Simple alignment technique for the Domino - from End User Group Training

[sw1211]

If I had to place a wager I'd say the majority of the forum members could figure out 85-90% of the functionality of their tools without a manual.  Personally I only pick up the manual when I can't figure something out.  By the time I bought my Domino I thought I had used for years, after reading all the good info here.  I'd also go out on a limb and say any tips we aren't aware of would fall in the nice to have category but everyone has fopund ways to make things work in some other way.  Guess my point is we need to call off the lynch mob, everyone admits the manuals are a C to C-, Festool is aware of this and in time they'll probably improve.  In the meantime if you can't figure something out post your problem here and you'll get plenty of help.  So who's going to post the next tip from the IN trip? Don't be post shy even this post went down the path that I'm sure was never intended.

 

[EcoFurniture]

The tools are manufactured in Germany, by a German company, which has spent decades supplying tools to Germany & Europe.  Then they decided to expand beyond Europe.

A comment made by Christian in an unrelated conversation might allow some insight for why the manuals are not what we here expect.  I believe we were going over the class at the end of the day and a comment was made about spending too much time on the sanders.  Basically that sanders didn't need that much time because it was just sanding after all.  Christian, who spent  considerable time watching and listening during the sessions, then told us that in Germany finishers spent three years learning sanding.  Might that be why they don't make the manuals the way we want?  They don't need to because the users are expected to know how to use the tools.

Hmmmm.....

Peter

Peter,
Thanks for mentioning this.  I forgot about Christian's comments regarding sanding.  I recall that he also mentioned something along the lines of a 6 year apprenticeship for European cabinetmakers prior to earning a certificate which authorizes the establishment of a business.  Therefore, by the time you are able to purchase your own tools, it is expected that you already know how to use them.  So cultural differences play a role.

FOG Members,
Festool USA is well aware of the concerns with the manuals and is adopting multiple solutions to address them.  In the meantime, contact them if you have questions.  This was mentioned again and again during our visit.  They are accessible and always willing to assist with any issues.  Take advantage of it.  The toll free number is on every power tool!

Joe

Ok, this is a difficult one... as i always have to be careful not to offend anyone : So please bear with me!

Christian is correct. Our woodworking/cabinet making trade school training takes 3 full years at least. During this time, you have to go to school one day a week and the rest of the week you work full time at a woodworking company. As a wage, you are getting payed between $300 and $700 a month... The work you do at the shop is interesting to say the least. Actually, you are the cheap guy, that means: You carry the tools up to the 5th floor, you have to do the clean up, you have to get your bosses lunch (!), you just do what ever they tell you--it's all part of the learning! Eventually you move up to do the sanding--lots of it! You do some finishing, maybe but only maybe they let you work on some of the powertools. Your main job is helping your coworkers on their projects, like holding pieces while the clamps are being put on etc. Back then I hated it... But I'm now glad that I went through that whole process as it showed me step by step and over and over again on how to build furniture.
Anyhow, after those three years, you have to look for place to work. Highly recommended to be somewhere else, otherwise you will just stay in the same position as the cheap helper.
To open you own business to first have to work in the field for (I believe) 5 years. After that you can apply to go to school again... This time for 3 years in the evenings to become a master cabinetmaker/woodworker. By that time, you will have to know everything and I mean everything! Every type of joinery, every type of wood and finish, the bookkeeping, the legal side just everything.

I'm just a journeyman with about 20 years under my belt.... I'm running my own business... I don't know if it's just me, but most of my festools I got out of the box and started working with, I never look at instructions ;D :

So, I'm totally understanding where Festool is coming from and as we all know, are aware of the cultural differences. I'm sure, they are working on it but as everything in business, it takes time.

Anyhow, most of the guys here on this forum are hobby woodworkers and please be patient with yourself. You can't learn this trade/hobby overnight it will take a while. You know, these tools are amazing and the best thing on the market, but you still need practice to get the most out of them.
Don't give up! Enjoy the ride.... Or as we say in Germany: Lehrjahre sind keine Herren Jahre!

