T18 Easy

[AlexThePalex]

Suppose.. have you seen them here in Europe Alex? Through normal distribution channels and national distributors it seems to be non existent.

I haven't seen them here, but I must say I haven't looked much either with the lockdown. All stores were closed except those for the trades, and I didn't make any money to buy Festools anyway.

Seems like a USA only thing right now.

I have briefly seen the PDC 18-4 Compact Frank-Jan mentions. It came quietly and went away even quietlier ....

 

[Dr. P. Venkman]

This was hinted at upthread, but I think it may be just their attempt at some basic price discrimination.  (That sounds pejorative, but it's not an accusatory term. It's the term we learned in economics class a billion years ago for what [member=75217]squall_line[/member] called price-point engineering).

Basically, if the demand for a product suggests that you can sell 1000 drills for $500 or 2000 drills for $300, you choose whatever is most profitable, based on your production costs. 

Even better: sell the first 1000 drills for $500 and then sell another 1000 drills fo $300 to that less motivated group of consumers.  But it can be hard to accomplish.

Student/senior discounts, volume discounts, and declining prices over time are examples.  The other way is to differentiate the product.

I'm guessing the fixed chuck is their product differentiation to try to capture the portion of the market that isn't willing to pay traditional festool prices.  But they have to make it a fixed chuck, because otherwise, the $500 buyers would just by the cheap one and then get the chucks they want separately.

That's my guess, anyway. I don't have any actual insight, so I could be completely wrong. They could have data that says there is a group of consumers out there that really doesn't want or doesn't trust a removable chuck.

I think those that have suggested it could be an attempt to create a modestly priced entry point into the Festool ecosystem may also have a point.  But again, they have to fix the chuck to keep you guys from buying it instead of the $500 version.

 

[DeformedTree]

Basic product line spread.  It cost them a bit of money to make some new parts to make the cheaper drill, but in volume it will be worth it, but it mainly means you can sell the other models at a higher price and make more money, if people want those feature they pay.

Companies do this everyplace, nothing special about it.  You can have products companies sell at a loss.  If selling a product at 300 dollars sells at a loss (say 50 bucks), but it means the similar product you now can sell at 600 dollars, not 400 dollars, because there is now a cheaper option, now you make 250 profit on the same basic item, even if lower sales volume, you will likely come out ahead.

Companies loose money on stuff to maintain steps in products all the time, sometimes they accept loosing a lot of money, like car companies who loose money on most the models they sell, and make it all up with the few high end trim levels, and trucks and SUVs, they sell the rest to fill out the line and keep the plants running and so forth.

Now you have more products where the cheap model and the expensive model are the same thing, same hardware, it's just software locks that prevent you from accessing it, you pay the money for the feature, they update the software for you to get it. It's cheaper to make them all have the same hardware then to leave the hardware out.

 

[mino]

...snip

Correct. Market segmentation is nothing new.

But the T18 Easy is not it.

It literally IS cheaper to make it compared to the "normal" T18+3:
- it uses a bog-standard mass-market chuck ($10 from wholesale)
- it uses a "simpler" shaft with threaded interface instead of the precise-machined Centrotec head with a hex hole in it
- no need for the complicated Centrotec interface for the Jacobs chuck
- no need for the normal Centrotec chuck

Overall, maybe it should be $220 for the basic tool for a cost+ scenario versus the T18. But $199 looks way better...

The normal pack with batteries is a classic loss-leader SKU though. I would not be surprised if it was effectively sold "at cost".
Goal being to get more people on Festool - "any Festool" - and break out of the "too-high-class-for-me" category where it normally stands for most people.

Say what you want, that is no artificial segmentation. But a properly cut-down option with a single SKU having a permanent "DEAL" stamped on it. Nothing more. Nothing less.

