Struggling to get payment from a client.

[Tinker]

This has absolutely nothing in point about your situation, but it's a good collection story,

When I lived in Jerusalem years ago I knew a plumber that had a plumbing company.
He had a large job in the old city where he did extensive retrofitting throughout the entire house.
During the course of the job he had issues getting progress payments and knew that at completion he would have a problem.
So during the last segment he put a ball valve to a feed line that fed half the house. [big grin](It was buried under tiles - most floors are tiled in Jerusalem)
On the day of the walk-thru everything worked flawlessly, he told his client that he would come back the next day to collect his tools and his check.
Upon the morning of the next day, the client gave a sob story and said it would take them a few weeks to secure the funds. :
He said fine and took an hour to collect his tools and left.
That evening he got a very excited call, their water wasn't working in half the house!
Really? Was his reply.
"Well that could be corrected after he receives his final payment, (or they could tear apart the entire line looking for the culprit)

He got paid in cash that evening.
(After he got paid he went to that one tile that was set with heavy double face tape lifted it, turned on the water, set the tile and left with a very calm manor)

True story. (???)

Come on Roger.
I think a copy of that story has been repeated/told/actually happened (bigger ???????'s) about every trade in the business.  Heard the story about 60 some odd years ago about a mason who suspected payment problems from a customer.  He built a fireplace and chimney.  Before he finished the last section of the chimney, he lit a fire and showed the customer how great the fire place worked.  He then went back up on the scaffolding and completed the last section >>> after installing a pane of glass between flus. within a day or so, he got a call that the room had filled with smoke as soon as they had lit a fire.  The mason went to look at the "problem" and assured them the fireplace would work.  He knew what was wrong but needed to be paid before he could fix it.  When he had check in hand, he set up his ladder, climbed up and dropped a brick down thru and VOILA!!!  the fireplace worked.  "TRUE STORY"  8)  Thru the years, i have heard dozens of varryations to the story.  AND, THEY ARE ALL TRUE  [scratch chin][poke] [dead horse]

A friend of mine, a contractor i did work for over 20 years, started telling me the same story some 40 years after i first heard it.  I started funning him about his BS, but he had a great imbellishment to it.  Without even blinking, he continued, "well I did it a little different."

He went on to tell me he had put a piece of 1" plexiglass between the flue liners.  When his mason was finally paid, he went up and dropped a brick down thru.  The brick just bounced, so he dropped another with the same results.  So he went to his truck and got a crowbar, climbed back up to chimney top and tried driving the bar thru the glass with no better results than with the bricks.  he went back to his truck and got a sledge hammer and tried driving the bar down thru, but there was enough spring in the plexiglass that it just threw the bar back over his head.  He finally got his welder and ended up cutting the glass with his torch.  True Story  [thumbs up]  At least the part where I was telling you about the story being told to me was true.

Draw your own conclusions about he rest.  :
Tinker

 

[peter halle]

It is always interesting to read the various "improvised remedies" for collecting, but before anyone attempts such remedies they should be aware that their actions might have consequences.  Removing installed materials on a job may be theft, damaging a home - vandalism, closing a chimney so that the house fills up with smoke...  you get the idea.

We don't always live in a fair world.

Peter

 

[Tinker]

It is always interesting to read the various "improvised remedies" for collecting, but before anyone attempts such remedies they should be aware that their actions might have consequences.  Removing installed materials on a job may be theft, damaging a home - vandalism, closing a chimney so that the house fills up with smoke...  you get the idea.

We don't always live in a fair world.

Peter

I found out about removing materials from a job early on.  My earliest jobs as a small contractor were small jobs.  I would order enough blocks to do two or three jobs.  But, i would have them all delivered to the first job on the list and as the job went on, i would have my helper load the blocks for the next job onto my truck and we would drop them off on the way home, or the next morning.  One afternoon, as we were loading the "extra" blocks, the owner came along and wanted tto know what we were doing with his blocks.  i explained what we were doing, but he thought he had paid for the entire load.  It took some very careful talking to explain that i had given him a price to do a specific job.  The extra blocks had been ordered for another job and it was cheaper to have them all delivered to one job and redistributed and blablabla.......  i got the man to understand and he seemed ok with what i was doing.