Cheers,
Andreas

 

[ForumMFG]

Eco,

I finally believe everything my German co-worker told me!  I have a German guy who works in my shop.  He is by far the most talented person we have.  Everyone in the shop looks up to him because of his knowledge and talent.  It might be hard to understand him but he sure knows his stuff.  I look up to him myself and try to suck as much information out of him as possible.  He truly is one of a kind.  Anyway, he told me just the same story you did Eco about the programs, schools, how long it takes and all that fun stuff.  I didn't believe him but I always thought to myself if he is serious then this is why he is so talented.  He told me that people who go to school for woodworking spend the first 3 years sharpening..  I believe him.  Does that sound right Eco?  It makes sense, it takes a while to master something.  There is probly different schools and such that do things differently. 

I like how they do this in Europe.

 

[Neill]

Andreas,

Thanks for the interesting and enlightening story.  Kind of reminds me of the stories my Stepfather used to tell me about growing up on a farm in Hungary before World War II.  Sounds cliche but he would walk long distances to school even in the winter.  He had to get up early to do his chores and after doing his homework at night, more chores.  I though it was a bunch of hooey but found out later it was not.

As you eluded to, what doesn't kill you makes you stronger.

Neill

 

[EcoFurniture]

Thanks!

But please excuse my English grammar.... That, I'm still learning ;D

 

[AlexThePalex]

The manual of a tool is made during the development process of a tool and is done in Festool's case, in Germany. They first make one in German and then translate that in other languages. Now, the cost of a good translation isn't really worth mentioning. It's less then ONE single average Festool machine.

Alex,
I would be very surprised if Festool operated this way.  It would be highly unusual and impractical to begin creating manuals during the product design and development phase.  In almost all cases, product manuals are only created after the final design phase is completed, just prior to product release.  After all of the design phases (planning, inputs, outputs, verification, validation, and all of the various reviews) are complete, the project manager(s), usually in conjunction with the cognizant engineers, assist technical writers in creating user documentation.

Joe

Joe, be ready to be surprised then since I think our difference only lies in the mere fact of what you call the development stage exactly.

From the viewpoint of the engineer the development stage might only comprise the machine itself, but from the higher level of the company, the level where I'm talking about, the development process entrails the development of the entire product.

The entire product includes manuals and even systainer inserts and stickers. 

 

[EcoFurniture]

Eco,

I finally believe everything my German co-worker told me!  I have a German guy who works in my shop.  He is by far the most talented person we have.  Everyone in the shop looks up to him because of his knowledge and talent.  It might be hard to understand him but he sure knows his stuff.  I look up to him myself and try to suck as much information out of him as possible.  He truly is one of a kind.  Anyway, he told me just the same story you did Eco about the programs, schools, how long it takes and all that fun stuff.  I didn't believe him but I always thought to myself if he is serious then this is why he is so talented.  He told me that people who go to school for woodworking spend the first 3 years sharpening..  I believe him.  Does that sound right Eco?  It makes sense, it takes a while to master something.  There is probly different schools and such that do things differently. 

I like how they do this in Europe.

Sharpening is one of your duties. I actually learned how to sharpen bandsaw blades, hand saws and such...doesn't mean I was good at it  ;D  But you also get send out to get the airbubble fixed in the level : in other words they play a lot of practical jokes on you  ;D

 

[RONWEN]

Since aligning the Domino for cutting a mortise is so basic to it's operation it's surprising that the milled tabs wouldn't have been mentioned in the manual along with the sight gage and pins or paddles.

 

[Wonderwino]

To open you own business to first have to work in the field for (I believe) 5 years. After that you can apply to go to school again... This time for 3 years in the evenings to become a master cabinetmaker/woodworker. By that time, you will have to know everything and I mean everything! Every type of joinery, every type of wood and finish, the bookkeeping, the legal side just everything.