 

[slavi.yordanov]

Actually if the kit with Centrotec, Keyless Chuck and Right angle adapter with two batteries and charger is $500, it comes to right about the same price as a T18E kit and buying the Centrotec and right angle separately. Of course you will not be able to use those on the T18E  [big grin]

 

[MrToolJunkie]

Most drills in North America have just a standard chuck and this is Festool's version of it - if you do not use Centrotec bits, then a Jacobs chuck is what you need. Personally I love the whole Centrotec ecosystem and derive value from the different chucks. Many users do not need that kind of versatility and so this drill would make sense - you get all the other hallmarks of a Festool drill (trigger, long battery life, ergonomics, switching between drilling and driving with a switch vs twisting a collar to a torque setting and then drill setting - all at a decent price - or essentially free getting the kit with batteries, charger and Systainer.

 

[JeremyH.]

...snip

Correct. Market segmentationis nothing new.

But the T18 Easy is not it. It literally IS cheaper to make it than the normal T18.
- it uses a bog-standard mass-market chuck ($10 from wholesale)
- it uses a simpler shaft instead of the precise machined Centrotec head
- no need for the complicated Cebtrotec Jacobs
- no need for the normal Centrotec chuck

Overall, maybe it should be $220 for the basic tool for a cost+ scenario versus the T18. But $199 looks way better...

The normal pack with batteries is a classic loss-leader SKU though. I would not be surprised if it was effectively sold at-cost.
Goal being to get more people on Festool - any Festool - and break out of the "too-high-class-for-me" category where it stands for many people.

Say what you want that is no artificial segmentation. But a properly cut-down option with a single SKU having a permanent "DEAL" stamped on it.

Wait, why would I want it if it has shitty parts? I think you're wrong about the parts.

Costs are probably cheaper because of the body and lacking the insert piece that allows registration for the 90* chuck setup and eccentric. I'd hope the chuck itself isn't garbage, because, well, you're buying a Festool...

The piece that holds the chuck appears the same quality as the centrotec version. it just isn't a centrotec.

 

[demographic]

I prefer to use a decent short rattle gun and a good powerful drill than one tool to do both jobs nowadays.
Can't say I'm at all interested on Centrotec when the normal quick change kit is as good as it is but a lot cheaper.

It's very rare indeed that I need a right angled chuck and if its just for putting the odd screw in I'll just use a  ratchetting screwdriver.

 

[mino]

...snip
But the T18 Easy is not it. It literally IS cheaper to make it than the normal T18.
- it uses a bog-standard mass-market chuck ($10 from wholesale)
- it uses a simpler shaft instead of the precise machined Centrotec head
- no need for the complicated Cebtrotec Jacobs
- no need for the normal Centrotec chuck

Overall, maybe it should be $220 for the basic tool for a cost+ scenario versus the T18. But $199 looks way better...
...snop

Wait, why would I want it if it has bad parts? I think you're wrong about the parts.
...
The piece that holds the chuck appears the same quality as the centrotec version. it just isn't a centrotec.

I said cheaper, NOT worse.

The Easy model uses a standard 1/2 threaded chuck. These are produced by mass-market makers*) in the millions. That makes them way cheaper to make/contract than the custom Centrotec Jacobs chucks.

The shaft end can be the same quality - most likely is - but it is still cheaper to make. It is way easier to make/contract a standard 1/2" threaded shaft with limited accuracy requirements (thread instead of a precise bushing) and no need for embedded exact hex-hole.
My guesstimate is that at-same-material the threaded shaft is easily in the 50-60% cost range versus the Centrotec one. In addition, the Centrotec end is more demanding on material quality => Festool can use a lower-performance material for same-end-strength simply because a threaded joint is way less demanding on the material than the Centrotec-style joint is.

Simply said, the Centrotec chucks system is expensive not only to buy but also to make. No need to look for conspiracies.

*)By "bog standard" I meant stuff the big players like Metabo, Bosch, Hikoki put on their high end tools.
Cheap /*but still good*/ chucks go for for $3-$4 wholesale. Not $10 I mentioned ...
The Festool Jacobs net cost will be in the 2x-4x times the 1/2" chuck cost. Assuming same durability design. Festool is making them in way, way lower volumes than the standard threaded ones are made and the internals are more complicated and thus require additional precision manuf. steps.

