Struggling to get payment from a client.

[waynelang2001]

Thanks for all the replies guys, I'm just going to suck it up and try "fix" things on tuesday, but I do get the feeling he is going to try and squeeze me for a discount or something or tell me he still isnt happy. This is the first time ive had this kind of trouble with a customer before. I'm used to the client being so happy they basically pay me on the spot or transfer the cash while im still on sight without me even asking for it.

Lets hope my next client will be a good one because i have had two lemons this there already. The other one wasnt money related but he kept phoning my suppliers to tell them to hurry up with the material i ordered. That guy got me in some hot water with my suppliers and I really let him have it and told him to stick his other work where the sun dont shine.

 

[Eli]

I guarantee you, and I'd almost put my own money on it, that this guy is going to try and screw you after you've done this add'l work. I would not do one more thing for him until he's paid in full. Never mind warm and fuzzy or prickly or whatever, he has screwed you so far, he knows what he's gotten away with, and he's setting you up for the last milking. DO NOT DO ONE MORE THING without being paid in full.

When you show up to do the work, tell him as soon as you've settled up previous business you'll get started. Stand your ground, and be ready to pack up and leave. It's your choice whether you want cash up front to do these *shonky* cab doors, but don't let him take you for everything.

After you've finished he'll have everything and you'll have nothing, unless you get paid for what you've done so far. Classic trap. This is why a homeowner should leave 5% unpaid until everything is done, and this is why a tradesman should never complete work unless (any one of three or all three):
1. you can swallow not getting paid for the job
2.you have a good payment history with the party you work for
3.you have a clearly written contract that will result in your getting paid

Take the attitude that he will never pay you. Play from that mental position. Giving him more free work will not make him want to pay you. Be polite, be firm. Get your money. You earned it, he owes it. Do not threaten him if he refuses, tell him that you regret that you can't work it out. Use a lot of silence, it is your friend. We enjoy it, but we do it for a living.

 

[Tinker]

I agree in part with Brice in that it looks like work might be slow for you.  That does put you in a sticky position.  My feeling is that the fact that the customer has specified a holiday as the only day he will allow you to go on site (along with no pay up until now) is an indication that further mischief is afoot.  Are there any ordinances in your area that disallow noise or other disturbances too ealy in the morning on any day and/or not allowing work on certain holidays?

I still feel that you should get some legal backup before you even consider going there.  The further we have gone into this thing, the more I get the feeling there has been nothing in writing, no signing of any papers other than you signing receipts for the materials you have supplied.  (Been there, done that.)  If this is true, you are already in too deep to continue with out some very knowledgeable assistance. 

I don't think getting paid in full before you continue further is, by now, an option.  I Think that will give the client further leverage and he may just close the door on you. What happens then? 

Get legal help even if it is only for advice.  You are in a tough situation that has gone too far.
Tinker

 

[Tinker]

"Are there any ordinances in your area that disallow noise or other disturbances too ealy in the morning on any day and/or not allowing work on certain holidays?"  quoted from my last post

I have a snow plowing & sanding business.  I have had it since 1956 (I'm only 39 so I started real young  :)  One year I found out there was a petition going around my town that would put a stop to all noise and work disturbances on Sundays and Holidays.  they wanted no work type disturbances before 7:00 am on any other days. The plan was to close down all disturbances from 5pm on Fridays until 7am on mondays. One of my clients at the time was the First Selectwoman who was a very nice lady.  When I found out about the possible ordinance, my first thought was to talk with her about the situation.

I got to thinking that she could only legislate what the population might propose/pass.  I asked a friend if she would type up a letter for me to send to all of my customers and friends in town. i also mailed copies to my friends in the same business for them to send to their customers.  I was also in construction (mason contractor) and often was in a possition of having to work very early in the mornings, late evenings and even on sundays and holidays.

The letter was very encouraging for people to sign the petition. I indicated that I, for one, would very definitely vote for such a proposition and sincerely hoped it would pass before we had any more snow.  Such an ordinance would allow me to sleep much later in the mornings on snow days.  i would no longer have to go out in the middle of the night to plow snow and i could actually make plans to go skiing on weekends.  I could actually go out and play in the snow with my children.  Oh, there were so many great and wonderful things I could do once it would be forbidden that I should go out to work at all hours of the nite and no weekend work.  Oh, it would be so very quiet on weekends and even so much more pleasant for people to be able to sleep at nite without being disturbed by noisy snow plows.  I hoped that even the highway crews would be included in the ordinance.  They were so much more noisy than the small trucks that were only plowing driveways.  I spread it real thick and sent out many letters. 

