Sometimes this is the only safe place to talk quality

[SittingElf]

These threads always leave me sad

These threads are my cheap entertainment when I'm not flying in Nigeria!  I get up at 0400 everyday to spend a little time drinking coffee, reading the news, and then going through the Unreads on FOG.  Great way to wake up!

In the U.S. now though, and finding that they just help me procrastinate while spending time reading. My excuse right now is that I'm totally jet-lagged, so working with tools would be dangerous. [big grin] But it sure is nice to be back with all my precious Green!

Cheers,

Frank

 

[tjbier]

Some people just have the stigma in their head.
  I find it interesting that all other manufacturers are now throwing dust extactors in all of their tool lineup's.  Everyone now has a track saw ect.
  Even if people haven't cought on yet, the companies chasing festool haven

 

[jacko9]

[member=5780]frank[/member], I agree with the entertainment value of a lot of forums and a few forums actually have great content!  I'm going out to the shop now and take some clamps off a box glue up that seemed to take a lot of clamping force to bring the dovetail joints together last night just before I quit for the evening.  Discovery time to see if I have a repair or actual progress!

I was in a machine shop program back in 1958 where the instructor told us that we had to make a square block that he would check for squareness and our only tools were a hacksaw and file. 

I buy high quality tools because I value my time and after time in my shop there is still gardening and golf!

Jack

 

[Cheese]

I was in a machine shop program back in 1958 where the instructor told us that we had to make a square block that he would check for squareness and our only tools were a hacksaw and file. 

I buy high quality tools because I value my time and after time in my shop there is still gardening and golf!

Jack

That's a pretty interesting project, but it only goes to show that almost anything can be done with incorrect tools, but it'll take time, and that's one thing I'm always short on.

 

[Bigchasbroon]

My old boss used to say "buy sh**e you buy twice"
And when someone tells me a bad workman blames his tools I tell them that's because a bad workman doesn't buy good tools.

If you value your work and want to produce quality you need to invest it good quality tools suitable for the task. If you do mediocre work and are not too worried about the finish or making a mess on site by all means get down to Home Depot or B&Q there's people who will be happy with the cheapest possible job and will happily pay for crap. Then there's people who want a job done right to a high standard and are willing to pay. They're the people I want to work for so I set my sights a bit higher.

Also festools are actually pretty cheap the way I buy them. Ask me about the UKs tax system  [big grin]

I must disagree with your comment, it is me and my skills that do a top quality job not my tools, I can do perfect work with any tool providing it is sharp and not faulty.

I am not insulting festool users but find it strange that some decide to list their tools as if to say, I am perfect because I have the tools, I have well in excess of €50,000 euros in festool alone but don't feel the need to advertise my tools. My list of tools and wants was done in humour, don't actually own a tape or knife as these are not tools just merchandise.

ok I ask about the UK tax system

I don't understand your argument if you can do a perfect job with any tool why waste money on festools? I suspect you are the type that just likes to "debate"

As I'm self employed all tools I purchase are tax dedectable and because I have children in receive tax credits. The tax credits are reduced by 41% for every pound I earn over a base level therefore every pound I spend on tools increase my tax credits by 41% and reduce my tax bill by 29% so when I bought my ts55r for £308 I recovered the VAT (sales tax) so it cost £256 with tax relief and tax credits the real cost is £76. Plus I sold my old saw for £230 on ebay so I actually ended up making £154 by buying a new saw. Strictly speaking I should declare the income from the old saw but you know how it is....

 

[Brent Taylor]

When I started out in the trades in the late 70's I got crap from people because I was not buying American, most of  my tools were Japanese and European.  I started out repairin barn and trimming homes, then I learned from a Swedish cabinet maker and was exposed to Hammer, Festo,Makita  and Hitachi.  After  he  took his life  I received some of his  equipment and had it  until it was stolen from  me a few years back.  Most  of my tools are 30 to 40 years old. Quality lasts,if you  take care of it. Most people don't think that way any more,  we are told that you have to buy new every few years.       

