Talk Me Out of Returning the Domino 500 - Not happy with it

[ctc1111]

Maybe about two weeks ago I bought a domino 500 kit, and the systainer with assorted dominos to go with it. As we all know, the bill came to $1,100-$1,200 something (can't remember exactly). So lets keep that in mind with what I'm about to go with this one.

Now I'm a festool fan, I have the CT26, the 1400 router, 125 rotax sander, bunch of extra systainers, etc.. I'm in love with the 'system' and quality, dust collection, etc.. Enough so that I am able to justify the price for my hobbyist/ light commercial uses. I've been bitten by the festool bug. Hell I kept the CT in the dining room for the first week I owned it just so I could stare at it all the time!

As far as the Domino goes, I just don't feel satisfied with it. Every time I use it, I feel horrified that I spent that much money on the thing. I'm not so much blaming the tool itself, but more its minimal margin for error and learning curve. I tried using it making a flag holder from maple. There was many angles on the piece that prevented it from being used at all for the project. I tried using it on column wraps and the slightest misjudgment of domino placement screwed up my work on the wraps that took many days to complete (again had to go back to pocket screws to get it done). Then I tried it on vanity face frames (large 61" vanity) and got about 70% of them right, with the remaining becoming trash. Again, the slightest misjudgment and I had a misalignment of the joint maybe only 32nd of an inch. I got frustrated enough with it that I cut up all the domino face frames, threw them out, and redid them all with pocket screws. Then after watching many tutorials on drawer construction with a Domino, I started construction on vanity drawers with 1/2" maple. Again, one drawer came out OK (not perfect alignment), and the others were total trash causing me to waste $100 or so in maple.

Sometimes the dominos are so tight they need to be hammered in, other times they fit just right. Then when I bump up the "looseness" setting, I feel it defeats the purpose of the joint as it has so much wiggle room that the joint again becomes majorly dependent on the glue.

Now I am experienced in the craft, it is not my first time learning a new tool. So I do understand that with any new tool there is a learning curve to be expected. And I honestly don't feel like this is the tools fault, I'm sure its something I'm doing wrong, or maybe I just have the wrong approach with the tool. If I paid $300 or so for it, I wouldn't be as concerned. But this thing cost more than pretty much any tool in my well outfitted shop (even the big ones that weight in around 400-500 pounds), so I feel that my room for tolerance is much much lower on such an expensive handheld unit, and my expectations were through the roof high. I thought this thing would be a game changer..

So my question really comes down to what would you guys do? Did anyone else have frustrations starting out with the Domino that soon went away once really learning the tool? Can anyone give me insight as to how the Festool 30 day guarantee works? I just feel that for the $1,200 or whatever I have into the set up, I should have had an awesome experience from the start. Not constant frustration and hundreds in wasted wood and man hours...

I'm seriously debating taking advantage of the Festool 30 day guarantee and trading it in for a MFT/3 and TS55 saw as I do not own a track saw. As far as the work I do, I am heavily into trim carpentry. Built ins, paneled wainscoting, column wraps, newel posts, cabinets/casework, cabinet doors, drawers, pull outs, mantels, etc.. Not much furniture building yet, although I cannot imagine making a piece of furniture and not using traditional joinery (classic M & T, pegged, drawbored, etc).

The point is that the price tag sets expectations very very high, and I just don't feel that my expectations were met.

 

[GPowers]

Getting the correct Domino  fit has a lot to do with how you hold the machine and the speed you plunge.  The plunge should be slow and steady. And according the Steve Brace you need to hold the machine by the tail end. The big a-ha moment, for me, was when i realized that it was NOT necessary to CENTER the Domino in the work piece, just make sure to "reference' to correct surface.

But If you are unhappy return it. Thant is what the 30 day trial is all about.