As soon as i got home, i called an old friend and mentor to explain what had happened.  He told me i was fortunate to have been able to keep the blocks.  It seems that once materials are delivered to a property, the materials belong to the owner regardless of what my intentions had been..  from that time on, if i had small jobs, i would have the load delivered to my house, or one of my contractors who i could trust (and the trust was reciprocal.) the alternative was to drop the blocks for job #1 at the job and put the rest of the load onto my own truck or send the extras to the job where they were meant to be used.
Tinker

 

[woodguy7]

Any updates Wayne ?  I'm kinda in the same boat but different situation.  Large corporation (we will just call them that) owes me 4.5k GBP & it is very overdue.  I'm sure I will get the money but just getting the run around from one department to the next.  Keep asking for quotes for other work but told them I'm not doing another stroke until paid in full !
No problems with anything, they just give everyone the run around.

Hope you got yours.

 

[Eli]

Any updates Wayne ?  I'm kinda in the same boat but different situation.  Large corporation (we will just call them that) owes me 4.5k GBP & it is very overdue.  I'm sure I will get the money but just getting the run around from one department to the next.  Keep asking for quotes for other work but told them I'm not doing another stroke until paid in full !
No problems with anything, they just give everyone the run around.

Hope you got yours.

The only department you need to get good with is the accounting department.  [big grin]

 

[b_m_hart]

I don't know how credit rating agencies work in that part of the world, but I'd suggest you start looking into putting a black mark on his credit if he continues to mess around with the money that is owed you.  There are other ways of shaming folks into paying, but rarely is it ever a good idea to go that route.

Get the lawyer going, put the black mark on his credit, EVEN IF HE PAYS YOU IN THE END.  That 30/60/90 (or however many days late) black mark will hurt his credit rating, and it's completely legitimate.

 

[Wooden Lungs]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/sussex/7361422.stm

This is how they roll in the UK  [big grin]

 

[Distinctive Interiors]

A similar thing happened to a builder near me. He landscaped ground at the rear of a local restaurant and built them a car park.
The owners of the restaurant refused to pay him for the work that he did, so he turned up with a JCB and dug it all up....!!!!!!

He said it was the principle of the thing!

Good for him, I say!!!!!!!!!!!!

It is exactly what I would do if I was in his position.

 

[sancho57]

Wayne I hope this all works out for you. In the future I would take lots of photos of your work before and after. It seems like you spent alot of time working there. I dont know what the  laws are in SA but here we can request money up front to secure the job, buy materials etc, then in the contract draw money out to pay labor more materials etc and then a final payment where they would pay you the residual.

Also you mentioned that you verbally told them about certain things such as the cabnets installed incorrectly. You should of documented those items and have the initial showing they were aware of the issue(s). You must cover your arse every way the best you can. B/C if it becomes time to go before the man in litigation you have to prove your point. All the attempts for payent should of been in writing. Some method of proving that you indeed did request payment form them. Even if you take conversation records along with dates and times and if anyone was around who could of heard your conversations with this deadbeat, its something to show that you have made attempts.

Im sorry this happened to you. Please keep us informed as to how this plays out.

 

[woodguy7]

Any news Wayne ?  I'm guessing hes not paid yet as I'm sure you would have said if he had.  Hope your health is not suffering due to this.

Woodguy.

 

[Tinker]

Every time I'm forced to hound someone for payment, I think of this kid.  I WANT MY TWO DOLLARS!

Thought it might give you a good laugh Wayne.



Jon
[/quote

When my son was in second or third grade, he got himself into a little neighborhood mess.  The couple two houses away from us (half and quarter acre lots all) had split up and moved away.  The husband had worked for me and even tho i was not yet into landscaping, i was letting him handle much of my finishing off of any excavation projects.  I tore things apart with my backhoe and then would rgrade and let him do the instalations of shrubs and lawns.  He had been interested mainly in flowers. Against the back of his house, he had constructed a haphazard green house to grom plants that he was selling to some of the local garden stores.

When he split the area, he disassembled his greenhouse and leaned the frames against the back of his house. A month or two after he had left, and having left no forwarding address, it was finally determined by a local lawyer who was handling the wife's biz, that he was not intending to come back for his glass frames.  The gossip spread and i guess the murmer trickled down to some of the children.