 

[faizamaze]

Here is a picture to illustrate my point.

Sorry, noob here but how did you remove the fixed chuck?

 

[slavi.yordanov]

Here is a picture to illustrate my point.

Sorry, noob here but how did you remove the fixed chuck?

You have to open the drill, and take apart the gearbox.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Mini Me]

If I am not mistaken Festool already had the tooling for the Easy from years ago. Protool had a 4 speed drill with fixed chuck which the US may not have seen but was sold in Oz. When the Protool brand was abandoned here Festool sold the remaining stock by discounting them about $550 from retail so I bought two, one with the hammer facility and one without. I am not a great user of Centrotec and I needed an 18V drill at the time. I also have a C12 and the only reason I bought it was because at the time I wanted a brushless motor in 12V, the Centrotec system it came with did not hold a great interest for me because I already had a lot of 1/4 hex drive tooling and a huge collection of conventional drill bits. One thing I do use is the Festool counter sink, eye wateringly expensive but oh so good after having made at least 20,000 countersinks.

 

[demographic]

Its a fairly standard mechine just to keep people within the Festool battery platform.

And (Gasp) some people just really couldn't care less about centrotec.

 

[Coen]

Most companies spam SKU's just for the sake of it. Let Festool have it's slightly different T18. Who cares? Don't want it? Don't buy it. Someone in that company probably figured this was the right move. But contrary with the Systainer3... you can still buy your beloved version with the special chuck.

I don't remember the set version or the separate chucks selling very well, so probably most people use the jacob's chuck all the time. You even need the special Festool bit holder to make any use of the smaller Centrotec chuck. It might amaze the average forum user, but most people including most Festool users, really don't have a clue about little nice details like that.

A lot of us on this forum are tool geeks, but that's not the average user.

Just like the average user might never notice the nixed Systainer heights I'm so pissed about.

 

[faizamaze]

Here is a picture to illustrate my point.

Sorry, noob here but how did you remove the fixed chuck?

You have to open the drill, and take apart the gearbox.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Thanks! Sigh I opened the gearbox and got to the last part, I think it was the carrier. I couldn't get it off. Got scared and put everything back together. Is there a certain tool needed to get it off?

 

[Mini Me]

Most companies spam SKU's just for the sake of it. Let Festool have it's slightly different T18. Who cares? Don't want it? Don't buy it. Someone in that company probably figured this was the right move. But contrary with the Systainer3... you can still buy your beloved version with the special chuck.

I don't remember the set version or the separate chucks selling very well, so probably most people use the jacob's chuck all the time. You even need the special Festool bit holder to make any use of the smaller Centrotec chuck. It might amaze the average forum user, but most people including most Festool users, really don't have a clue about little nice details like that.

A lot of us on this forum are tool geeks, but that's not the average user.

Just like the average user might never notice the nixed Systainer heights I'm so ticked about.

There are a lot of different approaches to tools and for me it is pretty straight forward, it is a tool and nothing more. I couldn't care less about systainers, they get the same treatment as all other cases that tools come in and that is I get rid of them straightaway, usually in the rubbish bin. The idea of having to open and pack away a drill when I might use it every day does not appeal to me at all but it obviously does to others and it sure looks good. Every tool I have has a place and gets returned to that after use because I am somewhat OCD but plastic boxes are not part of that but I would not criticise others for using them. If I have to work away from home (very rarely) I back the car into the workshop and throw everything I need into it. I guess I have not got the Festool religion but that is just me.

 

[slavi.yordanov]

Here is a picture to illustrate my point.

Sorry, noob here but how did you remove the fixed chuck?

You have to open the drill, and take apart the gearbox.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Thanks! Sigh I opened the gearbox and got to the last part, I think it was the carrier. I couldn't get it off. Got scared and put everything back together. Is there a certain tool needed to get it off?

I have used a small flathead screwdriver to remove the retainer ring

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk