Spraying Latex and Benjamin Moore Advance with Fuji HVLP

[seveningred]

I just bought a brand new Fuji Mini Mite 4 with a gravity fed gun and wanted some input from those of you that have had success spraying it. 

I am usingBM Advance and latex paints.  I recently purchased a lake house (closing next Friday!) and I'll be spraying all of the doors, window casings, and trim with BM Advance.  I have to paint the ceiling and walls as well then eventually the kitchen cabinets.  I would love to spray the walls and ceilings, but I'm not sure if that's going to be the best route to go.  My question is, for those of you that have a Fuji 4 stage turbine system, how did you thin your paints (if at all).  My local BM owner said only thin BM Advance with water.  He said thin latex with water and Floetrol.  How much and what did you thin with for successful results? Any input is greatly appreciated!

 

[tjbnwi]

We'll get the walls and ceilings out of the way first, the Fugi is not the unit to use on surfaces that large. It can be done but this is not what it was designed to do.

You don't say whether or not you purchased additional orfices and needles. If not order the largest available for the gun, should be a #6.

Mix with a propeller type mixer in a drill.

Use filtered or distilled water. Impurities in the water may show in the paint.

A pressure pot is your best bet for latex, but you can thin it to somewhere around 40 on the Ford 4 and it will spray just fine. You won't get the build, but a few coats will solve that problem. Flotrol is not a thinner, it is an extender, you'll notice it is probably thicker than the paint.

I've never sprayed/used Advance, I'll have to look at the product and get back to you.

Tom

 

[tjbnwi]

Just looked at the Advance TDS.

The Advance is 7 points thicker than the Regal latex on a KU scale. With it being thicker, it may take a little more thinning (the TDS states Do Not Thin).

Again I've never used the product, so you'll have to play with it to get it to work. This would definitely go in my pressure pot if I had to shoot it. 

Tom

 

[fidelfs]

I have the same exact equipment, the gun maybe older of what you got. I bought mine 3-4 years ago.

I have used it with much success with Advance.  I thin with only water and I follow the recommendations from the manual (20 - 30 seconds)

Be aware of the curing time for Advance is longer than any paint.  It may take around a week before you can sand and apply a new coat.  It dries fast but the paint remains very soft for many days.  When it cures is very hard more than a latex paint.

I use needle #4, I tried 6 but not so good results.

Another thing you might discover, I was using Advance but I got frustrated with curing time, so I went to buy BM latex Aura, same color (I thought so).  Colors are different, because the materials used to make the paint.
They even tried to made it custom color, trying to match it close to the Advance, close but not the same.
I had to sand so many cabinet doors to the bare wood and start over.  I contacted BM and they said that is nothing they can do, different materials give different colors.

Another recommendation is to have the surfaces horizontal, the paint tends to run off very easily. Vertical can be done, but you have to apply more coats and because the curing time it will take for ever.

Amazing paint, but you need to know all the issues before hand.

 

[tjbnwi]

At 20-30 seconds for paint is to thin. The #6 should have worked at 40 seconds. You and I have the same gun I have the XPS model, mine is the top/side feed.

If you are going to use Aura, be aware that BM has special thinner for Aura. Mixing it with water screws with the chemistry of the paint. 

Tom

 

[tiralie]

If you are going to use Aura, be aware that BM has special thinner for Aura. Mixing it with water screws with the chemistry of the paint. 

Tom is right, don't thin Aura too much or you will get too many runs and drips and it will be a very frustrating experience.
Start at 2-3% by volume and test spray and add until you get good atomization.
It might look a bit "pebbly" out of the gun and settle out smooth. Resist the temptation to thin before you have seen the results of the dried (not cured) sprayed finish.
BM 518 Extender is recommended for Aura but it extends the drying time.
Tim

 

[fidelfs]

I called BM for the Advance paint and they told me not to use anything but water. Anything else will be not good for the paint.

Aura is different.

I thought the #6 is for latex not diluted, straight from the can.

 

[seveningred]

Thank you everyone for the advice.  I'm not moving in the house for another 6 days so when I move in, I'll try and take some before and after pictures.  Hopefully the finish product will look good.  I'll thin the Advance with water and see how things go from there. Thanks for the advice on Aura, I probably would have used floetrol.  I'm also going to try and spray BM Regal (Exterior) on the deck handrails and spindles.  I'll use the floetrol and/or Water there as well.  I'm also going to look into getting a #6 tip.

I appreciate the advice!  Anymore is welcome.  [smile] 

 

[tjbnwi]

I called BM for the Advance paint and they told me not to use anything but water. Anything else will be not good for the paint.

Aura is different.

I thought the #6 is for latex not diluted, straight from the can.

Just pointing out the TDS for Advanced states not to thin the product. I feel at 20 seconds you're way to thin.

