Sysport is Not Square - What to Do?

[Patrick Cox]

Well, I am ready to screw together my first sysport box and when I measure corner to corner, I don’t get the same measurement.  One direction is 940mm and the other is 950mm.  What should I do?  I felt like I may be a bit off because I had some problems getting my cut pieces to be exactly the same size.  However in the end I thought they were close enough.  I guess not - at least not to end up with a perfectly square box.

So now I am not sure what to do.  Will a 10mm difference across this distance cause serious problems?  When I measure various distances along the top and bottom they all seem pretty close.  Meaning within a mm or so.  Also my dry fit looks like I can screw it together without any problems.  I just worry about the drawers.

Thanks or your input!

Picture below.

Pat

 

[rljatl]

Measure the sides, top and bottom to see which sides/ends are off and re-cut.

If not glued, take it apart and re-cut the parts stacked in pairs.  Just trim enough off to make them the same size.

I don't know what to tell you if it is already glued together.  Maybe you could cut it apart and make it a little smaller? 

 

[Patrick Cox]

Measure the sides, top and bottom to see which sides/ends are off and re-cut.

If not glued, take it apart and re-cut the parts stacked in pairs.  Just trim enough off to make them the same size.

I don't know what to tell you if it is already glued together.  Maybe you could cut it apart and make it a little smaller?

Nothing is connected, other than my drawer slides are installed.  This is a dry fit of the sides and top/bottom.  But if I start cutting again I am worried about my drawer holes being out of alignment.  I wonder if I just need to start over?  If I screw this together being 10mm off on the diagonal, what will be the result?  (Why would that be a bad idea?)

Thanks

 

[waho6o9]

Install top, middle, and bottom rails and square it up as best you can.

Are any of the pieces bowed out? Any noticeable gaps?

Or, take everything apart and cut both partitions at once and cut both top and bottom at once
and things should even out better for you.

 

[Jesse Cloud]

What would the result be?  The drawers will probably stick, if they will mount at all.  In any case, you will have very visible gaps in all the wrong places.

Bottom line is that every time you see it, you will curse and vow to redo it when you have time. 

If you have another woodworker in your shop, he will notice it immediately and kid you mercilessly.  Don't ask me how I know that. [embarassed]

Sounds like time for a do-over.

 

[thudchkr]

If I understand correctly, when measure your diagonals, they differ by 10mm. All you have to do is slightly pull the corners with the longer measurement together during your glue up. Just make sure they match before the glue sets.

Do you have a back in your sysport?  If so, is it square?

If square, it can be a tight fit in your sysport and it will hold the rest of the sysport square as well. If not square, and it's a little bit smaller, it can still hold the case square it it is fastened into place after the case has been squared up by verifying the diagnosis match.

Bottom line, your case will easily rack that amount to where the case will end up perfectly square.

Clint

 

[waho6o9]

Something's out 2.5 mm four times?

Pull the long sides together and add a 3/4" back.

View attachment 1

 

[Holmz]

You have a few screws there.  You might try loosening them up and retightening them with the box square.  You may not even need glue.

 

[Patrick Cox]

If I understand correctly, when measure your diagonals, they differ by 10mm. All you have to do is slightly pull the corners with the longer measurement together during your glue up. Just make sure they match before the glue sets.

Do you have a back in your sysport?  If so, is it square?

If square, it can be a tight fit in your sysport and it will hold the rest of the sysport square as well. If not square, and it's a little bit smaller, it can still hold the case square it it is fastened into place after the case has been squared up by verifying the diagnosis match.

Bottom line, your case will easily rack that amount to where the case will end up perfectly square.

Clint

So you (and I believe waho6o9 is saying the same thing) are saying I should run a clamp across the long diagonal and pull it together so the diagonal is shorter?  If so, where does that 10mm go? 

I plan to attach a 1/4" back and edge trim it to fit.

And finally, what do you mean by it will "rack that amount?"

Thanks for your reply!

 

[Patrick Cox]

You have a few screws there.  You might try loosening them up and retightening them with the box square.  You may not even need glue.

Nothing is attached yet.  The picture is only a dry fit and the measurement is from that dry fit of the but joints that will ultimately be attached with pocket screws.  I actually was not planning on using glue.

 

[Patrick Cox]

Install top, middle, and bottom rails and square it up as best you can.

Are any of the pieces bowed out? Any noticeable gaps?

Or, take everything apart and cut both partitions at once and cut both top and bottom at once
and things should even out better for you.

Really when I look at the dry assembly, it does not look too bad.  There is one corner where the bottom piece is say 1mm or so higher on one edge than it should be but I can easily push it down and hold it together with a clamp.  But the corner measurement is still off.

 

[Holmz]

If I understand correctly, when measure your diagonals, they differ by 10mm. All you have to do is slightly pull the corners with the longer measurement together during your glue up. Just make sure they match before the glue sets.

Do you have a back in your sysport?  If so, is it square?

If square, it can be a tight fit in your sysport and it will hold the rest of the sysport square as well. If not square, and it's a little bit smaller, it can still hold the case square it it is fastened into place after the case has been squared up by verifying the diagnosis match.

Bottom line, your case will easily rack that amount to where the case will end up perfectly square.

Clint

So you (and I believe waho6o9 is saying the same thing) are saying I should run a clamp across the long diagonal and pull it together so the diagonal is shorter?  If so, where does that 10mm go? 

I plan to attach a 1/4" back and edge trim it to fit.

And finally, what do you mean by it will "rack that amount?"

Thanks for your reply!