My son was, from the git-go, very interested in what i did.  He was practically glued to my backhoes.  He loved spending a lot of time helping me with anything i would allow in the mason trade.  He was with me everywhere I went.  NOT QUITE EVERY WHERE.  One afternoon as the two f us were riding in my truck, he spoke very quietly, "Dad, I did something wrong the other day."

"Did you get into some sort of trouble?" I asked.

"Yes," he answered.  He went on to tell me how he and three other kids in the neighborhood had smashed a bbunch of the windows that were stacked against the vacant house.

"Did you break any windows on the house itself?"

"No." 

We continued the conversation and since he had really liked the departed neighbor, he told me he felt really bad about what had happened.  I finally asked if he had any ideas how he could make things straight.  After kicking that around a little bit, I suggested that he should fix the windows.  He admitted he did not really know how and i really did not want him pulling broken shards of glass out of very splintering wood frames.  I had no idea where they had been or what sort of pesticides had been introduced.  I finally told my son that i would take the frames to the local glass shop and have them fix the broken glass.  I would pay for the job at the glass shop; but he would owe me and we could figure a way for him to pay me back.  "What about the other three who also broke glass?"

"I don't give a hoot about those other kids.  It is you i care about."  We talked a little more until i finally told him that as far as i was concerned, this problem was between the two of us.  If he wanted the other kids to pay their share, it was up to him to collect.

Once we got the windows repaired and brought back to the house, I told my son how much he owed (which he eventually did pay off.  thru the years, i have loaned him rather large sums to help him start his own biz.  ALL of which he has paid with only a verbal promise. I'm pretty proud of that when i hear of others who have ended up footing large loads that never get payed back from familly members.), he took the receipt around the neighborhood to collect.  Without exception, each parent told him, basically, to get lost.  Their kids never did anything like that.  That evening, my son was very sad as he told me nobody would pay.  "What are you going to do about that?" I asked.

He did not know, so I suggested he go back the next day.  The next day, two of the parents paid their share.  One did not.

My son went back to that house every day as soon as he got home from school.  It took him a little over a month to finally collect, but he ended up with every penny he felt was owed to him.  I let him know i was very proud of him and I hoped the lessons he had learned from the entire episode would last him for many years. 

By the time he was 19, he had established enough credit on his own that he was able to purchase his own equipment with a bank loan >>> without a signature from either of his parents.  The same when he bought his own house at age 20.  He actually has done a far better job of collecting from deadbeats than I ever did.  I think he learned something from the glass experience.
Tinker

 

[3PedalMINI]

I will never understand what goes through customers minds and the nerve that think they can screw hardworking tradesmen that are just out trying to live day by day. Where do they get off? do they look at the piece you made and get giddy inside because they got it for "free" how could you not feel guilty every time you look at it?

I dont know how you or other craftsmen have their payment schedules set up but in my industry I changed mine after getting bent over on a large project. My "deposit" is 100% equipment upfront, then as soon as we walk in the door its 45% for labor, when were 75% completed it it is another 45 and then finally the 10% on sign off and completion. That means if they dont pay final Im only out 10% of labor, If we dont get paid at any point we dont work until the payment has been made and cleared. It has worked well, Its also nice that I dont have to bankroll the equipment until completion. The only time this policy gets broken is if its a commercial project and they have net30 terms. Small businesses do not get offered net30, they are treated like a residential client. Large companies & corporations ill be a little more lenient because chances are they will pay one way or another  [tongue]

some customers grumble when they have to pay 100% of the equipment upfront, even for large multimonth projects but after a few minutes of explaining why they usually get it and write the check.

I hope everything works out for you, i have zero respect for people that refuse to pay their bills and their tradesmen.

 

[waynelang2001]

Hi guys,

I have a small update for you, about 10 days ago he payed me R3000 of the outstanding R11 290 he still owes me. I dont know what the purpose of this payment is because it will still not get me out the hole im in when i need to pay my bills at the end of the month. I have sent him 3 emails again and he finally replied to the last one and just said today is not a good day to pay. What???? When is a good day to pay then ???

He has clearly told me before that he has the money. I think he is just going to drag this out as long as he can just to try and get under my skin. What I have had to do now is borrow money from family to get throught is month, I HATE having to ask others for money but luckily they where very understanding and helped me out no problem.

Anyway, I dont know when he will pay the rest and honestly I dont really care at this point. I am just going to push on with the other work I have. When he does pay I'm going to tell him exactly what i think of him and im pretty sure it will send him through the roof, but I really could'nt care less about how he fells after what he has put me thru.