 

[ajones]

They are a good machine and like any machine it will need a set of skills to use it proficiently and it will have its limitations. I would not try and persuade you to keep it.
If you dont think its for you take it back while you can

 

[NiteWalkerGR]

I've had my domino 500 since the end of may, and have used it on a ton of projects.
For me, I've had the best results when I cut one set of mortices on the tight setting, and the opposing mortices on the middle setting.
Giving yourself a bit of wiggle room doesn't really hurt joint strength as you'd be relying on glue anyway. With my old shop made morticing jig (used with a router) I would cut the mortices a bit wider than the loose tenons and never once had a joint fail or show signs of weakness.

The domino does have a small learning curve, but it really is small. I was cutting predictable joints after abusing a few scraps of poplar.
I probably would have done a few more practice cuts if I had to do something with a lot of angles.

 

[CarolinaNomad]

I love my Domino 500 and it has improved my game, but I'm not as experienced as you.  So my tolerance level is low.

But for the majority of the work you do, the domino sounds perfect.  So I hope someone here can pipe in and help you achieve the high quality result your should expect with Festool.

What makes the domino great also makes it create errors and that is the mobility of the unit.  If it was a stationary unit, errors of technique would be limited, but it's not so one has to be more careful of the technique.  As for the technique (I'll do my best trying to explain it), ideally, once aligned, one should stand back from the domino, not over it.  And place all the pressure on the handle not the drill handle.  When your ready to plunge, plunge slowly with no pressure up or down.  The drill on the domino is slow.

As for the tight fit setting, when doing a row of domino's, only one needs to be a tight fit.  Also, when using tight fit setting, try to use the stops more so than placing a line.

I have also found when using the domino, using the lines to align the placement in a row of dominos creates small errors when using tight setting.  However, I've had great luck with using the tight settings while using the stops.

As for those unique angles, I think Paul Marcel (but I'm not sure now) posted pictures or a video of making a jig that allowed him to do repeatable domino's on those odd angles.

Jeff

 

[Birdhunter]

Perhaps, there are two factors at work here.

One, you paid a lot for a tool. Two, the tool needs a high degree of expertise to obtain high precision results.

Only you can make peace with the cost issue. No one can help you with that.

The second issue is one of expertise. It can be solved.

I've owned my Domino 500 for a couple of years and I use it a lot for precision work as well as for some rough carpentry work. I still do test cuts on scrap as a part of every setup. The Domino is a complex system and demands a reasonable degree of competence from the user. Properly used, the machine is fully capable of extremely fine tolerance work. The 3 tightness settings are there for a good reason as they allow for a degree of flexibility in cutting the mortises.

If you can make peace with the cost issue, I'd suggest keeping the machine if you are willing to learn its use.

 

[ctc1111]

I say "talk me out of returning" because I really want to be happy with it. I'm trying real hard to like it.

A lot of good points brought up here. Like I said, I'm sure its a learning curve like most things in life, its just a tough pill to swallow due to the price.

I'm going to spend some time with it tonight and see where I can go with it. I'm just such a heavy pocket screw user as it cuts clamps out of the equation. Obviously its not acceptable for furniture, but nothing really comes close for finish carpentry as most items are 'one sided' allowing me to hide the screws easily.

I'll be honest the biggest attraction I had to purchase the Domino 500 is I wanted to use it to assemble exterior grade railings with balusters for my front farmers porch. I just have never been wild about toenailing a 15 ga finish nail through each one to prevent the spinning as it never really lasts. Also routing out squares into atleast the top rail proves to take way too long, and plugging pocket holes is just as time consuming.

Maybe I'll put together a quick rail tonight and see when I think of the unit then...

But that MFT/3 and TS55 set up looks mighty attractive, especially since I already have the 1400 router that can run on the same track.

 

[iamnothim]

I've had my Domino 500 since early may.  For me it is a game changer.
It has enabled me to do woodworking projects I could never tackle before.  Like attaching the struts on the shelf in the picture.
I plan on attempting building a console and it will be a critical tool in pulling of the design.