 

[ajcoholic]

This discussion has two trains of thought IMO -

one being that in many instances, some people seem to get "Festool crazy", and seem to want to want to acquire the entire range of tools, whether they need them or not.  In those cases, I think the person is similar to any other "gang" of people who think that the more of "brand X" they acquire the cooler they will seem to the other members.  Similarly, to the rest of the people, who just see the $$ being spent, thyey can think you're nuts.

on the other hand, I too have tried to explain to fellow tradespeople, that I believed a purchase I made (either Festool or other quality tools or equipment) really does mean more productivity, a better working environment and more.  But there are others who think that cheaper tools are just as good and no amount of discussion will change their opinion.

Ive been in the trade of custom woodworking all my life.  Full time, just having completed my 20th year.  But I grew up with a European father who started our business and even 45 years ago bought the best quality tools he could.

To this day I try and buy the best I can afford, and that will hopefully pay off in the long run.

In terms of hand tools, sometimes that means Festool and other times not.  There are of course other very good tools on the market.

I do think there is also a very different mindset of those who use tools to make a living and those to which it is a hobby or pastime. 

Andrew

PS in the grand scheme of things, I have never once cared, or have ever worried about what others thought of the tools I decided to buy.  I am the only person to whom it matters!

 

[Scott B.]

What is really interesting to me is that Festool itself, in my experience, is not so much about tools as it is about HOW work is done.

 

[SittingElf]

This discussion has two trains of thought IMO -

one being that in many instances, some people seem to get "Festool crazy", and seem to want to want to acquire the entire range of tools, whether they need them or not.  In those cases, I think the person is similar to any other "gang" of people who think that the more of "brand X" they acquire the cooler they will seem to the other members.  Similarly, to the rest of the people, who just see the $$ being spent, thyey can think you're nuts.

on the other hand, I too have tried to explain to fellow tradespeople, that I believed a purchase I made (either Festool or other quality tools or equipment) really does mean more productivity, a better working environment and more.  But there are others who think that cheaper tools are just as good and no amount of discussion will change their opinion.

Your point is taken, but at the same time you seem to allude that tradespeople are somehow superior to those of us who are essentially hobbyists, but want the very best in our home shops.

Yes, I've now purchased virtually EVERY Festool power tool that I can even dream of using in the future. But for the most part, those tools replaced far inferior tools I had been using for years. In fact I'm right in the process of posting the final batch of lesser tools on Craiglist to get them out of my workshop.

In my case, I'm looking forward to my retirement in a few years, and I have the income NOW to buy the whole shebang. I won't have that income after retirement, and prices will continue to increase as we have seen just this month. So... I am taking advantage of my income and dreams to set up my shop with what I call "LifeLong Tools" NOW.  The tools I'm buying I don't ever feel that I'll want to replace with something better, and that's my goal.

I just counted, and I now have 56 Systainers full of Green Goodness. I've achieved my primary goal for small tools, and only have a few larger machines to go to achieve my ultimate dream workshop. These purchases allow me to have a great sense of optimism about my retirement. Woodworking is something that is a passion for me, not a trade, and I won't apologize or feel embarrassed about the fact that I own so many of the absolute BEST tools in the world. Will I use ALL of my purchases in the very near future? Probably not, because I don't have the time and am overseas half the year at work, but I do have the ideas in my head that were the genesis for each and every Festool I've purchased.

I am the same way with Apple for all my I.T. needs, and with Canon photography products as a semi-professional Fine-Art and Documentary photographer.  To each his own needs and desires, and no one should pooh pooh someone for their ambition, dreams, or desires.

Just my  [2cents]

Cheers,

Frank

P.S. Holy Crap!! I just looked at my posting numbers. 1000!!!????  WOW, do I spend THAT much time on here??? [scared]

 

[ajcoholic]

Frank
I don't care and don't think it is wrong for hobby woodworkers to also buy good tools. On the contrary, I also have hobbies and sports I participate in where I have purchased equipment that far exceeds my "needs".  If one can afford it then no problem.

What I don't get is the guys that have thousands in tools that sit in shiny new boxes stacked up on their seldom used work benches. They proudly proclaim how much they spent on the gear but is it for any reason other than because they can?