 

[woodguy7]

Ok Wayne, I think it is quite clear that he docent have the money !  The fact he gave you something is promising though, you just have to keep at him.  Possibly tell him you will be adding interest to the total ?

 

[waynelang2001]

Ok Wayne, I think it is quite clear that he docent have the money !  The fact he gave you something is promising though, you just have to keep at him.  Possibly tell him you will be adding interest to the total ?

Yeah from the outside it would appear that way, but from the back and forth emails it is easy for me to tell that he is just trying to get under my skin.

P.S He gave me another R2000 today, so I would expect the next payment to be R1000 and then maybe R500 after that, Its just a game to him right now.

 

[harry_]

Ok Wayne, I think it is quite clear that he docent have the money !  The fact he gave you something is promising though, you just have to keep at him.  Possibly tell him you will be adding interest to the total ?

Yeah from the outside it would appear that way, but from the back and forth emails it is easy for me to tell that he is just trying to get under my skin.

P.S He gave me another R2000 today, so I would expect the next payment to be R1000 and then maybe R500 after that, Its just a game to him right now.

Only because you haven't stopped playing with him. Go see a lawyer. Find out what your legal rights are, specifically, and then act upon them accordingly.

 

[waynelang2001]

Ok Wayne, I think it is quite clear that he docent have the money !  The fact he gave you something is promising though, you just have to keep at him.  Possibly tell him you will be adding interest to the total ?

Yeah from the outside it would appear that way, but from the back and forth emails it is easy for me to tell that he is just trying to get under my skin.

P.S He gave me another R2000 today, so I would expect the next payment to be R1000 and then maybe R500 after that, Its just a game to him right now.

Only because you haven't stopped playing with him. Go see a lawyer. Find out what your legal rights are, specifically, and then act upon them accordingly.

I have seen a lawyer, and after a long talk we decided to wait it out to see what happens. If I take the legal route it might take to long and end up costing me just about as much as im owed.
The best thing for me now to stop with the back and forth and carry on with life and work as usual.

I will also be updating my quotations stating that the balance owed must be waiting for me on delivery/installation day in CASH. No cash, no installation. If customers dont like that idea then they are most likely the people im trying to stay away from.

 

[Sparktrician]

I'm not a contractor.  Things may be different there but  I've paid contractors $10's of thousands in the past couple years for stuff I couldn't or didn't want to do myself like roofing, tile, well drilling etc, etc. and not one proposal said cash only.  Final payment due at completion sure (though many say that in the proposal, then say "mail us the check" that day) but if a contractor was only willing to accept cash that would be a red flag in my mind.

And I'd bet that those contractors hadn't had to deal with customers like Wayne had.  With people like that, I'd float in a clause that required payment in advance in cash, and which stated that the title for goods delivered would remain mine until the final payment was received in cash. 

 

[mattfc]

I have seen a lawyer, and after a long talk we decided to wait it out to see what happens. If I take the legal route it might take to long and end up costing me just about as much as im owed.
The best thing for me now to stop with the back and forth and carry on with life and work as usual.

I will also be updating my quotations stating that the balance owed must be waiting for me on delivery/installation day in CASH. No cash, no installation. If customers dont like that idea then they are most likely the people im trying to stay away from.

Having had a quick google, you have a small claims court system (claims less than 12k Rand) in south africa also, don't bother with the lawyer, if its a clear cut case (e.g. written quote, clear payment terms), plus nothing back from the customer to question the quality or scope of works, you can represent yourself
http://www.justice.gov.za/scc/scc.htm

Given the customers has paid some, its clear they accept you have done the works etc

 

[zapdafish]

Sorry things have worked out so badly for you.

I've had work done on my house by contractors as well and no way would I pay cash in advance. That does send up red flags for me too. I'd be willing to post date a check or pay with credit card but asking for cash to me means they are trying to do something under the table.

I'm not a contractor.  Things may be different there but  I've paid contractors $10's of thousands in the past couple years for stuff I couldn't or didn't want to do myself like roofing, tile, well drilling etc, etc. and not one proposal said cash only.  Final payment due at completion sure (though many say that in the proposal, then say "mail us the check" that day) but if a contractor was only willing to accept cash that would be a red flag in my mind.