When half of the 10 is removed it will have jumped across to the other piece as 905/905.
Depending on how you tighten them and in what order it could easily predispose itself to be angled. The pocket screws do not go in at 90 degrees so already there is some racking potential.

 

[tiki man]

Hey Patrick

been making casework for a lot of years.. almost all cases are racked. meaning not the same measurments on your diagonals. once I have fastened my box together with nails, screws, biscuts or dominos how ever, I will use my 1/4 back to square the casework up. back must be cut square....
remember laying flat on the table is not the same as standing a box up also. everything can change with moving a box around a bit. something else is a tap with a rubber mallet on the long measurement should move everything close to matching.

this is of course is only true if you sides and t/bottom are cut to the same dimensions.

good luck and remember the finish product will always come out better then you assume while your are building.. again as long as all parts are cut square and the same...

 

[nclemmons]

Here's what I'd do:

1 Measure from the back of the cabinet.  Use two razor blades to mark your lines and align your rail to the razor blades, clamp them and then remove the razor blades.  It's the most accurate way of getting parallel sides.
2 Cut your front edge on both sides and the top and bottom to be parallel to the backs using the same technique. 
3 Skim cut only.  Then cut the top and bottom edges of the sides to be perpendicular to the backs.    I'd use a carpenter's square to align the rail and cut both sides at the same time to guarantee they are consistent. 
4 Do the same thing on the top and bottoms. 
5 IF you find that you don't have enough width, simply cut a short piece of 3/4 stock a slight thickness of 1/8 or 1/4" and glue and screw it in place to give you some incremental width on the top and bottom.  It will work fine and you won't notice it.
6 Glue in a back that keeps the unit square

In all likelihood you'll have enough play in the Sys-AZ drawers to get them to fit OK without the need for a filler strip.

 

[thudchkr]

If I understand correctly, when measure your diagonals, they differ by 10mm. All you have to do is slightly pull the corners with the longer measurement together during your glue up. Just make sure they match before the glue sets.

Do you have a back in your sysport?  If so, is it square?

If square, it can be a tight fit in your sysport and it will hold the rest of the sysport square as well. If not square, and it's a little bit smaller, it can still hold the case square it it is fastened into place after the case has been squared up by verifying the diagnosis match.

Bottom line, your case will easily rack that amount to where the case will end up perfectly square.

Clint

So you (and I believe waho6o9 is saying the same thing) are saying I should run a clamp across the long diagonal and pull it together so the diagonal is shorter?  If so, where does that 10mm go? 

I plan to attach a 1/4" back and edge trim it to fit.

And finally, what do you mean by it will "rack that amount?"

Thanks for your reply!

Racking is the movement back and forth of the top while the bottom stays fixed.  Meaning that you move the top in one direction until your diagonal measurements match.  If you need a clamp to do so, and hold it there, do that and then attach your back which should hold everything in that same setting. 

You've probably already noticed that it is easy to rack it back and forth with it only being screwed together.  You need to add the back to prevent that racking and that will then hold it square, if the back is attached after the cabinet has been squared up.

Clint

 

[SMJoinery]

Sounds like your simply out of square somewhere.
If you are confident with the size accuracy of your pieces then use a simple calculation to help square it.
Measure the length of one long side internally (inside edge to inside edge) let's call that A.
Measure the length of one short side (top or bottom) internally (inside edge to inside edge) let's call that B.
Do the following calculation. A2 + B2.
This total is called C2. Calculate it back to find C. (Square root)
C is the internal corner to internal corner size that your box should be when square.

 

[Sparktrician]

And finally, what do you mean by it will "rack that amount?"

Simply put, racking is the result of a rectangle turning into a parallelogram in which opposite angles are identical and none equal 90°. 

 

[RKA]

I'm guessing the pocket screws didn't get driven in with the pieces exactly perpendicular and that caused the majority of the issue.  Square up the individual pieces if the need it, slot the back of the pieces to accept the back of the cabinet (inside the slot) if you have enough depth.  As mentioned, a square back will hold it square while you screw it together.  Once the case issues are worked out, go back and check the holes to see if they are parallel equidistant from the top or bottom.  If not, drill, fill with plugs and glue, re drill. 

 

[Michael Kellough]

If the parts are good you don't worry about squaring the box until it's time to secure the back. Then you secure one end (or side) of the back and check the diagonals. Adjust (rack, torque) the diagonals until they are the same and secure the other sides of the back.

If it isn't glued yet take it apart and stake the like parts. If they don't match keep them stacked and trim/re-saw to split the difference, that is cut off whatever corner sticks out past the middle.

As said above, extra care is required when using pocket screws where alignment is critical as the screws tend to move the first piece in the direction of the screw. Sometimes it matters.

 

[Patrick Cox]

Thanks for all of the comments.  They have been very helpful.  As I mentioned in my original post, I was worried that I may have this issue because I did have trouble getting exact parallel and square cuts.  (My main issue was parallel cuts on my rips.)  So I have decided to use this opportunity to improve that part of my workflow.  This week I received a new pair of Festool Parallel Guides and I am going to use this opportunity (and the wood that I have) to fully calibrate the parallel guide scales and then to make test cuts to ensure I can get parallel cuts at my desired measurement.  I will also square off those pieces and ensure I can cut multiple pieces that are all the same size.  I am then going to start over with the Sysports. 

Because of cutting issues I was ending up having to make the sysports slightly smaller than my original intent anyway so this will give me the opportunity to correct that.  And I will consider the initial plywood cost to be educational cost!  So, I'll report back when I get to this point again.

Thanks again for the tips.

Pat