As others have said you have to be very steady and smoothly push the bit into the work piece.
It is critical that the workpiece is very well secured and the mark aligned with the crosshair.  I have an MFT/3 and that's not a problem.
For cabinet work I purchased the Domiplate.  It's a great add-on.  Alignment is right on.  The other tool that helps me a lot is
a Woodpecker "Story Stick"  This helps me make and transfer the alignment marks on both workpieces perfectly.

One of my projects had a compound miter corner.  I was really fretting cutting the mortices.  It was much ado about nothing.  So easy.
I think you should go to the bench and make a lot of practice mortices.  Also check out Paul-Marcel halfinchshy blog on calibrating the
alignment wind.  This is critical.

 

[tbellemare]

As has been said, plunge slowly but smoothly and deliberately.

Make certain you are leaning on the fence horn pretty seriously to stabilize things before starting the plunge. That will make it significantly easier. Also, as has been stated above, make certain you are referencing off the correct surface each time. A common mistake is to think you are referencing the fence off the top of the work piece when you are really referencing the sole off the table. That happens when the work piece is less than 20mm a lot.

It is, however, possible to use it sort of "freehand" with a small bit. I recently made about 60 4mm mortises in some 3/4 x 8' and 6' poplar strips while watching sports and sitting on our living room couch. I had to use one hand to pinch the fence to the work (because using the horn was not available) and the other to plunge. Once you get used to the machine/bit/work piece combination, it is pretty easy. It never hurts to do a couple of practice mortises to get the feel for that combination in use at the time.

Tom

 

[SittingElf]

I've had my Domino 500 since early may.  For me it is a game changer.
It has enabled me to do woodworking projects I could never tackle before.  Like attaching the struts on the shelf in the picture.
I plan on attempting building a console and it will be a critical tool in pulling of the design.

As others have said you have to be very steady and smoothly push the bit into the work piece.
It is critical that the workpiece is very well secured and the mark aligned with the crosshair.  I have an MFT/3 and that's not a problem.
For cabinet work I purchased the Domiplate.  It's a great add-on.  Alignment is right on.  The other tool that helps me a lot is
a Woodpecker "Story Stick"  This helps me make and transfer the alignment marks on both workpieces perfectly.

One of my projects had a compound miter corner.  I was really fretting cutting the mortices.  It was much ado about nothing.  So easy.
I think you should go to the bench and make a lot of practice mortices.  Also check out Paul-Marcel halfinchshy blog on calibrating the
alignment wind.  This is critical.

Wow!  Love the work...AND the antique radio cabinet in the corner!

NICE!!

Frank

 

[pettyconstruction]

I say,
Get some scrap wood ,and use the crud out of it for 29 days.
If at that time,you are not happy,send it back.
No shame.
You may,sometime down the road,change your mind and give it another try. Practice ,practice,practice.

 

[iamnothim]

Thank you Frank

CTC..  I inserted the photos to illustrate a build that I could never accomplish with pocket screws.  It required mortices along the top edge of the cleat to attach the back edge of the shelf to the cleat.  Sure I could use rear pocket screws and attach the cleat to the shelf before hanging it but it would be extremely difficult to line up the scribed shelf with the wall.

I also couldn't use pocket screws for the struts because they are too thin and the holes would be unsightly.  Hence mortices.  But here's the kicker.  I can't make a mortice by hand.  Not one.  Let alone a row that has to line up.  The Domino made it all possible.

Keep practicing.  You are making cabinets, you have a very nice, well equipped  shop, And..... you know you want to make furniture.  KEEP IT

 

[Sparktrician]

I think you're expecting that your financial outlay should immediately translate into instant productivity improvements without an investment on your part in understanding how the tool works.  This is a precision instrument that has a learning curve that is steeper than a more common tool, and frankly, Festool's documentation generally lacks insight into procedures.  You would do well to go to Waterfront Woods and download the documents pertaining to the Domino tool.  Then go to Jerry Work's document on the Domino on Festool's site and read this document thoroughly.  Once you gave this info in your mind, then make a decision as to whether to keep the tool or not.  I, like others, have used the tool for several years and really like it, but I, like others, have attended Festool's end user training and have practiced on scraps many times until it suddenly clicked in for me.  My biscuit joiner is gone now, having not been used since the Domino arrived.  Give it a chance to shine and help it do so by learning its idiosyncrasies before the 30-day trial period expires.  The Domino truly IS a game-changer.

