which emphasize how the plunge saw performs many of the traditional table saw functions.
 
I've done a lot of renovation on my house over the last 18 months and have not yet felt the need to get a table saw.
One tool that I use on almost every project is the domino which seems to take care of a lot of joinery for me.  The router takes care of the rest.  There are times when I could definitely use a band saw, which I think would complement any Festool setup.

Martin.
 
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