If you use the gear then great. If you bought it just to say that then, well, to me it doesn't make sense. But that's just my opinion.

I've spent several hundreds of thousands on tools in the past few years upgrading my shop. I'm no stranger to the desire to get the best, or what I think I need in order to make a living in this business. But I still look at every purchase first as what will it contribute to the business vs just to want to have it.

 

[Stephen B]

[size=14pt]
I agree that this is one of the few places that I and we can talk about quality tools. It is also a place we should value reasonable and well argued critical analysis of these tools.

In a few hours, I will be at work selling some of those 'lesser tools'. I have no guilt in selling Makita or Hitachi products. (Even some lesser brands than that, given some customers needs and income.) They, Makita, offer excellent quality for the price. In fact until I purchased two Festool drills, I thought a Makita drill was more than adequate for my needs. They probably still are! But, er . . . well most of us here know and can feel the difference.  [smile]

I am not a trained tradesperson, but my Festool collection is not pristine. For example; yesterday I used four Festool tools in the restoration of an Island Bench in a house we are restoring. I do not think anyone should feel 'superior' over the tool collectors. It is their business. If reports regarding resale values are true, they might in time have a reasonably lucrative hobby.

 

[ianrose]

I hear yah! If you believe in the quality of your work and you can afford it then Festool is the way to go . I build a lot of beds and using the Domino 700 instead of a mortise and tennon ,and at the end of the day saves the client money and they still get a great product . By the time I set up for mortise and tennon joinery the difference is approx. 90 minutes or more compared to the Domino . 

 

[shaun.mcc]

The only reason I have my tools listed as it helps others understand what models you have if you are asking for help or providing it...not a brag. Same thing in auto forums for example...fellow members need to know what vehicles your taking about.

The comments regarding Apple...same deal...I've been a long time user since the old Apple ]['s...other forums always refer to "Apple fanboys".

 

[jnug]

I am self employed and semi-retired at the same time. My tools are really important to me. There are some individual tools from Festool that are just fantastic tools at least IMO. Then there is the additive effect of how well they work together, especially just about anything Festool and the Dust Extractors.

I can't say that I have rated Festool against all other suppliers in every category of tool but the only place I myself have failed to be able to buy Festool was in my recent hunt for an Impact Driver.

I had waited on an Impact Driver because the good ones are not inexpensive and because i wanted some features that were a little slow in coming. This was an instance when I really did want a Festool but it looked to me like I had to go the combo tool kit route to get the Festool Impact Driver and if I found it separately, it was a good deal of money. If I found it only slightly used and in very good shape used it was always part of a combo tool kit (two drill/drivers) and the price once again gets hard to deal with because in my case I would be buying an extra tool that I was not looking to get.

Eventually Makita came out with its brushless line of 3 speed Impact Drivers, 1/4" with the torque adjustment. Correct me if I am wrong but I think that gets me as close to the Festool Impact Driver as i am going to get. I got a complete kit which means two Li-on batts and a charger and a case with the Impact Driver and I think it was a decent price for what it is. It has the features that I wanted and I just hope the Makita turns out to be a good long term investment. But if I had my druthers, I would have found a way to the Festool. I just could not find a way to get there without paying a price that i thought was just too high. Plus since it is an impact driver, there was not that additive thing of how it would work with a Dust Extractor if it were a Festool.

My other tools that are Festools, IMO, I don't think there is really an equivalent out there in the market. Hopefully that does not sound elitist because i don't intend it to be.

 

[Red Devil]

When I first joined this forum I noticed that many users listed there festools in there bio.
So I did too. I like too c what other guys have. It's fun and informative. No big deal imo.

 

[Stephen B]

[size=14pt]
Further to my reply # 31 on this thread.

Once I got to work on Sunday, my first task was to assemble a Chinese made a chainsaw for display. This model was obviously a direct copy of a Sthil, but as I said rather loudly . ". . . ##, they could have at least copied the chain adjustment mechanism properly".

And to top it off, [size=18pt]

the instructions were only in one language - Russian!!  [eek]

 

[andy5405]

Elitist comments about Festool are silly when you could buy Mafell.