I'm just a journeyman with about 20 years under my belt.... I'm running my own business... I don't know if it's just me, but most of my festools I got out of the box and started working with, I never look at instructions ;D :

Cheers,
Andreas

Perhaps we are fortunate in the US that we don't have to devote that much time to training before opening a business.  Sam Maloof was self-trained in his art and we are fortunate to have had him as a furniture maker.  On the other end of the spectrum, I have seen guys go buy a hammer and a skilsaw and suddenly they are carpenters!  The customer is not always well-served by them.

I think if Festool would take the course of continuing to support the supplemental manuals, this would be a great help to those of us not fortunate enough to have had professional training.  Many technical writers are free-lance, doing contract jobs, so they would not have to be full time employees.  Perhaps including some short instructional videos with sysnotes; not just music, but explanations in native language, would be a help.  After just happening upon Festool headquarters and spending an hour in the shop with Brian, I bought tools he demonstrated to me and have others on my short list.  

Understanding the tools is what sells them.

 

[wnagle]

Wonderwino,

After my trip to Festool, I no longer have a short list...pretty much a long list now.  I hear people complain about Festool being slow to release a new product when one is on the horizon.  Me?  I can't keep up!

After our classes, I added the following to my list of must haves:

Parallel Guides
T-15
LS-130
Gecco clamp
OF1010
OF2200
RS2
MFT3 (another one)
Horizontal Rail clamp
New router table when its available
New CT when available
New vacuum clamping system when available

Just off the top of my head.......

 

[EcoFurniture]

Watch out with the Gecco.... It doesn't hold on veneer/unfinished wood!

 

[Wonderwino]

Wayne,

I have a long list, too!  ;D  I have just prioritized a half dozen items to the top of the list.  I bought the parallel guide set which I really like and ordered the 4mm domino items (the cutter is backordered).  I'm just going to have to get the T15+3, a couple of MFTs & etc.  If I had spent two days there, I would probably have to go for a second mortgage.  :

-Alex

 

[RONWEN]

What are the Gecco clamp & horizontal rail clamp like?  I took a quick look on the website & didn't see them.

Also, what is the new CT like?  Bigger than a CT33?

Wonderwino,

After my trip to Festool, I no longer have a short list...pretty much a long list now.  I hear people complain about Festool being slow to release a new product when one is on the horizon.  Me?  I can't keep up!

After our classes, I added the following to my list of must haves:

Parallel Guides
T-15
LS-130
Gecco clamp
OF1010
OF2200
RS2
MFT3 (another one)
Horizontal Rail clamp
New router table when its available
New CT when available
New vacuum clamping system when available

Just off the top of my head.......

 

[wnagle]

Ron I called them by the wrong names, here they are.

http://www.festoolusa.com/products/guide-rails/gecko/gecko-suction-handle-492617.html

http://www.festoolusa.com/products/guide-rails/clamps/fsrapid-clamp-and-fixed-jaws-489790.html

I don't remember the size of the bag on the new CT, but it had some new features, i think a self cleaning filter system and a second plug option.  Mostly, I need two more CT's eventually and figure I'd buy the new ones when they come out.  I don't really remember all the new features.  I just remembered I wanted one, they weren't available and I was broke any way, so I just added it to the list.

 

[RONWEN]

Thanks Wayne.
I wouldn't have much purpose for the Gecko clamp but the rapid clamp looks interesting.  Is it to be used on the MFT rail grooves for clamping work pieces vertically?

Ron I called them by the wrong names, here they are.

http://www.festoolusa.com/products/guide-rails/gecko/gecko-suction-handle-492617.html

http://www.festoolusa.com/products/guide-rails/clamps/fsrapid-clamp-and-fixed-jaws-489790.html

I don't remember the size of the bag on the new CT, but it had some new features, i think a self cleaning filter system and a second plug option.  Mostly, I need two more CT's eventually and figure I'd buy the new ones when they come out.  I don't really remember all the new features.  I just remembered I wanted one, they weren't available and I was broke any way, so I just added it to the list.

 

[tbellemare]

The Rapid Clamps work in the same situations as the screw clamps. To clamp them, you just squeeze.

Tom

 

[wnagle]

Ron,

I thought that too about the Gecko until I saw it and played with it.  I think it would be nice in situations where I don't clamp at all...would add some security easier than clamping both ends of the rail the standard way.  They also work horizontally or any other odd application where traditional clamping might be difficult.  Not too expensive and just more clamping options for me.

 

[RONWEN]

They look handy for when I hold parts vertically on the front of the MFT while using the Domino.  I now use the other Festool clamps (not the screw clamps) but I have to slide them out of the way while changing pieces.
Do the rapid clamps have fair holding power?  Can they also be used in the MFT top holes?

I also have those other Festool clamps that have the slides & lever to tighten that I use while sanding.

The Rapid Clamps work in the same situations as the screw clamps. To clamp them, you just squeeze.

Tom

 

[Brice Burrell]

They look handy for when I hold parts vertically on the front of the MFT while using the Domino.  I now use the other Festool clamps (not the screw clamps) but I have to slide them out of the way while changing pieces.
Do the rapid clamps have fair holding power?  Can they also be used in the MFT top holes?

I also have those other Festool clamps that have the slides & lever to tighten that I use while sanding.

The Rapid Clamps work in the same situations as the screw clamps. To clamp them, you just squeeze.

Tom

Ron, the rapid clamps (you'll often see them referred to as quick clamps here) are my go to clamps. They fit in the holes on the MFT and the clamping pressure is sufficient for almost any use. Well worth picking up a couple.   

 

[Dave Ronyak]

Thanks for the great tip and your excellent photo essay presentation!

Re the manuals, I agree with those who stated that you should always read (or at least) browse through the owner's manual.  And in the case of Festool products, always look for the possibility of expanded user manuals such as those created by Jerry Work and Rick Christopherson, and other members of FOG.  These manuals provide a lot more detail than Festool's factory manuals.

Others' comments have pointed out the huge difference in the way things are done in Europe (and particularly in Germany) and in USA and Canada.   Apprenticeships are alive and well in Europe, not so much in USA.  That is very significant in my opinion.  Those lengthy apprenticeships involve a lot of hands on training that mitigates the need for many of the details many of us USA users (particularly the non-professionals) would like to see in FestoolUSA's manuals.   If you were to study metal working/mechanics/automobile repair/restoration in Germany, one of the first things you would have to master is filing a perfect straight, flat edge on a piece of sheet metal with a flat file.  It's not as easy as it first appears.  Those who have learned how to sharpen chisels and scrapers will understand what I am trying to say.

Let's not forget to thank Festool for making continuation this of this forum possible and Matthew Schenker for creating it and nurturing it before Festool assumed ownership/responsibility, and the many highly knowledgeable contributors who help one another.

Although I believe Festool could do much better with rather little effort, I somewhat disagree with those who think that Festool should describe all the features of each of their products and how to use all of those features, mainly because I think that is an impossibility due to human creativity.   Brice Burrell's discovery of a way to use the Domino machine to quickly create louvered shutters is an example.  Creativity of the owners/users is always going to result in discovery of new uses not considered by the product development engineers.  We have this forum to use to share such information.

I think Festool should include in their printed manuals one or more website addresses to which a tool owner could go to see more detailed manuals and user videos, which also serve as promotional materials.  I have often hesitated to buy some Festool products because I did not understand their potential value from mere examination of the tool or the simple manuals, and thus could not justify to myself or my wife why I should buy those particular products.  Festool should consider engaging Forrest Anderson to help them provide a link to his excellent and well organized listing of Festool related links.