The petition just sort of disappeared.  No action was ever taken.  I like to think that I might have had something to do with that.  [scratch chin]
Tinker

 

[duburban]

Thanks for all the replies guys, I'm just going to suck it up and try "fix" things on tuesday, but I do get the feeling he is going to try and squeeze me for a discount or something or tell me he still isnt happy. This is the first time ive had this kind of trouble with a customer before. I'm used to the client being so happy they basically pay me on the spot or transfer the cash while im still on sight without me even asking for it.

Lets hope my next client will be a good one because i have had two lemons this there already. The other one wasnt money related but he kept phoning my suppliers to tell them to hurry up with the material i ordered. That guy got me in some hot water with my suppliers and I really let him have it and told him to stick his other work where the sun dont shine.

sorry, i didn't remember the story correctly. wish you the best.

 

[Alan m]

"Are there any ordinances in your area that disallow noise or other disturbances too ealy in the morning on any day and/or not allowing work on certain holidays?"  quoted from my last post

I have a snow plowing & sanding business.  I have had it since 1956 (I'm only 39 so I started real young  :)  One year I found out there was a petition going around my town that would put a stop to all noise and work disturbances on Sundays and Holidays.  they wanted no work type disturbances before 7:00 am on any other days. The plan was to close down all disturbances from 5pm on Fridays until 7am on mondays. One of my clients at the time was the First Selectwoman who was a very nice lady.  When I found out about the possible ordinance, my first thought was to talk with her about the situation.

I got to thinking that she could only legislate what the population might propose/pass.  I asked a friend if she would type up a letter for me to send to all of my customers and friends in town. i also mailed copies to my friends in the same business for them to send to their customers.  I was also in construction (mason contractor) and often was in a possition of having to work very early in the mornings, late evenings and even on sundays and holidays.

The letter was very encouraging for people to sign the petition. I indicated that I, for one, would very definitely vote for such a proposition and sincerely hoped it would pass before we had any more snow.  Such an ordinance would allow me to sleep much later in the mornings on snow days.  i would no longer have to go out in the middle of the night to plow snow and i could actually make plans to go skiing on weekends.  I could actually go out and play in the snow with my children.  Oh, there were so many great and wonderful things I could do once it would be forbidden that I should go out to work at all hours of the nite and no weekend work.  Oh, it would be so very quiet on weekends and even so much more pleasant for people to be able to sleep at nite without being disturbed by noisy snow plows.  I hoped that even the highway crews would be included in the ordinance.  They were so much more noisy than the small trucks that were only plowing driveways.  I spread it real thick and sent out many letters. 

The petition just sort of disappeared.  No action was ever taken.  I like to think that I might have had something to do with that.  [scratch chin]
Tinker

great story wayne.
its one of those caught both ways sort of situations.
they dont want to have you driving past their house but still want the snow moved.
my mother works for the council. they get letters about a bad stratch of road etc  . then when they go out to fix it they get letters from the same people complaining that there is road works, noise, diversions etc.
you cant win

 

[Tinker]

Alan, You know the territory i see.  We must be on hand and ready to handle ALL problems with our equipment, and then disappear from the face of the earth until needed again.  Been there many times.  Many great stories to tell.

For WayneLang:
Here is a copy of a note I just received from a "good" customer

Dear Tinker,

Hope Christmas was peaceful and your back isn't giving you too much grief. Today we were battening down the hatches in anticipation of the expected snow and No Name said, "I hope you paid Tinker," to which I replied, "I thought YOU did!" Much toing and froing and blaming went on after that but the bottom line is, we owe you money and ultimately it's my fault because I realized No Name did ask me to pay and I forgot. We found out because we mailed your check along with our tax check to the town of Wilton and they were good enough to alert us to the fact. This was a few months ago and it's been in limbo ever since. My fault. Mea culpa.

Please remove us from the "Naughty Deadbeat" list.