All the lines of paint have different viscosities, so thinning may be required no matter what orfice/needle combination. You can also mix air caps to give you better results. Not unusual for me to shoot with a #4 orfice/needle with a #5 air cap.

No benefit to thinning paint if you can spray it full body. Thinning does not allow the paint to layout any better, it just gets it through the gun. Extenders help in the layout of the product. Extenders can be your best friend or worst enemy. Sometimes on the same job.

Aura, you must use the BM product if you need to thin it, anything else and you're pretty much screwed.

Tom

 

[tiralie]

I'm also going to try and spray BM Regal (Exterior) on the deck handrails and spindles.  I'll use the floetrol and/or Water there as well.   

Why are you using floetrol here? 
If you want to thin use XIM's Latex X-Tender.  Floetrol is a conditioner not a thinner.
Tim

 

[aptpupil]

I've not used BM advance before, but I do have the Fuji 4 stage HVLP and have sprayed Kelly Moore's hybrid waterbourne alkyd before. I just thin with water to Fuji's specs (I think it said 30-40 seconds) and I haven't had any problems. Make sure you have the volume control on the gun set right so you're not spraying too much and just work your way around the house. If you set it up right you could feasibly get the spraying done in a day by just going around in circles because the stuff at the beginning would be dry enough for recoat by the time you're finished with the first lap.
Don't bother with floetrol.
I use the #5 tip, IIRC.
Wear a mask.

 

[KENROHLEDER]

I use a Fuji HVLP for painting custom cabinetry using latex paint every day. I'll spray whatever good quality paint my customer is using for the trim in the house so we've sprayed BM, SW, Porter, etc. We thin the latex about 20% using a thinning solution that is 50% windshield washer solvent and 50% Flood Floetrol.  Windshield fluid is a combination of water and alcohol designed to decrease the rate of evaporation so the wiper can clean it off before it dries. It is ideal for use as a paint thinner. The blue dye in there is a dye, not a color solid, so it evaporates with the water and does not affect color even on bright whites. The blue dye helps you know when the paint has been stirred properly as well. We use a drill and a spiral silicone mixing paddle.

The key to getting a really smooth finish with latex is to get the paint to level itself out before it dries. A fine mist of paint that is built to a thoroughly wet coat is important.  Even more important is to have a really smooth primer coat. We sand with 220 then 330 then 400 using Abranet sanding disks and we mist the surface with distilled water as we sand. If the paint is applied to a glass smooth surface, it will flow to a glass smooth finish. If not, you'll see orange peel in dim light. We use a 1.3 tip by the way.

 

[Michael Kellough]

Awesome first post Ken! Thanks for the very interesting tips.

 

[tiralie]

Ken:
Welcome to FOG.

I use a Fuji HVLP for painting custom cabinetry using latex paint every day. I'll spray whatever good quality paint my customer is using for the trim in the house so we've sprayed BM, SW, Porter, etc. We thin the latex about 20% using a thinning solution that is 50% windshield washer solvent and 50% Flood Floetrol.  

Great tip, but wouldn't methyl hydrate work as well as windshield washer and be cheaper.
Having a blue cast to my paint would be difficult for me to adjust to.
Tim

 

[carpedatum]

I like the idea of being able to spray latex with an HVLP gun and will actually be trying it soon enough with an LVLP gun.  The water-cleanup angle resonates with me.  So I've gone out of my way to follow in others' footsteps with regard to thinning latex for this job, and this thread seems pretty canonical to me.

Anybody else might have just gone to any local store and picked up a 99 cent jug of washer fluid, to solve for that part of the puzzle.  I, however, am contemplating this job in central California in August.  There isn't a drop of washer fluid out there, anywhere around me, with any alcohol in it, and I believe that's a big part of the secret sauce here.  We sell "summer" fluid here, this time of year.  No alcohol involved.  I've been to five stores, easily wasted twenty bucks in gas, looking for the right washer fluid.  Nuts!  Time for some research.

There is another community with an unintended use for washer fluid.  Guys who are into adding water/methanol injection to their cars.  The right kind of washer fluid, with the addition of some gas-line antifreeze to change the concentration, will feed their beasts.  They learned this from studying the MSDS for washer fluid.

Methanol's pretty dangerous stuff, so I encourage anyone out there using washer fluid for this task to read up on it, and take care with it.  I've ordered a little straight methanol, and will dilute it with water to approximate washer fluid levels (30-50%) and try it instead. 

 

[tjbnwi]

I shot this video for someone who was having problems shooting SW Pro Classic. This is shot without thinning through a Fuji Xpc-G gun connected to the Q4 turbine, cup is a 3M PPS 8 oz, air cap set is the 4H. (not a great video when you're shooting a video and paint at the same time.)

I sprayed a few gallons of BM Advance un-thinned the other day without a problem. I also shoot SW Wall and Wood primer using the Fuji.

All of the above were top coated with SW KA+.

When I do have to thin I use WW fluid without the Flotrol. Been using WW fluid as the thinner for years.

The cabinet pictured is SW W&W primer, 2 coats sanded between coats with 320, 2 coats SW Pro Classic latex, also sanded, 2 coats KA+ MRE, sanded 320 between coats.



Tom

 

[stillwaterBR]

I sprated a set of custom kitchen cabinets we made with ben Moore advanced in a Fuji q4 w/ a t series and the #5 tip and air cap. The results were very good.

 

[NEW2FES]

If you have a gun capable of producing a finer finish why not use a paint that will have less build and give a better finish. There are a lot of water based lacquer or other finishes that would be a better match for your set up. The Advanced looks great but if you put it near a lacquer or finer finish you will see the difference in detail.

Your gun is capable of a much better atomized finish then say a Wagner or similar finish. That is why you have to water down the product so much to use it. Start with a paint more matched to the gun.

SW Solo is also a great paint to spray, roll or brush. I am not bashing and honestly am here to learn but I am always confused on why mismatching paints and spraying equipment is done so often. I can roll Solo on to where it looks like a lite orange peel sprayed finish. I can spray it with my Graco and it is maybe one step above that. If I did the same with an HVLP and say SW Aqua it would be again that one step better. It all depends on what you have to spray with.

 

[tjbnwi]

If you have a gun capable of producing a finer finish why not use a paint that will have less build and give a better finish. There are a lot of water based lacquer or other finishes that would be a better match for your set up. The Advanced looks great but if you put it near a lacquer or finer finish you will see the difference in detail.

Your gun is capable of a much better atomized finish then say a Wagner or similar finish. That is why you have to water down the product so much to use it. Start with a paint more matched to the gun.

SW Solo is also a great paint to spray, roll or brush. I am not bashing and honestly am here to learn but I am always confused on why mismatching paints and spraying equipment is done so often. I can roll Solo on to where it looks like a lite orange peel sprayed finish. I can spray it with my Graco and it is maybe one step above that. If I did the same with an HVLP and say SW Aqua it would be again that one step better. It all depends on what you have to spray with.

If the statement was aimed at me-----the answer is I needed an exact match to the trim in the house. I had the primer, paint and KA+ top coat. No use running around trying to get a match.

Just because I choose the HVLP over an airless or AAA does not mean I mismatched the equipment to the product. I choose tooling or equipment to fit the situation at hand.

I just finished spraying casework this week where the boxes were sprayed with W&W, Advanced, then top coated with KA+ MRE. The doors and drawer faces were sprayed with KA+ White tinted to match the cases. Why the difference??? Time (really the lack of it due to schedule)......the architect spec'd the color as BM Navaho White, the first mix of CV did not match perfectly, the job had to move along so I did what I had to do. Once I had a break to go get the KA matched I did. The SW Navaho White in paint or KA-W does not match, it had to be an exact match. We spend 4.75 hours and 42 tint attempts to get an exact match. After each adjustment I sprayed a sample board that I had previously sprayed with KA Surfacer. How close is the match----I can spray a spot on top of either of the finish with the other and you cannot discern the difference. 

I can spray  paint to a point where you could not tell me if it was a paint finish, a water bourne lacquer or a CV finish.

I did not attempt the CV again as it is never my first choice of finish, the GC supplied it.

I have not thinned a product in a long time.

Tom

 

[NEW2FES]

Tom?

I do not always check replies when I post things. No insult was meant in any way.

I have a strong auto paint background and am now getting into wood working which of course requires refinishing. To me it is a bit of a hard transition as in the custom car world paint is dead perfect and you chase that every job.

I will be 100% honest in I feel the finishing of my projects has never been to my expectations. I think the consumer based products come up short in ways.

My thinking is base or color coats should be as thin as possible and the clear is what create the durability. So when I see someone spray a latex color coat and then lay clear on top of that it looks odd. I think sometimes the heavy latex paints loose detail in moldings and door profiles.

In regards to the guns or equipment I was following the above in thinking why spray a thinner product with a system designed to lay out heavy drops to flow out vs a finely atomized low build finish.

I have used turbine HVLP years ago and always felt they dried the spray for me but again I never used with latex paints. I have a pro shot that works great but again it is heavy latex paint set up. I have never tried with a fine clear coat.

I am looking at a Fuji or just getting what I know a RP gun and compressor.

Do you feel you get cabinet grade quality shooting Advanced without clear top coat? Will it flow out to a fine detailed color coat?

Thanks and I see where all the confusion everyone has is.