 

[grbmds]

I say "talk me out of returning" because I really want to be happy with it. I'm trying real hard to like it.

I'm not sure why you want to be talked out of returning it. I say try it for 30 days on various scraps that emulate possible projects or on some actual projects you are doing right now. If, after several weeks, you feel the same way, you should absolutely return it. There is nothing worse than having an expensive tool in which you don't have confidence or which you don't feel works for the projects you do or the way it's supposed to. I have some of those and didn't have the option of using them for 30 days and returning them. I think the Domino offers an easy, accurate way to make mortise and tenon joints in a variety of scenarios, many of which you would not otherwise be able to easily make the joint. There are many other ways to join wood and other methods to cut motise and tenon joints. I think I've tried most of them (fortunatlely or unfortunately). Even having a Domino, I would expect I may still come across a project for which it might not be possible to use the Domino in place of another method. I think it excels at things like face frames, boxes, drawers, and many similar projects. Plus, although I have not yet used it enough to know, I think that it is likely very useful for cutting an M & T joint in odd locations on furniture and in unusual angles. So, I hope you use it enough over the next 30 days to help you make the decision. If it doesn't work for you, it doesn't.

 

[Roseland]

I only got my Domino at the end of April, and my first attempts with it were mixed.  But then I got a Domiplate and it has been a game-changer; alignment is to all intents and purposes perfect.  I can't imagine being without it now.

Andrew

 

[ctc1111]

Interesting, I just looked it up and that looks like a VERY useful attachment for it. Shocking they don't provide a similar attachment for the insane money the unit costs. And I was really taken by the one single cutter head provided with the unit.. Really, can't give us the 4 or 5 piece set? I felt like I might as well bend over, take out the vaseline, and plan on a long night when I was stroking that check in Woodcraft... And then I get home to see only one bit in the case.  

I was having a major issue trying to figure out how to evenly space a mortise in the end grain of a 1/2" piece of maple. I was stacking pieces of wood under it, and trying to get it to all line up...

I might purchase one of these and see if it changes my opinion. It looks like it could solve a lot of my issues.

Ditto. The Domiplate is excellent and currently the only method for which I use the Domino. As other projects come along, I'll use the Domino in an variety of settings but for now, the Domiplate works with everything I'm working on and gives flush joints with no fuss.

Tools help in productivity but do not make a woodworker a master craftsman, experience is the key which requires lots of practice. I am no master craftsman and will never be.

I only got my Domino at the end of April, and my first attempts with it were mixed.  But then I got a Domiplate and it has been a game-changer; alignment is to all intents and purposes perfect.  I can't imagine being without it now.

Andrew

 

[VW mick]

Ctc1111

I've recently got a domino and I really like it .but I do think it needs a completely new way of looking at how you do things

And there is a big learning curve .

But I've fully bought into it and am up for learning

 

[NiteWalkerGR]

The domiplate is definitely worth it. Solid as a rock. [smile]

 

[iamnothim]

Interesting, I just looked it up and that looks like a VERY useful attachment for it. Shocking they don't provide a similar attachment for the insane money the unit costs. And I was really taken by the one single cutter head provided with the unit.. Really, can't give us the 4 or 5 piece set? I felt like I might as well bend over, take out the vaseline, and plan on a long night when I was stroking that check in Woodcraft... And then I get home to see only one bit in the case.  

I thought you said you purchased the Assortment of Dominos....  It comes with 5 bits.

 

[grbmds]

What about the thickness guide on the Domino? I realize it may not be quite as accurate or as solid to use, but doesn't it serve essentially the same purpose?