All the best for the new year.
Signature on with note

This small bill has been running for almost a year.  I did not bug them because sooner or later, they would need my help somewhere along the line. The husband has been out of work and the wife has had spotty employment, i think with her own biz.  I do plow & sand their driveway.  My son is partners with me on that part of my biz.  I do the bookkeeping and set up the books so my son gets paid in full whether I collect or not. (I have had this route since 1956 and have only missed one storm as I had surgery that day.  My BOSS LADY took exception to my idea to go out plowing as soon as the op was completed.  Women get the funniest notions at times ) I neglected to tell my son about the arrears and so he has been plowing their driveway every storm.  When i finish my part of plow route, i grab the sand truck and go sand driveways. When i have gotten to this driveway, i have NOT sanded even tho all of the neighbors got sanded.  This woman finally got the message as you can see.

It does not always work this way.
Tinker

 

[Sparktrician]

Not only would I DEMAND payment before I picked up another tool for the guy, I would DEMAND it in C A S H !!!

No arguing that logic!!! 

I feel differently.  It sounds like Wayne has little or no work, so he has time on his hands and is in urgent need of capital to pay bills.  Sucking it up and working with this guy might be the fastest (and maybe only) way to get paid.  Assuming spending some time on this job isn't going to take away from other paying jobs and he isn't laying out money in material out of pocket, I say give it shot.

I'd say this is a last ditch effort to get paid with the least amount of time invested.  When one's back is up against the wall there is no time for pride or anger to get in the way.   

I would have to respectfully disagree.  Whenever one compromises the value of one's work and their investment in a particular job, one is compromising their own self-worth.  I understand all too well that there are times when one's back is against the wall, having been there myself.  I, for one, refuse to devalue the labor I put into doing a job well and thoroughly.  Many other craftsmen I know feel the same way.  We all know that we're only as good as our last job.  With that thought in mind, it is incumbent on us to always do our best.  If a customer chooses to devalue us or our workmanship, that is on them, not us.  When a customer insists on unreasonable conditions, like hanging cabinets outside of normally-accepted practices such as level, plumb and straight, it is on us to insist on proper documentation of that demand, and to document fully what we've done, if for no other reason, to be able to defend the work done.  In any case, it is entirely right to insist on payment in full for work performed.  When a customer fails to pay us, and we fail to demand proper payment, the customer is devaluing us, and we are mirroring that devaluation of ourselves.  If we repeat this pattern with customers that are known to devalue us and our workmanship, what example does that set for future relationships?  The owner of one company I used to work for, when faced with similar circumstances, would inform the non-paying customer, through his lawyer, of course, that if certified payment was not received in full by a specific date, he would send a crew to de-install the products, and would have police along with a court order to enforce the de-installation.  End of story.  It worked in several cases.  The names of those refusing to pay went on a list of customers never to do business with ever again.  I rather suspect that he shared this information with other contractors in the area so they wouldn't similarly be burned.  YMMV. 

 

[Bob Gerritsen]

Wayne, I feel it s impossible to totally judge the situation for us. You need to decide what is the best route to take for you,obviously. However, it does sound like you're playing this on the defense where you're customer is in attack mode. Changing that might well improve your chances. Going along and changing the cabinet is no guarantee for getting your money and it sounds like you'll be having a pretty hard time with those hinges. Really, it is totally alright to insist on getting paid before changing that cabinet.
Like said, it is your call but please consider exploring a plan b. You need to know where you stand legally in any case, that shouldn't be too hard to find out with Internet and all. Then you know how much you need to play along. The attitude you're getting doesn't mean the customer is right and they might well know this themselves. Knowing you're rights is essential as it will probably change your position and get you out of the defensive.

 

[waynelang2001]

Hi guys, thanks again for all the advice. Ive been hit pretty hard with a serious flu so i have not been able to come on sooner. This whole problem is starting to affect my health so for me the best thing to do is bite my lip for now and do what I need to. If I do go on the offensive I think i would just be putting myself in harms way. Luckily I do have some access to a lawyer if I need to go that way but lets just hope I dont need to.

These people are also going to be needing some more work done, but once I get payed I will tell them where to stick there extra work. I will also be telling the other cabinet makers, builders, plumbers and contractors that I know to stay away from these people. That might give them something to think about if they ask someone to do some work there and get told off.

I might be getting into the photography field pretty soon as I cant see myself just doing cabinetmaker work forever as my body is starting to give me hits that its time to get income somewhere else. My younger brother did photo shoots but as his job has become more time consuming he doest have time for it. At least I wont have to sink any cash into getting the photography up and running.

Anyway, I will let you guys know on tuesday night how it all went down and if I finally got payed. See you then.

 

[galwaydude18@gmail.com]

I hope it all works out for you! Iv been caught out for a huge amount of materials on a job before and only ever got €500 of the €2000 of materials! I never saw anything else and got every single excuse from cancer to cheques not clearing.

I hope it's not affecting your health badly because no need that to happen!

 

[Tinker]

Wayne, I just get a bad feeling for your situation. Do you have anything in writing about going in there on New Years Day?  Keep us posted on how it goes, please.
Tinker

 

[waynelang2001]

Wayne, I just get a bad feeling for your situation. Do you have anything in writing about going in there on New Years Day?  Keep us posted on how it goes, please.
Tinker

Well I had my tools ready and was about to leave the house, but I just phoned him to make sure what time i should be there. As usual he never answers his cellphone so I found his home number and phoned.
His wife answered the phone and I asked what time I should come through. She said oh no we dont want you here today, we said on the 2nd............Well not true because he told me he wanted me there tuesday. So I guess there just trying to make things as difficult as they can for me now. So I will go tomorrow and let you guys know what happened.

 

[Tinker]

By now, i am pretty sure you have absolutely nothing in writing.  No contract and practically no direction.  Get some legal advice.  Not one step further without. You said earlier you had a lawyer you could talk with if push came to shove (not directly quoted).  Talk to him before going any further >>> or walk away.  These people are playing a very serious and unrewarding game with you.  The longer it goes on, the deeper you will get.  If you have nothing in writing, you probably have no other alternative but to walk away.  And I am not so sure that can work to your benefit.  No matter, I doubt they have any intentions to accept the job or to pay.
Tinker

 

[galwaydude18@gmail.com]

How did you get on today? Hope it went well

 

[waynelang2001]

How did you get on today? Hope it went well

Didnt get on today at all, I got a early text from him this morning that read as follows " Do not come today, come on thursday the 3rd of january 2013 " this is obviously a cheep stab at me for phoning them on new years to ask what time i should come through. I think he is basically telling me that i heard wrong the other week when he said come on tuesday, his wife says no he said the 2nd. Well I know what i heard and i still remember thinking who tells someone to come work on new years day.......

Any way I hope i dont get another message tomorrow morning to tell me come another day.

And as for some of the advise ive been given by some of the FOG members to just walk away, I assure you that is something I cannot and will not do. I have already had to borrow money from my younger brother to try and survive decembers bills and now i owe him. So it isnt my money that he owes its my brothers. And I will never stand for not getting payed even if I have to pull out all the work done to sell off again to get some payment back.

 

[galwaydude18@gmail.com]

They really are running you around at this stage. Luckily are patient and not roaring and screaming down the phone at them.
I hope that tomorrow brings really good news for you!!

 

[Kevin D.]

Not sure how much good it may do or whether you will actually need it, but you should try to voice record clandestinely without him knowing he is being recorded a conversation with him outlining what is amiss with what he expects, what has been and done completed to his satisfaction, and also details in regards to what he owes you and promises of payments being made to you. 

You may also want to consider bringing something in writing to get him to sign before proceeding with any more work, seeing as you don't have a contract with him if I'm not mistaken that you've had him sign previously.

And don't be afraid to lay it on the line with him.  Nothing wrong with saying that his delays in paying you are unorthodox in these situations, and you have bills to pay with the moneys owing to you and it's important that you get paid immediately with no further delay.  Ask him why he is not prepared to pay you for what has been completed right now.

Just some ideas.  Hope you get paid.  I hate getting stiffed and I hope sincerely that that does not happen in your case.  The few that have done it to me I hope they die before me so I can piss on their graves one day. [mad]

 

[peter halle]

Wayne,  Good Luck.  Luckily I live in an area where if two individuals are having a discussion it is legal to record a conversation without the consent or knowledge of the other party.  Not all places allow that.  Keep you text messages, and the more of conversations you can get via text (in writing) the better.

Absolutely don't walk away.  The situation may be almost over. 

Peter

 

[mhch]

Well, if recording isn't allowed, you may consider visiting your customer with someone else, who then will be able to act as a witness of what the customer said.
Write down a summary as soon as you leave and have the someone else sign it before details are forgotten.

I would avoid making this clear to the customer of course, just saying this person is some sort of apprentice you are training.

One point to consider: In many countries, relatives aren't the best persons to use as witnesses, better check how it is in your location.